Putting "revenue protection" over customer convenience

[infobleep]

There also those with broken season tickets/gold cards which are rejected with an 09, or "AAA" gold cards that don't work through some barriers.

Are broken season tickets unusual. I thought the magnet stripe regularly went! Lol

What is an AAA Gold Card?

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[greaterwest]

Are broken season tickets unusual. I thought the magnet stripe regularly went! Lol

What is an AAA Gold Card?

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

Broken seasons are the norm.

Also Available At, e.g. Between London Terminals & Frimley, AAA Farnborough. This ticket will not go through Farnborough's barriers and will throw a 116. I'm sure there are other examples on the network, I think I saw a between London Terminals & Sunningdale, AAA Woking ticket once, which will not work through Woking's barriers.

 

[MikeWh]

In the morning peaks I have noticed that, however, I have been charged a non railcard & peak fare more than once when the station clocks say 18:59 from both East and West Croydon. In East Croydon some of the clocks aren't even synced.

Do you have any journey history for those occasions. I have touched in at other stations at 1857, 1858 and 1859 and every time the fare was off-peak.

 

[island]

But what if there is no ticket office, or if the ticket office is closed?

The standard arrangements in NRCOC section 3 will apply.

If it says seek assistance after you tap and Oyster card and you then tap again and go through because it worked, does the law technically allow for this, even if in practice they wouldn't care as your making a valid journey and you didn't need staff help.

Yes, of course it's valid to tap your Oyster card and pass out through the barrier. Pushing through is wrong. Indeed, gates with the latest software will display "try again" or "use only one card" rather than or in addition to "seek assistance" if applicable.

What exactly is a non-standard/unusual ticket ?

A ticket is either valid to travel to or via a particular station or it is not. Why should someone with a valid ticket, freely sold by a TOC or an agent, "need" to wait ?

It is wildly impractical, if it's even possible at all given memory constraints, for a ticket gate to be programmed with every possible ticket type, origin, and destination it might reasonably encounter, never mind those it won't. The vast majority of travellers use single, return, or season tickets with an origin of the station where they get on the train and a destination of where they get off, or vice-versa, or to travel within a series of defined zones. A law of diminishing returns applies until such a time as our complicated routeing system becomes capable of being comprehended by a limited-memory microcontroller in a ticket gate and interpreted in under a second.

Setting a gateline to understand whether a Super Off-Peak Return from Stone Crossing to Steeton & Silsden (which for the purpose of the discussion shall be defined as an "unusual ticket") should be valid to open the gates at Stevenage is not a remotely good use of someone's time.

 

[Bevan Price]

I have had a few issues with the Leeds barriers in the past and I'm not entirely sure what their problem is.

1) Last August, I put a rover in it and not only was it rejected, the gate started chewing it up to the extent that the magnetic stripe was completely damaged. I was refused a replacement by multiple Northern ticket offices.
.

Waste of time putting most rovers in ticket gates - I don't think any gates can be trusted to recognise them. Some gates (outside London) recognise "one day" rangers, etc., - but this is inconsistent. A West Midland Day Ranger let me exit Birmingham New St. recently, but would not let me back in a few minutes later (after a short visit to the nearby Ian Allan shop)

 

[island]

Waste of time putting most rovers in ticket gates - I don't think any gates can be trusted to recognise them. Some gates (outside London) recognise "one day" rangers, etc., - but this is inconsistent. A West Midland Day Ranger let me exit Birmingham New St. recently, but would not let me back in a few minutes later (after a short visit to the nearby Ian Allan shop)

That was probably just a passback prevention.

 

[Bevan Price]

The problem is that we have a very blunt policy view from the DfT which is "gates are good" whereas reality and passenger / business needs are much more nuanced and there is more than one way to solve a problem. One day the DfT *might* come to understand this but I'm not holding my breath given what they've done with the disaggregation approach for SEFT / smart ticketing.

Does anyone expect the DfT to produce any sensible ideas relating to rail travel ? Remember, that is the same organisation that seems to think that 1 and 2 coach dmus are adequate for some busy routes.

 

[sheff1]

It is wildly impractical, if it's even possible at all given memory constraints, for a ticket gate to be programmed with every possible ticket type, origin, and destination it might reasonably encounter, never mind those it won't.

Setting a gateline to understand whether a Super Off-Peak Return from Stone Crossing to Steeton & Silsden (which for the purpose of the discussion shall be defined as an "unusual ticket") should be valid to open the gates at Stevenage is not a remotely good use of someone's time.

I can see your point (although the old fashioned ticket checkers sitting in a booth seemed quite capable of handling BoJ on "unusual" tickets) but I see no need for a "ticket not valid at this location" message to appear in such cases when that statement is a blatant untruth.

I have been shown this message a number of times when travelling on what is quite clearly the most direct route between the stations on the ticket. Mind you, the best was at Leeds where, apparently, a ticket from Leeds to Sheffield was "not valid at this location"

 

[rg177]

Have experienced the "Not valid at this location" error in the most hilarious situations too. Newcastle to York advance single. Not valid at Newcastle apparently

 

[infobleep]

Broken seasons are the norm.

Also Available At, e.g. Between London Terminals & Frimley, AAA Farnborough. This ticket will not go through Farnborough's barriers and will throw a 116. I'm sure there are other examples on the network, I think I saw a between London Terminals & Sunningdale, AAA Woking ticket once, which will not work through Woking's barriers.

Interesting. Thank you for that.

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[BurtonM]

I wait with excitement to see how useless the Manchester Piccadilly gateline will be.

 

[David Goddard]

We were at Birmingham New Street on Saturday and our n-Network "Daytripper" tickets were rejected by the gates. What a faff when a ticket valid on all bar three trains per hour from that station is perceived as not valid. The member of staff opened the side gate but just laughed when I commented on the barrier's non acceptance.

 

[Taunton]

The Waterloo installation, with what I read was 170 barriers, started off well, with no real impediment to progress. What I increasingly notice, however, is staff now blocking off both ways (by setting both to red) of the barriers furthest from their position, so enforcing all to queue up and go through nearest the staff member on duty to supervise them. The whole idea of the barrier numbers, which must have cost a considerable amount, was to avoid queues, but now they get set in ways to cause this.

 

[sheff1]

I wait with excitement to see how useless the Manchester Piccadilly gateline will be.

I am expecting it to be on a par with Leeds. i.e. completely useless in preventing someone knowingly travelling without a valid ticket exiting or entering at will, but rejecting valid tickets from those naive enough to think the barrier will accept them.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....1) Last August, I put a rover in it and not only was it rejected, the gate started chewing it up to the extent that the magnetic stripe was completely damaged. I was refused a replacement by multiple Northern ticket offices....

There is no process in place for the re-issuing of a rover ticket, this will be why a replacement was consistently refused.

 

[Senex]

There is no process in place for the re-issuing of a rover ticket, this will be why a replacement was consistently refused.

So does the ticket remain available for the remainder of its period of validity but by manual inspection only, or is the railway effectively cancelling the ticket for the remainder of its validity because of a problem that is its own responsibility?

 

[Bletchleyite]

So does the ticket remain available for the remainder of its period of validity but by manual inspection only, or is the railway effectively cancelling the ticket for the remainder of its validity because of a problem that is its own responsibility?

Magstripe failure does not invalidate a ticket.

 

[rg177]

There is no process in place for the re-issuing of a rover ticket, this will be why a replacement was consistently refused.

Fair do's, can imagine that by the time you consider how many people buy rovers then out of that how many get damaged by rogue ticket gates, the number of people needing them reissued will be close to zero.

But at day 2 of 7 in its validity period I was just naturally frustrated I'd have to spend most of the week using manual gates and getting told to put it in the gates only for it to fail. If I remember rightly though I avoided too many issues.

 

[tankmc]

Try getting out of Cambridge in either peak or anytime on a weekend. With huge amount of tourists and so few barriers it makes it a nightmare. Especially with bikes and then people crowding around the exit waiting to enter the station. At times the platform gets dangerously overcrowded especially in delays where people just hang around platform one waiting for some information.

The whole station is a nightmare and should not have barriers until they sorted the station out.

On top of this my local station Downham Market has one ticket machine. I need to arrive at the station 15-20 minutes early to guarantee getting a ticket.

The other day i turned up 15 minutes early and the ticket office was closed when it should be open, regular occurrence, and there was a queue of 20 people waiting for the machine. The machine is incredibly slow, particularly when it prints out TWO tickets per passenger for a day return which i would say 99% of people are getting. By the time the train arrived there was still 7 or 8 people in front of me and with the train's been only one a hour i had no choice but to get on the train.

Once i arrived at Cambridge the staff where non existent with only one person so overwhelmed with the huge amounts of people needing assistance he just told me to go though not even bothering to ask why I did not have a ticket or selling me one.

 

[DarloRich]

the one eyedness of many posters on this thread is quite funny.

 

[Ianno87]

Try getting out of Cambridge in either peak or anytime on a weekend. With huge amount of tourists and so few barriers it makes it a nightmare. Especially with bikes and then people crowding around the exit waiting to enter the station. At times the platform gets dangerously overcrowded especially in delays where people just hang around platform one waiting for some information.

The whole station is a nightmare and should not have barriers until they sorted the station out.

On top of this my local station Downham Market has one ticket machine. I need to arrive at the station 15-20 minutes early to guarantee getting a ticket.

The other day i turned up 15 minutes early and the ticket office was closed when it should be open, regular occurrence, and there was a queue of 20 people waiting for the machine. The machine is incredibly slow, particularly when it prints out TWO tickets per passenger for a day return which i would say 99% of people are getting. By the time the train arrived there was still 7 or 8 people in front of me and with the train's been only one a hour i had no choice but to get on the train.

Once i arrived at Cambridge the staff where non existent with only one person so overwhelmed with the huge amounts of people needing assistance he just told me to go though not even bothering to ask why I did not have a ticket or selling me one.

Greater Anglia are required to keep the ungated side entrances adjacent to Platforms 3 and 6 open at busy times until rebuilding of the main entrance is completed with extra gates.

It doesn't help that the clutter on the platform (particularly on P1 - the main London platform most of the day) means that people tend to congregate immediately outside the barriers waiting for information.

The side gates have a manual inspection on them maybe 60% of the time - the Platform 6 exit is still narrow and gets congested when a London train tips out on Platform 4.

 

[Antman]

I'm wondering at what point will customer convenience stop taking second place to revenue protection.


* Yesterday morning at 08:50 I couldn't buy an Offpeak ticket from a Ticket Machine for a off-peak 09:00. So after queuing at the ticket machines, I then had to queue at the manned desk. The lady said it was because there was still a fast (peak) train.


* Ticket barriers - Always fun queuing at them at under-provisioned stations when you're on a busy train. Also being shepparded all the way around the station to go through them rather than use the nearby exit which doesn't have barriers and is thus closed to the public (sometimes excepting peak times) is also fun!


* Queues of 40+ people waiting at what passes for "unpaid fares" (a single guy standing next to the disabled/bike gate with one of those hand-held things).


* Not being able to get out of the gates at 09:25 because your train is earlier than usual and your ticket is off-peak.


* Being woken (or interrupted) by ticket inspectors, sometimes repeatedly if the inspector changes during the journey.

I get that there are people who don't pay fares, but this lot must cost a fortune - not just for the "revenue protection" folks and kit, but also time wasted for the passengers. Given a large chunk of the railways is public subsidy anyway, this seems rather wasteful.

Any other examples of where revenue protection comes first?

In fairness I did witness the exact opposite at Dartford one Sunday recently, the ticket office was closed due to staffing reasons and there was an enormous queue at the one machine so they opened the barriers and waved everyone through and asked that they pay at their destination and in the event of any problem tell them to ring Dartford. Shouldn't that be standard practice in such circumstances?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Despite the expense they all cost less than having the required number of ticket inspectors though which is why they're used. Same reason why TVMs are taking over from staffed desks.

Machines have to follow the instructions they're programmed to so won't sell off peak tickets before 0930 because it's been told to. A person can advise of the restriction and sell it.

I see the current trend continuing to be honest. TOCs will never be able to catch everyone so it's a case of making life as difficult as possible to deter opportunists and to do so cheaply.

I think that just about sums it up. Of course ticket gates aren't much use though when they are left wide open as happens at many Southeastern stations in particularly.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Oh yes, this is an annoying problem at East Croydon. 3 barrier lines. All too often all the staff (typically 3) are standing at one end of the main barrier chatting to each other. PAX have to "interrupt" them to get their attention if they have a problem. On one occasion I got a bag trapped on one of the side barriers and despite the alarm sounding, nobody came over. A friend had to fetch one of the staff who clearly resented the disturbance.

A friend of mine works at East Croydon, I'll mention it to him when I see him

London Bridge is much the same, I had to interrupt a 'staff meeting' recently as my ticket wouldn't open the gate, eventually one of them opened it without so much as a glance at my ticket which rather defeats the whole purpose of the ticket gates:roll:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

the one eyedness of many posters on this thread is quite funny.

What's that supposed to mean?

 

[route:oxford]

the one eyedness of many posters on this thread is quite funny.

Indeed

The institutionalised mindset.

 

[Taunton]

On top of this my local station Downham Market has one ticket machine. I need to arrive at the station 15-20 minutes early to guarantee getting a ticket.

Was not one of the aspects of the fatal accident to the two girls at Elsenham station some years ago, same line, that there was only one ticket window and one TVM, on the London-bound platform, and these two passengers from the village, which lies on the opposite side of the line, who were travelling to Cambridge, had to cross the tracks on an unguarded foot crossing, where they spent nearly 10 minutes buying tickets due to others ahead in the queue, and then had to recross the tracks by the crossing just at the time when their train was expected.

 

[island]

Try getting out of Cambridge in either peak or anytime on a weekend. With huge amount of tourists and so few barriers it makes it a nightmare. Especially with bikes and then people crowding around the exit waiting to enter the station. At times the platform gets dangerously overcrowded especially in delays where people just hang around platform one waiting for some information.

The whole station is a nightmare and should not have barriers until they sorted the station out.

On top of this my local station Downham Market has one ticket machine. I need to arrive at the station 15-20 minutes early to guarantee getting a ticket.

The other day i turned up 15 minutes early and the ticket office was closed when it should be open, regular occurrence, and there was a queue of 20 people waiting for the machine. The machine is incredibly slow, particularly when it prints out TWO tickets per passenger for a day return which i would say 99% of people are getting. By the time the train arrived there was still 7 or 8 people in front of me and with the train's been only one a hour i had no choice but to get on the train.

Of course you had a choice. Just not a very good or convenient one.

 

[gsnedders]

If the barrier has displayed a "seek assistance" message and you instead push through, that would be an offence of passing through a ticket gate otherwise than in the proper manner.

Whether something is or is not "moral" or "reasonable" is not relevant to the law. Or at least, not to this one.

I've waited at a barrier for five minutes because it's said "seek assistance" because there were no staff anywhere near (and that really is a safety risk, surely?!)… I saw sorely tempted to try and force it. Yes, that's totally against all the rules, but it's a frequent occurrence at Glasgow Central Low Level, and ScotRail don't seem to give a toss about it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

the one eyedness of many posters on this thread is quite funny.

To be fair, I think the majority of my issues here aren't so much with barriers as the specific British implementation of it, combined with British staff attitudes (yes, I know that's tainting all of us, but the fact that staff frequently don't know what they're doing, are unwilling to ask for help, and really just don't want to be there makes for a bad combination with barriers).

I thought I hated barriers, but then I saw how most stations in Japan implement them, and never had a single problem. Of course, this is largely combined with a ticketing system that allows smartcards to be used for what probably amounts to the majority of journeys.

 

[Antman]

I've waited at a barrier for five minutes because it's said "seek assistance" because there were no staff anywhere near (and that really is a safety risk, surely?!)… I saw sorely tempted to try and force it. Yes, that's totally against all the rules, but it's a frequent occurrence at Glasgow Central Low Level, and ScotRail don't seem to give a toss about it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I was told by a member of Southern staff that it was a breach of H&S laws to leave barriers unstaffed, presumably this applies to all TOC's and shouldn't action be taken against TOC's not complying? In the circumstances I probably would have forced it.

 

[yorksrob]

I was told by a member of Southern staff that it was a breach of H&S laws to leave barriers unstaffed, presumably this applies to all TOC's and shouldn't action be taken against TOC's not complying? In the circumstances I probably would have forced it.

I've seen the barriers at the new entrance at Leeds left closed with no one around before. Don't know whether they're remotely monitored though.

 

[najaB]

I was told by a member of Southern staff that it was a breach of H&S laws to leave barriers unstaffed...

Not if they are remotely monitored, and I'm not sure if it's specifically against H&S legislation anyway.

 

[YorkshireLass]

Broken seasons are the norm.

Also Available At, e.g. Between London Terminals & Frimley, AAA Farnborough. This ticket will not go through Farnborough's barriers and will throw a 116. I'm sure there are other examples on the network, I think I saw a between London Terminals & Sunningdale, AAA Woking ticket once, which will not work through Woking's barriers.

Alas, as the owner of a magstripe defective season ticket the gates at Manchester Victoria have provided new joy in the form of sarcastic gateline staff giving it "yeah, right" and "everyone says that" when I explain there's no point putting the ticket in the gate as it will just spit it out again. Sometimes, if they're particularly grumpy I'll insist on demonstrating that it doesn't work which usually ends with them wordlessly letting me out. :mad:


Can't wait to repeat the experience at Piccadilly...