Questions about driving trains.

[Welshman]

evoluzione & driver9000 -
Thank you to you both.

 

[SPADTrap]

View attachment 19657
There's a flag switch - see the yellow/black flag in the offside window of the train shown. When it's raised, the motor weak field is enabled. It's designed like this so as to make it visible from outside the train, allowing managers to check with a glance whether any trains have weak field enabled in the tunnel sections.

That's interesting! Done some digging but couldn't find much, I'm assuming weak field isn't permitted in certain sections?

 

[PermitToTravel]

That's interesting! Done some digging but couldn't find much, I'm assuming weak field isn't permitted in certain sections?

According to the late District Dave's excellent website, weak field on the District line is not to be used between Turnham Green/Putney Bridge and Bow Road. In general it's not to be used in the tunnel/covered sections.



Signs can be seen at some stations reminding drivers to raise/lower the switch as appropriate.

 

[atraindriver]

Make sure you get a good instructor because these DMUs are very different beasts to EMUs. I went from the same traction card as you to Cl170s and I still don't fully understand them. I think my instructor imagined that I had previous diesel experience and assumed that there were things I already knew about their design, systems and operation.

I drove 170s from their introduction on Central in 2000 until CT was split up. I don't think that at any time during that period anyone involved with them actually understood the things. Certainly my traction training was full of "Hang on, the book says that shouldn't happen!"

I wasn't sorry to see the back of 170s. My left arm still aches thinking of the combination of that controller handle with the stupid short left armrest meaning there was absolutely no support for your left arm or wrist.

And then there were...
- the habit of wheelslip at 15mph on even dry rails;
- the variability in power which meant you could never be quite sure which power notch you needed to get the same effect from the same unit on the same stretch of line from one trip to the next;
- the annoying half-power feature which meant you didn't get full power until anywhere from 10-15mph; not a problem when running inter-urban stopping every 20 minutes, but when stopping every 3 minutes?
- the brakes which in comparison with 150/153/156 Sprinters were crap, unless you selected step 3 at which point everyone in the train joined you in the front cab;

I didn't like 170s at all. Does it show?

 

[notadriver]

No point in using full power from a standing start in a dmu with mechanical transmission. The extra power is wasted as heat. That's why they instruct Sprinter drivers etc not to start select full power until approx 10-15 mph is reached.

Diesel electrics such as class Voyagers seem to be different and full power can be used earlier ?

Is the class 22x the best modern diesel unit to drive ? My vote for the best EMU to drive would be one without a gangway in the middle. A 390 or 395

 

[atraindriver]

No point in using full power from a standing start in a dmu with mechanical transmission. The extra power is wasted at heat.

If you ever get the chance, you might like to try playing with a Sprinter and seeing the effect of using the various power notches to reach 10mph. You'll find that your assertion that there's no point using full power doesn't quite correlate with what actually happens.

That's why they instruct Sprinter drivers etc not to start select full power until approx 10-15 mph is reached.

That's not an instruction I've ever seen.

 

[TDK]

No point in using full power from a standing start in a dmu with mechanical transmission. The extra power is wasted at heat. That's why they instruct Sprinter drivers etc not to start select full power until approx 10-15 mph is reached.

Diesel electrics such as class Voyagers seem to be different and full power can be used earlier ?

Is the class 22x the best modern diesel unit to drive ? My vote for the best EMU to drive would be one without a gangway in the middle. A 390 or 395

The Perkins 158 units have a known throttle control problem with most when selecting notch 1, 2 or 3 don't even move, you do not get any proper acceleration until you select notch 5, the Cummings engine 158's are fine as are the 150's, 153's and 156's. Unfortunately the Perkins engine 158's have a mechanical throttle control that is exceptionally difficult to set up correctly where the Cummings engines sprinters have an electronic throttle control. Even so when driving a 158 I will select notch 2 to start to fill the gearbox up with oil then to 4 and see if it moves and at about 3 mph up to 5, 15mph up to 6 and 25 mph up to 7 depending on gradient. I have found that by doing this way in a 158 you get the best torque, power and acceleration up to 55 mph when the fluid coupling takes over.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If you ever get the chance, you might like to try playing with a Sprinter and seeing the effect of using the various power notches to reach 10mph. You'll find that your assertion that there's no point using full power doesn't quite correlate with what actually happens.


That's not an instruction I've ever seen.

It is an instruction where I work and if you select notch 7 from start you will get your ear bent by a Traction Inspector. Notching up to 7 too soon is bad practice.

 

[Strat-tastic]

OK here's one about the dead man's device. How hard is it to keep it engaged for ages on end?

I imagine that if I had a pedal I had to keep depressed with my feet (while sitting down) with sufficient pressure to prevent it springing back up, I would only manage a few minutes at best before my leg muscles tired. Is it that your muscles develop to enable you to keep it depressed for a few hours, or is it easier than I imagine?

 

[vikingdriver]

OK here's one about the dead man's device. How hard is it to keep it engaged for ages on end?

I imagine that if I had a pedal I had to keep depressed with my feet (while sitting down) with sufficient pressure to prevent it springing back up, I would only manage a few minutes at best before my leg muscles tired. Is it that your muscles develop to enable you to keep it depressed for a few hours, or is it easier than I imagine?

I can't speak for all trains, but it doesn't require much force at all to keep it depressed on our 158/9s.

 

[evoluzione]

OK here's one about the dead man's device. How hard is it to keep it engaged for ages on end?

I imagine that if I had a pedal I had to keep depressed with my feet (while sitting down) with sufficient pressure to prevent it springing back up, I would only manage a few minutes at best before my leg muscles tired. Is it that your muscles develop to enable you to keep it depressed for a few hours, or is it easier than I imagine?

It does not require much force to keep the pedal down but constant pressure is needed and some are more comfortable then others, oddly I find 142's the best as the DSD pedal is in front of you and angled so it's quite comfy to stretch both your legs out on.

156's can be a bit of squeeze for your legs under the desk.

Most with vigilance are usually ok, 150/2, 158 etc except when it's hot and you've got windows open.

150/1 though can be a pain, we have a few units which when the DSD is depressed, it sits below the floor level, making it a little uncomfortable to keep down as you can only really get one foot on it at a time, also makes it easy to drop, and by the time you here the tell tale click of the pedal moving up it's usually too late and the brakes dump
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The Perkins 158 units have a known throttle control problem with most when selecting notch 1, 2 or 3 don't even move, you do not get any proper acceleration until you select notch 5, the Cummings engine 158's are fine as are the 150's, 153's and 156's. Unfortunately the Perkins engine 158's have a mechanical throttle control that is exceptionally difficult to set up correctly where the Cummings engines sprinters have an electronic throttle control. Even so when driving a 158 I will select notch 2 to start to fill the gearbox up with oil then to 4 and see if it moves and at about 3 mph up to 5, 15mph up to 6 and 25 mph up to 7 depending on gradient. I have found that by doing this way in a 158 you get the best torque, power and acceleration up to 55 mph when the fluid coupling takes over.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


It is an instruction where I work and if you select notch 7 from start you will get your ear bent by a Traction Inspector. Notching up to 7 too soon is bad practice.

Same here, 3-5-7 is what they want to see, was downloaded a while back, everything was perfect apart from departing final station, I opened straight to 7 for some reason, it got marked on the download and I was rebriefed on correct throttle control.

Agree with 158's especially our 2 car units, these need notch 5 before they move especially on a gradient.

 

[driver_m]

OK here's one about the dead man's device. How hard is it to keep it engaged for ages on end?

I imagine that if I had a pedal I had to keep depressed with my feet (while sitting down) with sufficient pressure to prevent it springing back up, I would only manage a few minutes at best before my leg muscles tired. Is it that your muscles develop to enable you to keep it depressed for a few hours, or is it easier than I imagine?

You get used to them, it becomes (mostly) second nature, until you learn a second traction and then the little differences stand out. I personally don't like the dsd on the voyager, it can be uncomfortable compared to a pendo.

 

[Jamesb1974]

OK here's one about the dead man's device. How hard is it to keep it engaged for ages on end?

I imagine that if I had a pedal I had to keep depressed with my feet (while sitting down) with sufficient pressure to prevent it springing back up, I would only manage a few minutes at best before my leg muscles tired. Is it that your muscles develop to enable you to keep it depressed for a few hours, or is it easier than I imagine?

As other drivers have already said, it is not that difficult at all. It is the differences between classes that makes you notice it. Class 60 & 66 Dsd/vigilance pedals are quite lightly sprung, whereas a 92 has quite a strong spring (in comparison).

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Easiest method to deal with DSD & Vigilance alarm is to move the power controller every few seconds.

455 DSD are quite light & make a click, 444/450/456/158/159/442 just sound the viggy alarm as soon as the pressure on the microswitch is released, don't do anything within about 3-5 seconds, the emergency brake applies & you get a nice red flashing light on the TPWS panel & an embarrassing chat with the signaller!

 

[notadriver]

If you ever get the chance, you might like to try playing with a Sprinter and seeing the effect of using the various power notches to reach 10mph. You'll find that your assertion that there's no point using full power doesn't quite correlate with what actually happens.


That's not an instruction I've ever seen.

Actually thinking about it from the time I drove a 150 you're probably right. The instruction I'm not sure where I saw that.

 

[driver9000]

455 DSD are quite light & make a click, 444/450/456/158/159/442 just sound the viggy alarm as soon as the pressure on the microswitch is released, don't do anything within about 3-5 seconds, the emergency brake applies & you get a nice red flashing light on the TPWS panel & an embarrassing chat with the signaller!

Really? Nothing I've driven has had the DSD/Vigilance tied into the TPWS Brake demand light. On the units I've driven if you drop the DSD or fail to reset the Vigilance the brake will release as soon as the train stops. Interesting to learn that.

 

[dk1]

Must admit I usually open at 3 until rolling then 5 & then 7 at about 15mph. If I'm in a bad mood or running late it's straight to 7 just like the driver manager drove when accompanying me last month!!

 

[Llama]

Really? Nothing I've driven has had the DSD/Vigilance tied into the TPWS Brake demand light. On the units I've driven if you drop the DSD or fail to reset the Vigilance the brake will release as soon as the train stops. Interesting to learn that.

The DSD/Vigilance won't be linked to the TPWS, that is a totally separate system on every type of traction unit.

A brake application caused by the DSD/Vig would no more give you a TPWS brake demand than say a brake demand caused by a passcom being pulled, or low main res pressure.

If you ever did find yourself with having dropped the DSD/Vig and also with a brake demand light flashing on the TPWS, you will have two lots of paperwork to fill in as the TPWS will have activated separately.

It is important that drivers are fully aware of what will initiate a TPWS brake demand, ie to reduce the likelihood of TPWS reset-and-continue incidents due to lack of understanding:
-AWS warning not acknowledged (whether driver or on-train equipment fault).
-Detection of TPWS arming then trigger loops (of related frequencies) within 0.974 seconds (+/- 2%, for passenger unit timings) - so any instance of trains exceeding the set-speed at OSS or any movement over TSS.
-other faults with on-train or infrastructure equipment.
-driver error, ie failing to operate train stop override button when required, or failing to operate TPWS temporary override when required (TBW, P2 working with more than one signal to be passed, on-train equipment fault, driving from other than leading cab, etc).

 

[atraindriver]

It is an instruction where I work and if you select notch 7 from start you will get your ear bent by a Traction Inspector. Notching up to 7 too soon is bad practice.

Training where I work is to select a low notch to fill the gearbox then to go straight to 7, with the train pretty much starting to move in 7.
0-3(or 4)-7 is usual, and that's how new drivers are trained. Been like that for 20 years or more, so I'm assuming that it's felt to be OK by the Powers That Be.

I prefer to notch open with 153/156; the only notch I tend not to use is 1, unless experience of the individual unit tells me that notching won't work - some of our 153s in particular seem to respond badly to notching and only give full power if the 0-low-7 sequence is used.

 

[Phil H]

From set off, how far does the locomotive move before the end of a freight train starts to move aswell?

When trains are driving with the engine at the rear, what differences are required as on curves and points as there must be the urge for resistance to want to make the rolling stock ride outwards and over the outer edge of the rail?

How is the rear engine controlled from the non powered front DVT / DSBO etc?

When some freights pass near our house they have terrible sounding bogies, either like a rattley trolley or there's flat spots on wheels. How does a driver ascertain whether they are serious enough to stop a train and how would he know if there was a derail?

Does an engine and a wagon / carriage need an MOT per se?

 

[carriageline]

The only question I feel qualified to answer is the "terrible sounding bogie" one. I don't really think the driver would notice (unless maybe it was right behind him but even then..) normally a passing train, station staff, or track workers will hear it go past and report it to the signaller, who then (tries) to put him in a suitable place to have a quick look around it.

Derailments, it's not been known for the driver not to realise for some time, mainly a loss of power or loss of air if a hose got ruptured! In some cases, the signaller probably sees all the track circuits stay occupied and points go out of correspondence where it starts chopping the cables!

I believe locos and wagons etc have inspections, but further details I do not have!


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[sprinterguy]

How is the rear engine controlled from the non powered front DVT / DSBO etc?

Until quite recently, Time Division Multiplexing was the standard method of controlling a propelling locomotive from a DVT or DBSO in the UK. This sends electronic pulses to the locomotive, in the case of the mark 3s via the lighting circuits.

I’m not sure of the similarities and differences of the modern AAR system that is now in use by Chiltern and ATW.

When some freights pass near our house they have terrible sounding bogies, either like a rattley trolley or there's flat spots on wheels. How does a driver ascertain whether they are serious enough to stop a train and how would he know if there was a derail?

A driver of a long freight train may not be aware of any wheel flats in the consist once on the move. As carriageline has said, it’s much more likely that they would be identified from the lineside. Traditionally, a signaller in his ‘box would probably be the first to become aware of something, but with so few traditional signalboxes left now that’s no longer generally the case.

In the modern age, wheel flats are picked up by the Wheelchex sensors that are set up at many locations around the network. An excessive impact on the railhead caused by a flat spot on the wheel will sound an alarm which goes to Network Rail Operations Control. See here for a more detailed answer:

http://www.scot-rail.co.uk/page/WheelChex
WheelChex is a brand name for a Wheel Impact Load Detector (WILD) system used by Network Rail.

This line-side equipment measures the impact upon the railhead of each wheel of a passing train (eg, if it has a wheel flat), and provides details of all trains with wheel loads outside acceptable limits.

When an alarm message is generated by WheelChex, Network Rail Operations Control will identify the train involved and notify the signaller at the centre through which the train will shortly pass.

This will enable the train to be stopped at a suitable location for the driver to examine the wheel-sets concerned.

The train can then be taken out of service, or speed restricted to minimse the possibility of derailments or damage to track caused by wheel defects or overloaded vehicles.

 

[jon91]

Derailments, it's not been known for the driver not to realise for some time, mainly a loss of power or loss of air if a hose got ruptured! In some cases, the signaller probably sees all the track circuits stay occupied and points go out of correspondence where it starts chopping the cables!

I can think of several incidents where a freight has derailed for a short distance and rerailed itself, all without any indication to the driver. As you say the only indication of something having gone boo boo is when track circuits and points unexpectedly fail.

One incident that sticks out to me is when a freight train derailed, damaged the track around a set of points near Reading in 2012, the wheels rerailed themselves and the driver continued for about 40 minutes unaware of what had happened. It was only when the signaller asked the driver to examine his train that damage was found to the derailed wheelsets! There's a full report on the incident here: http://www.raib.gov.uk/publications/investigation_reports/reports_2013/report022013.cfm

 

[Whistler40145]

Is there a minimum level of fault finding a Driver has to carry out before the train is declared a failure?

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Is there a minimum level of fault finding a Driver has to carry out before the train is declared a failure?

We get about 2' to do our basic cab checks,such as line light,MR,BC,MA Ind.(455),MCB panel,Fault Panel (450/444),TMS (450/444/458), DSI light (455).

Stick your head out of the window & check for BIL or Hazard lights. Then use the GSMR & call Phone A Fiend for technical help if you can't find out what's wrong.

Last time I used it,I'd already diagnosed the problem before,he'd started. A knackered camshaft,being a single unit,I had to go for a walk and get assistance. Laying dets and letting them off at 7.30am on a Sunday morning next to an expensive apartment block.

I would suspect I was about as popular as pork at a bar mizvah!

 

[dakta]

Laying dets and letting them off at 7.30am on a Sunday morning next to an expensive apartment block.

I now need a new keyboard

 

[455driver]

Laying dets and letting them off at 7.30am on a Sunday morning next to an expensive apartment block.

I would suspect I was about as popular as pork at a bar mitzvah!

Go on admit it, you were smiling inside when the dets went off werent you!

 

[carriageline]

I can think of several incidents where a freight has derailed for a short distance and rerailed itself, all without any indication to the driver. As you say the only indication of something having gone boo boo is when track circuits and points unexpectedly fail.



One incident that sticks out to me is when a freight train derailed, damaged the track around a set of points near Reading in 2012, the wheels rerailed themselves and the driver continued for about 40 minutes unaware of what had happened. It was only when the signaller asked the driver to examine his train that damage was found to the derailed wheelsets! There's a full report on the incident here: http://www.raib.gov.uk/publications/investigation_reports/reports_2013/report022013.cfm

Sorry that was my awful use of negatives there! What I was meant to say was it's not unheard of for a wagon to derail and the driver not even realise immediately


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[TDK]

Easiest method to deal with DSD & Vigilance alarm is to move the power controller every few seconds.

455 DSD are quite light & make a click, 444/450/456/158/159/442 just sound the viggy alarm as soon as the pressure on the microswitch is released, don't do anything within about 3-5 seconds, the emergency brake applies & you get a nice red flashing light on the TPWS panel & an embarrassing chat with the signaller!

Hmmm guessing are we? You are obviously not a train driver then. For instance nearly all vigilance/DSD are set to 7 seconds or above. You do not get a TPWS brake demand light if you drop the DSD and it would not be an embarrassing chat with the signal man!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

We get about 2' to do our basic cab checks,such as line light,MR,BC,MA Ind.(455),MCB panel,Fault Panel (450/444),TMS (450/444/458), DSI light (455).

Stick your head out of the window & check for BIL or Hazard lights. Then use the GSMR & call Phone A Fiend for technical help if you can't find out what's wrong.

Last time I used it,I'd already diagnosed the problem before,he'd started. A knackered camshaft,being a single unit,I had to go for a walk and get assistance. Laying dets and letting them off at 7.30am on a Sunday morning next to an expensive apartment block.

I would suspect I was about as popular as pork at a bar mizvah!

I may be wrong Harley but I think you are full of it, so how did you diagnose a knackered camshaft and your contingency plan is 2 minutes before you declare yourself as a failure? Sorry Harley but I just don't believe what you are saying!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Is there a minimum level of fault finding a Driver has to carry out before the train is declared a failure?

That all depends on the traction, the time constraints on the affected line and the fault itself. Every company has it's own contingency plan and it is mainly down to the traction type.

 

[carriageline]

And plus, I would rather he rang us (signallers) first before ringing the Phone-a-friend line, and we have the means to patch them through anyway. Nothing worse for a train to sit down, and having no idea why! Although it really isn't unheard of for drivers to ring the wrong people first!


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[Bigfoot]

And plus, I would rather he rang us (signallers) first before ringing the Phone-a-friend line, and we have the means to patch them through anyway. Nothing worse for a train to sit down, and having no idea why! Although it really isn't unheard of for drivers to ring the wrong people first!


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Unless of course that you are told by the signaller to contact paf yourself. No patching. Easily dialable using Gsmr phone book anyway.