Questions about driving trains.

[notadriver]

I think longer distance work is easier as there are less stops so less potential for wrongside door releases and/or stopping short with trains of varying length. I've also found that stopping trains in the London area often run under cautionary signal aspects whereas long distance train drivers will usually see green signals.

 

[TOCDriver]

What are the differences you find in concentration levels between long distance driving and shorter intense stopping work?

There shouldn't be any difference. You should be concentrating 100 percent of the time be it a 10 min run or a 2 hour run. having said that, DOO services in inner cities would be far more taxing on your mental state than a 2 hour VT run between Glasgow and Lancaster; but drivers should still be concentrating 100 percent of the time, no matter what they're doing

 

[SkinnyDave]

Hi TOC,
I accept that, perhaps concentration levels was not the best way to phrase my ? but you have both provided answers I was looking for

Cheers

 

[DunfordBridge]

To get back on topic I created this thread for people to ask train drivers about aspects of the role. Did you have any questions you wanted to ask us DunfordBridge?

Quite an interesting thread too, the debate over the past few days has on the whole been fascinating.

Before I get on with some programing, I had a passing interest as to how driving around the capital compared with driving in other parts of the country, which has been explained by your post about running on cautionary aspects.

 

[TOCDriver]

Hi TOC,
I accept that, perhaps concentration levels was not the best way to phrase my ? but you have both provided answers I was looking for

Cheers

Another enemy of the driver is complacency. Believe you me, it is a very easy trap to fall into if you're not careful. You may well think that that signal is going to clear when you approach it, which it may well do 99 percent of the time, but you will fall victim to a SPAD when it doesn't on the odd occasion. Assume nothing was a phrase drilled into me by my DI and sound advice it is too.

 

[Beveridges]

Another enemy of the driver is complacency. Believe you me, it is a very easy trap to fall into if you're not careful. You may well think that that signal is going to clear when you approach it, which it may well do 99 percent of the time, but you will fall victim to a SPAD when it doesn't on the odd occasion. Assume nothing was a phrase drilled into me by my DI and sound advice it is too.

Complacency can take to extreme levels too, how often I hear about drivers who used to read the news paper while on the move... (I could say a lot more, but I won't, in case a manager who shouldn't be here is on here...)

 

[TDK]

Another enemy of the driver is complacency. Believe you me, it is a very easy trap to fall into if you're not careful. You may well think that that signal is going to clear when you approach it, which it may well do 99 percent of the time, but you will fall victim to a SPAD when it doesn't on the odd occasion. Assume nothing was a phrase drilled into me by my DI and sound advice it is too.

Yes indeed - I would say at least 75% of SPADs are due to complacency. You will find a driver with between 2 and 5 years experience are more likely to have an incident than the other drivers however any driver could have an incident no matter h9w experienced or non experienced they are. I have had driver say "how can any driver have a SPAD" to find that within a year they have had incidents. My DI said to me "every red signal you have to stop at is a potential SPAD risk so if you control your train to minimise stopping at a red this will assist you over the years" never a more true word said.
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Quite an interesting thread too, the debate over the past few days has on the whole been fascinating.

Before I get on with some programing, I had a passing interest as to how driving around the capital compared with driving in other parts of the country, which has been explained by your post about running on cautionary aspects.

I used to work from Selhurst depot on the southern doing mainly metro work this was very intense. I moved to Crewe with Wales and Borders and in comparison to me it was a walk in the park. I have also taken trains into Manchester Piccadilly, Liverpool Lime Street, Marylebone, Birmingham New Street and there is just no comparison when you have taken trains into London Bridge, Victoria and Charing Cross.

 

[BravoGolfMike]

Yes indeed - I would say at least 75% of SPADs are due to complacency. You will find a driver with between 2 and 5 years experience are more likely to have an incident than the other drivers however any driver could have an incident no matter h9w experienced or non experienced they are. I have had driver say "how can any driver have a SPAD" to find that within a year they have had incidents. My DI said to me "every red signal you have to stop at is a potential SPAD risk so if you control your train to minimise stopping at a red this will assist you over the years" never a more true word said.
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Maybe for the company you work for, TDK, but not mine and at least one other I know of. The most inexperienced driver in the company I work for who has SPAD'ed this year has 8 years main line qualified. Last year, 90% of drivers who had a SPAD had more than 5 years experience. In fact, my manager has mentioned that a company with similar service patterns in another part of the country is experiencing exactly the same trend.

Not saying complacency isn't a big factor, but the guys and girls with less than 5 years are not the ones having the incidents.

 

[Silv1983]

Maybe for the company you work for, TDK, but not mine and at least one other I know of. The most inexperienced driver in the company I work for who has SPAD'ed this year has 8 years main line qualified. Last year, 90% of drivers who had a SPAD had more than 5 years experience. In fact, my manager has mentioned that a company with similar service patterns in another part of the country is experiencing exactly the same trend.

Not saying complacency isn't a big factor, but the guys and girls with less than 5 years are not the ones having the incidents.

Agreed. Two driver instructors have spadded in the last few months at a depot up here - and a driver with 28 years in has had one. No new drivers, PQAs or drivers with less than 5 years in have spadded recently. I think in the first few years it's all hands to pumps in term of concentration.

 

[TDK]

Agreed. Two driver instructors have spadded in the last few months at a depot up here - and a driver with 28 years in has had one. No new drivers, PQAs or drivers with less than 5 years in have spadded recently. I think in the first few years it's all hands to pumps in term of concentration.

You need to look at the ratio and percentage of drivers and the amount of incidents to get a true outlook of the figures, for instance if you have 100 drivers at a depot and 10 of them are PQ, 20 of them have 5 years or less that leaves 70% of them with 5 years or more experience. Maybe I should have said, statistically it is more of a risk for a driver to have a SPAD or other operational incident in year 2 to 5. I studied this subject intensively country wide for 3 years from 2005 to 2008 and these were my findings. We have had a lul but recently the statistics have gone back to those figures I concluded. If you want a link to evidence PM me and I will furnish with the recent report, OK I have the figures as the site I use is restricted and I cannot give a link.

These figures are per 1000 drivers:-

0 - 2 years 12
2 - 4 years 26
4 - 8 years 17
8 - 12 years 15
12 - 15 years 19
15 - 20 years 21

This is country wide and includes all drivers whether they are TOC, FOC or OTM drivers over a period of 5 years up until December 2012..
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I presume that storm was between 4pm & 5pm on Friday,it effected a good part of the area,it was so intense I pulled off the road due to zero viability,
I do not think you have a bloated ego,nor does anyone else,I find you explain to us non rail people how a train driver carries out his complex duties in an understandable way.

Yes, that was the storm, I was doing 75mph at the time in a class 158 so you can imagine what it was like if you couldn't see anything from your car

 

[Will.C]

As a freight driver are there different rules etc according to what kind of cargo you're delivering? For instance drivers who drive the Nuclear Flasks, being quite a possibly dangerous cargo, can you only stop in certain places?

 

[Cherry_Picker]

There is a module in the rule book known as the "pink pages" which deal with the movement of dangerous goods. Basically you get given more stuff to read.

http://www.rssb.co.uk/RGS/Pages/RULEBOOKANDOTHERPUBLICATIONS.aspx

 

[TOCDriver]

Not saying complacency isn't a big factor, but the guys and girls with less than 5 years are not the ones having the incidents.

I find that the more experienced drivers tend to be the most complacent. Those who are quite fresh tend to remember what their generally wise DI's have drilled into them. (which, in my view, just shows you how high a standard today's training is) I have been driving for 6.5 years now and I can still see and hear the ghost of my good friend and DI when I'm in the cab. This is just a personal opinion, but I really do believe complacency is the most significant danger to the train driver. I always have it at the fore front of my mind when driving and if i ever do become a DI or DTM, I will make sure my drivers will never forget it too.

 

[TDK]

I find that the more experienced drivers tend to be the most complacent. Those who are quite fresh tend to remember what their generally wise DI's have drilled into them. (which, in my view, just shows you how high a standard today's training is) I have been driving for 6.5 years now and I can still see and hear the ghost of my good friend and DI when I'm in the cab. This is just a personal opinion, but I really do believe complacency is the most significant danger to the train driver. I always have it at the fore front of my mind when driving and if i ever do become a DI or DTM, I will make sure my drivers will never forget it too.

I still remember the words of my DI 15 years into my career, I think you are learning all the time however complacency can happen to anyone at any time from a trainee to a driver with 20 plus years experience. There are may risks involved. For instance a driver who moves companies is at a high risk just after signing their new routes and then again once they know the routes intimately, there is no real base line to refer too but only statistics. Another key factor is attitude you will find some employees have a different attitude to others with some having an attitude that will create a higher risk for those concerned.

 

[TOCDriver]

I still remember the words of my DI 15 years into my career, I think you are learning all the time however complacency can happen to anyone at any time from a trainee to a driver with 20 plus years experience. There are may risks involved. For instance a driver who moves companies is at a high risk just after signing their new routes and then again once they know the routes intimately, there is no real base line to refer too but only statistics. Another key factor is attitude you will find some employees have a different attitude to others with some having an attitude that will create a higher risk for those concerned.

Can't disagree with you about the attitude but luckily the vast vast majority of drivers I know at my depot take their jobs very seriously when in the cab. Outside of it, well, that's a totally different kettle of fish

 

[DunfordBridge]

Today I was wondering how long the procedure takes to prepare a train for duty and what accounts for most of that time.

As far as I understand, where multiple units are concerned, you would start at the trailing cab doing a clockwise check ensuring that the parking brake was off, no systems were isolated for normal running and that no breakers were tripped before making your way to the leading cab to do the same clockwise check and ensuring that safety systems were working.

Of course, the batteries would have to be activated as I aware that they have a short life in the absence of a charging source, be it from the OHLE or the diesel engines. Other considerations would be the display of both external lights and passenger information systems.

On the way between the cabs, I imagine that you would check the external condition of the unit checking that no green door egress handles had been pulled.

As one of the considerations, do the air lines have to be recharged, say if the air lines were discharged of air on previous disposal of the train, say to prevent the air from freezing due to moisture content? I understand that modern units have components such as air-driers, etc.

With no direct experience of this procedure, my knowledge is somewhat sketchy in this area so any feedback, no matter how slight, would be appreciated.

 

[455driver]

Today I was wondering how long the procedure takes to prepare a train for duty and what accounts for most of that time.

It depends on the stock and whether its a full prep or a short prep you are doing.

As far as I understand, where multiple units are concerned, you would start at the trailing cab doing a clockwise check ensuring that the parking brake was off,

Best start at the front cab and make sure the handbrake (where fitted) is on, you dont want to undo the handbrake in the back if the one at the front isnt on!

 

[A-driver]

Today I was wondering how long the procedure takes to prepare a train for duty and what accounts for most of that time.

As far as I understand, where multiple units are concerned, you would start at the trailing cab doing a clockwise check ensuring that the parking brake was off, no systems were isolated for normal running and that no breakers were tripped before making your way to the leading cab to do the same clockwise check and ensuring that safety systems were working.

Of course, the batteries would have to be activated as I aware that they have a short life in the absence of a charging source, be it from the OHLE or the diesel engines. Other considerations would be the display of both external lights and passenger information systems.

On the way between the cabs, I imagine that you would check the external condition of the unit checking that no green door egress handles had been pulled.

As one of the considerations, do the air lines have to be recharged, say if the air lines were discharged of air on previous disposal of the train, say to prevent the air from freezing due to moisture content? I understand that modern units have components such as air-driers, etc.

With no direct experience of this procedure, my knowledge is somewhat sketchy in this area so any feedback, no matter how slight, would be appreciated.

Full prep can include using batteries to activate the aux compressor to raid the panto then you wait for the compressor to charge up the air systems. Thankfully most preps arnt from dead units.

Preps are pretty much as you describe, check inside all cabs for emergency equipment, pretty much a case of press every button to check everything is working, walk through inside opening all doors, walk round outside checking equipment underneath, lights, couplings etc.

How long depends but we get 25mins for a 4car, 35 for an 8 and 45 for a 12 car (55 mins for a 12 car 365).

 

[DunfordBridge]

Best start at the front cab and make sure the handbrake (where fitted) is on, you dont want to undo the handbrake in the back if the one at the front isnt on!

Good point! That would be totally embarrassing, would probably end up in the DM's office faster than you could say AWS.

What is the main difference between a short prep and a long prep?
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Full prep can include using batteries to activate the aux compressor to raid the panto then you wait for the compressor to charge up the air systems. Thankfully most preps arnt from dead units.

Preps are pretty much as you describe, check inside all cabs for emergency equipment, pretty much a case of press every button to check everything is working, walk through inside opening all doors, walk round outside checking equipment underneath, lights, couplings etc.

How long depends but we get 25mins for a 4car, 35 for an 8 and 45 for a 12 car (55 mins for a 12 car 365).

Thanks, A-Driver, that has pretty much answered ny next question about short and long preps. I forgot about the emergency equipment such as detonators and clips, etc.

 

[455driver]

What is the main difference between a short prep and a long prep?

One is shorter than the other!


The short prep is basically above the solebar/internal where-as the full prep includes visually checking everything under the solebar as well.

Basic rules is a full prep is done on depot and a short prep is done in a platform (no access to the underframe).

Different companies have different requirements than others, in some places the prep is done by the depot drivers/night men, others they are done by the driver taking them into service.

 

[SkinnyDave]

What would you say are the most common faults you find with your respective units?

 

[notadriver]

What would you say are the most common faults you find with your respective units?

Motors isolated. Damn annoying.

 

[455driver]

What would you say are the most common faults you find with your respective units?

Doors locked out of use with no lablels applied and nobody sure when or why the doors were isloated because it wasnt phoned through!

 

[TOCDriver]

Light checks are important - making sure they're correctly displaying red or white. That's always one of my first checks. Basically, you're checking that everything works - horn, wipers, air pressures etc depends on traction basically. Some more modern trains have TMS's which tell you of any faults the train may have and you can quite often correct them there and then. The TOC I work for tends to use more vintage stock so doesn't have such luxuries.

 

[TDK]

On the way between the cabs, I imagine that you would check the external condition of the unit checking that no green door egress handles had been pulled.

As one of the considerations, do the air lines have to be recharged, say if the air lines were discharged of air on previous disposal of the train, say to prevent the air from freezing due to moisture content? I understand that modern units have components such as air-driers, etc.

With no direct experience of this procedure, my knowledge is somewhat sketchy in this area so any feedback, no matter how slight, would be appreciated.

If you get a brake release this tells you a lot more than you think, for instance the pass-comms are good, egress, most of the important MCB's, air, door interlock, MRG etc. On the units I prep you have what is called compressor speed up that in facts revs the engines to 2100rpm that speeds up the air charging. You need about 5.5bar or above in the main res to do any checks on the air systems.

A full prep on paper looks like a very daunting task and long winded but when you actually do one it will only take 15 minutes or so, I keep a check list with me to tick off as I go through that helps somewhat.
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What would you say are the most common faults you find with your respective units?

Guards not disposing of the unit properly and leaving the local door switch in is one of them. Low oil sometimes, as 455 says doors locked OOU and not labelled. Repair book not signed off, no washer fluid in the reservoir.

 

[Southern313]

Talking about making sure the handbrake is on. A recently retired driver was jointly responsible for causing much damage to Bognor signal box in the mid 90's when prepping a slammer. After doing the cab at the buffers he popped into the mess room to make tea when a colleague said to him "Your train is rolling away" a curt reply followed before someone else piped up. "No, your train IS rolling away Bob" the sight of a cup of tea flying through the air as said driver legged it after his train is one that our link 1 drivers have never forgotten.

Incidentally, the damage caused can be seen by searching for Bognor signal box on YouTube. The toilet took the full force of the impact and fortunately the signalman had vacated it just ten minutes before!

 

[jon0844]

Firstly they only have a single narrow round border around the 'bulb' so easily get absorbed in bright sunlight but it's mainly down to positioning and wouldn't be such an issue with older style signals which have various viewing angles unlike LEDs which can only be viewed head on.

Not really the fault of an LED, but the design of the light itself - which sounds very poor. Every bulb, bar a few halogen spots, in my house are LEDs and that means the ceiling lights are LEDs - and they spread a light in every direction.

Using multiple surface mount LEDs (as is now common place) means you can easily fire light in any direction. And the lens/diffuser can also play its own part in this.

But, it doesn't surprise me that there are some systems that are not fit for purpose being sold and used, and it's a very poor show for Network Rail which should have the sighting (and siting!) of signals as pretty high priority!

 

[DunfordBridge]

If you get a brake release this tells you a lot more than you think, for instance the pass-comms are good, egress, most of the important MCB's, air, door interlock, MRG etc. On the units I prep you have what is called compressor speed up that in facts revs the engines to 2100rpm that speeds up the air charging. You need about 5.5bar or above in the main res to do any checks on the air systems.

A full prep on paper looks like a very daunting task and long winded but when you actually do one it will only take 15 minutes or so, I keep a check list with me to tick off as I go through that helps somewhat.
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Thanks for that, TDK. What does the acronym MRG stand for by the way?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Talking about making sure the handbrake is on. A recently retired driver was jointly responsible for causing much damage to Bognor signal box in the mid 90's when prepping a slammer.

I was actually working in Bognor Regis around that time. Knew a good watering hole just down from the station with a railway theme.

 

[notadriver]

MRG I'm assuming stands for main reservoir governor - which applies the brakes if main res pressure is 5.5 bar approx or below.

 

[DunfordBridge]

Thanks, Notadriver. The MR part should have been a clue, as in MRPIC.