Questions about driving trains.

[ChrisTheRef]

The only example I can think of where additional training is given is the northern city line between Drayton park and moorgate. A seperate set of rules and regs operate down there but mainly to do with communication and a few slight changes to procedures taken from how London Underground operate (eg seperate rules for passing signals at danger, assisting trains, coasting without power etc). Plus the equipment down there is slightly different such as trip cocks etc.

In Stansted Tunnel, there are local instructions regarding emergency lighting etc, as it's a single line - but again, it all comes under route knowledge.

 

[Welshman]

Can't say I have ever given it a second thought really. Just get on with it. I know the routes well enough to rely on other things to tell where I am and if I loose my bearings at all I just bring the speed right down until I know where I am.

As A-Driver says route knowledge is the key. On the road you should drive to the conditions - I say should because speaking to a few car drivers they reckoned doing 90 in near zero visibility was okay as they had quick reactions (!!). But it is an experience doing that speed in really thick fog. I've heard stories in the old days when cab rides were not uncommon that guests were too scared to sit up front with the driver (!)

Thank you, both, for your replies. I suppose you're trying to imagine what the view would be were the visibility clear - something which must take a great deal of concentration.

I can see such driving takes a great deal of professionalism and route knowledge.

I think I would find travelling at 80-100mph into a thick wall of fog very disconcerting!

 

[DunfordBridge]

Say if a train was in motion and the air pressure in the main reservoir fell beneath some arbitrary reading, would this result in an automatic application of the brakes before the pressure dropped too far?

I am not quite sure what drop you would expect from different parts of the system but could a leak from an ancillary system be sufficient to trigger such an application if the leak was not contained?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I appreciate that on today's railway, signal-sighting in foggy conditions is not as much of a problem as in the days of semaphore signalling and detonators, but I would imagine driving blindly at full line speed through thick fog with little visibility must still call for a strong nerve and full confidence in the system. How do drivers prepare themselves, psychologically, to cope with that?

I suppose with route knowledge, you could go with the number of cues from the AWS but that would not be useful for long signalling blocks. Maybe another pointer would be the difference in sound as a train went over a crossing.

If you were doing a steady sixty, it would be very easy to calculate the distance just by the number of times the DVD sounded. This approach would rely on a relatively level section of track so as not to interrupt the timing of the DVD with throttle movements.

Very good question. I wonder what other cues you could use in very thick fog.

 

[Nym]

Say if a train was in motion and the air pressure in the main reservoir fell beneath some arbitrary reading, would this result in an automatic application of the brakes before the pressure dropped too far?

I am not quite sure what drop you would expect from different parts of the system but could a leak from an ancillary system be sufficient to trigger such an application if the leak was not contained?

For us it depends on the train.

On our conventional trains we have a 'control governor' that detects the air pressure at a point on the train line air, if that isn't high enough you can't take power.

Throughout the evolution of our stock, each has had something to detect the air level, and if there is a failure that prevents the air coming on, the first action is to prevent the train start moving in the first place, and if the air goes completely, the brakes come hard on.

Either by SAPBs (Spring Applied Parking Brakes), or in a more immediate case, brake applications are made automatically. But it would need an absolutely catashtrophic loss of main line air to have the emergency brake come on. Any major loss of train line air will apply the westinghouse automatic brake.

 

[DunfordBridge]

For us it depends on the train.

On our conventional trains we have a 'control governor' that detects the air pressure at a point on the train line air, if that isn't high enough you can't take power.

Throughout the evolution of our stock, each has had something to detect the air level, and if there is a failure that prevents the air coming on, the first action is to prevent the train start moving in the first place, and if the air goes completely, the brakes come hard on.

Either by SAPBs (Spring Applied Parking Brakes), or in a more immediate case, brake applications are made automatically. But it would need an absolutely catashtrophic loss of main line air to have the emergency brake come on. Any major loss of train line air will apply the westinghouse automatic brake.

Thanks for the reply, most informative.

 

[455driver]

I appreciate that on today's railway, signal-sighting in foggy conditions is not as much of a problem as in the days of semaphore signalling and detonators, but I would imagine driving blindly at full line speed through thick fog with little visibility must still call for a strong nerve and full confidence in the system. How do drivers prepare themselves, psychologically, to cope with that?

The systems will help a little but its basically down to the drivers Route Knowledge, you basically 'see' the route in your mind (I do it even if its clear and sunny) and pick up on all the characteristics of the route, bridges, bumps, odd sounds, signals, magnets etc etc.
The systems will save the driver if they eff up but thats about it.

Personally I love doing 90 when you cant see the rails in front of the train and arriving at the station at the correct speed and on time.
Its not so much fun when you are doing 90 and get a single yellow where you normally get a green, then its thinking time!

 

[Nym]

Thanks for the reply, most informative.

Oh, as a PS, SAPBs will not stop a train, or stop it starting, but they will stop it rolling away. Stopping it is almost always an automatic air brake.

 

[Mintona]

Nothing focuses the mind quite so sharply as an unexpected single yellow in the fog

 

[DunfordBridge]

The systems will help a little but its basically down to the drivers Route Knowledge, you basically 'see' the route in your mind (I do it even if its clear and sunny) and pick up on all the characteristics of the route, bridges, bumps, odd sounds, signals, magnets etc etc.
The systems will save the driver if they eff up but thats about it.

Personally I love doing 90 when you cant see the rails in front of the train and arriving at the station at the correct speed and on time.
Its not so much fun when you are doing 90 and get a single yellow where you normally get a green, then its thinking time!

After I made my comments last night, I found myself asking precisely how bad the fog has to be in order to hear the AWS before you see the signal, I appreciate there are a variety of signals in use on the network today but I would imagine that the modern LEDs are more visible in the fog, correct me if I am wrong. I can imagine a single yellow in these circumstances can be quite alarming, particularly if it was freezing fog.

Another possible pointer would be if the line ran parallel to a road for any distance and it was possible to see fog lights on cars, although this may not be guaranteed, given the density of the fog and the reliability of a given car driver.

I have not really had chance to have a proper look but I am surprised that there seems to be no mention in the rule book modules, particularly the ones prefixed by M, about adversely foggy conditions.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Oh, as a PS, SAPBs will not stop a train, or stop it starting, but they will stop it rolling away. Stopping it is almost always an automatic air brake.

Again, another useful point, one which I would not have hitherto considered.

 

[O L Leigh]

For us it depends on the train.

<Snipped for brevity>

Just one or two corrections with relation to modern multiple-unit (MU) passenger stock.

Every vehicle within a MU train has a device called a Low Main Air Governer (LMAG). Normally the main air pressure is around 7 bar, but if the pressure falls below around 5.4 bar anywhere along the train the LMAG on that vehicle will trip and initiate an emergency brake application. This ensures that the train will be stopped before you run out of air completely. There is nothing to prevent you taking power if the air is falling, though.

Yes it is possible that a relatively minor air leak can result in the train coming up in a heap. If the loss of air (together with any air being used) is at rate greater than can be replenished by the air compressor you will eventually lose enough air to trip an LMAG.

As for driving in the fog, yes it can be thick enough so that you can't see a colour light signal until after you've gone over the AWS. I've done it myself and, because I was confident with the route, it didn't slow me down at all. Even though I couldn't see much of anything I knew exactly where I was at all times and had the train under full control. I just took the view that I was fine while I was running on greens, but as soon as I got an AWS caution I would make a good positive brake application. But yes, the simple answer is that it's down to route knowledge.

O L Leigh

 

[A-driver]

I have not really had chance to have a proper look but I am surprised that there seems to be no mention in the rule book modules, particularly the ones prefixed by M, about adversely foggy conditions.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Again, another useful point, one which I would not have hitherto considered.

Why would you need rules about driving in the fog? It's common sense. If you loose your bearings or are in any doubt where you are, where the next signal is etc you slow down until you regain full control. That's really all there is to it.

 

[JoeGJ1984]

Would semaphore signals in fog cause any problems? Would the lights be lit in foggy weather?

 

[notadriver]

Yes they are lit so can be seen in the dark and during fog but of course aren't as visible as colour lights.

 

[Beveridges]

Just one or two corrections with relation to modern multiple-unit (MU) passenger stock.

Every vehicle within a MU train has a device called a Low Main Air Governer (LMAG). Normally the main air pressure is around 7 bar, but if the pressure falls below around 5.4 bar anywhere along the train the LMAG on that vehicle will trip and initiate an emergency brake application. This ensures that the train will be stopped before you run out of air completely. There is nothing to prevent you taking power if the air is falling, though.

Yes it is possible that a relatively minor air leak can result in the train coming up in a heap. If the loss of air (together with any air being used) is at rate greater than can be replenished by the air compressor you will eventually lose enough air to trip an LMAG.

Had that happen plenty of times. This is what often makes the driver turn a unit into a "swinger" (I.e. brakes isolated and hauled/propelled by another one). Extremely common on maintenance depots where moving demic vehicles is a very regular task.

 

[DunfordBridge]

Why would you need rules about driving in the fog? It's common sense. If you loose your bearings or are in any doubt where you are, where the next signal is etc you slow down until you regain full control. That's really all there is to it.

Seemed a perfectly logical deduction to have rules about driving in fog as part of a rule book module as there are other such modules with regard to driving in snow and flooding. Even the highway code has stipulations about driving in fog.

What would the ramifications be, for instance, for the sighting of hazards and obstructions on or near the line when driving in adverse fog?

Thanks again for taking the time to reply to one of my posts.

 

[notadriver]

Seemed a perfectly logical deduction to have rules about driving in fog as part of a rule book module as there are other such modules with regard to driving in snow and flooding. Even the highway code has stipulations about driving in fog.

What would the ramifications be, for instance, for the sighting of hazards and obstructions on or near the line when driving in adverse fog?

Thanks again for taking the time to reply to one of my posts.

In the rulebook TW1 section 14 states :

You must reduce the speed of your train as you consider
necessary, if you cannot see signals at the normal distance during:
• fog
• falling snow, or
• any other poor visibility.
You must not exceed 40 mph during fog or falling snow on a line
where AWS is not provided on the line of route, or is not in use on
the train.


But what is normal distance ? Trains are not driven like cars - ie we do not have to drive at a speed to be able to stop in the distance we see to be clear under normal operations.

If a train hits something on track it is nearly never the train drivers fault. If a vehicle driver does the same thing they are usually part responsible.

 

[A-driver]

Seemed a perfectly logical deduction to have rules about driving in fog as part of a rule book module as there are other such modules with regard to driving in snow and flooding. Even the highway code has stipulations about driving in fog.

What would the ramifications be, for instance, for the sighting of hazards and obstructions on or near the line when driving in adverse fog?

Thanks again for taking the time to reply to one of my posts.

Snow/ice/flooding are mentioned as they can have effect on the safety of the railway infrastructure and traction. The rules are around how various degrees of snowfall or flooding affect the passage of trains-if ballast is moved, if conductor rails are submerged etc.

Plus in snowfall there are additional rules for drivers relating to brakes basically to prevent ice forming on brakes and causing braking problems-this is why there are rules about brake tests, dynamic brake use, speed restrictions etc in snow conditions.

The thing with fog is that it poses little danger with the exception of making it harder for a driver to see. As people have already said, the reason we spend weeks and weeks learning roads before we drive on them is so that we can still drive normally over them when you can't see 10 feet ahead. Your route learning means you know every bridge, tree, shrub, building, fence etc and can use all that to drive almost blind. As I say, it's mainly common sense. If a driver has a spad or misses a station because they couldn't see in the fog then they will still be held fully responsible for it, same as if you miss a station at night because the power fails and you can't see it without the lights being on. Therefore if you are in any doubt about sighting the next red signal or finding a platform or speed restriction then very simply you slow down. That kind of thing dosnt need to be in the rule book as it comes down to experience.

Seeing ahead is only part of the problem in fog anyway. I remember a while ago in very bad fog stopping an 8 car at Welwyn north and having to walk back closing doors manually as I couldn't see past the third coach in the mirrors or look back to dispatch the train due to fog.

As for sighting obstructions, there are hardly any rules about obstructions in any weather as nothing should be obstructing the railway. If you are doing 100mph round a blind curve on a clear day you probably wouldn't spot an obstruction in time to stop either. Fog has little impact on that. Any obstructions on the line are dealt with as an emergency situation and come under the rules laid out for dealing with emergencies throughout various modules.

 

[DunfordBridge]

Some very good input on here. Probably learnt more in one day than what I would normally learn in two weeks.

 

[455driver]

but I would imagine that the modern LEDs are more visible in the fog, correct me if I am wrong.

Personally I dont think any of the new LED signals cut through fog as good as the old signal heads with the exception of the ones which have just had the bulbs replaced with an LED pack and so still have the lens on the front to focus the beam.

I can imagine a single yellow in these circumstances can be quite alarming, particularly if it was freezing fog.

It can be if its not expected.

Another possible pointer would be if the line ran parallel to a road for any distance and it was possible to see fog lights on cars, although this may not be guaranteed, given the density of the fog and the reliability of a given car driver.

Your route knowledge will tell you where that is likely and you should know where all the signals are anyway so seeing the foglights on the cars can actually be more of an aid than a hinderance.

I have not really had chance to have a proper look but I am surprised that there seems to be no mention in the rule book modules, particularly the ones prefixed by M, about adversely foggy conditions.

Because a driver should be able to control his train almost exactly the same as they can in daylight, its all route knowledgeand so shouldnt be a problem.

 

[Nym]

Personally I dont think any of the new LED signals cut through fog as good as the old signal heads with the exception of the ones which have just had the bulbs replaced with an LED pack and so still have the lens on the front to focus the beam.

I'd support that as I don't beleive that NR LED signals make use of lenses where the old lamp signals do, so it doesn't project a beam of light in the direction of the driver like it used to, as such, the scattered (rather than focused) beam would be likely to be less visible in fog.

 

[A-driver]

I'd support that as I don't beleive that NR LED signals make use of lenses where the old lamp signals do, so it doesn't project a beam of light in the direction of the driver like it used to, as such, the scattered (rather than focused) beam would be likely to be less visible in fog.

Often the new LEDs can be worse, especially in daylight for the reason you say- they don't direct the beam.

The new Hitchin flyover is so poor for signal sighting that NR are going to re-asses the signals soon and look at re-angling them and putting up backboards. No idea how anyone ever thought the current signals were suitable as they are absolutely invisible whenever the sun comes out.

Firstly they only have a single narrow round border around the 'bulb' so easily get absorbed in bright sunlight but it's mainly down to positioning and wouldn't be such an issue with older style signals which have various viewing angles unlike LEDs which can only be viewed head on.

The first signal is at the top of the ramp and so from the junction is very hard to see, pretty much all the way until you climb to the top and are inline with it. Infact from the bottom a yellow aspect looks red in bright sunlight and so you can leave Hitchin on a green, get the speed warning AWS so the sunflower is lit and then have a brown trouser moment when hurtling up to the peg at 50-60mph suddenly noticing a red glow from the signal and an 'on' AWS in the cab. The second signal is hidden around a tight left hand bend and so once again is invisible in daylight until around the AWS.

Obviously drivers know about this and drive accordingly but it's not really good enough that a brand new stretch of track and signals can be less than perfect. One would have hoped this would have been taken into account during design, construction and commissioning/ testing, not left to become an issue once opened.

 

[rebmcr]

Often the new LEDs can be worse, especially in daylight for the reason you say- they don't direct the beam.

LEDs can only be viewed head on.

That's actually the problem but for a different reason — each individual LED has its own lens, the actual light source is just a tiny flat chip on a circuit board. The glass/plastic dome is purely there for focusing & physical protection.

Obviously from what you've said, the lensing on them is too efficient and either needs changing for a wide angle design, or putting behind a secondary diffuser/lens combo.

 

[TDK]

Seen that, thanks Nym.
?


Oh they used to fly along, pity the brakes were not upgraded at the same time, I have heard of many a driver comming unstuck when they arrive at their normal braking point going a lot quicker than they were expecting, not that it ever happened to me, honest!

Have you driven the old slam door stock with the EP brake and auto brake?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I appreciate that on today's railway, signal-sighting in foggy conditions is not as much of a problem as in the days of semaphore signalling and detonators, but I would imagine driving blindly at full line speed through thick fog with little visibility must still call for a strong nerve and full confidence in the system. How do drivers prepare themselves, psychologically, to cope with that?

I went through a very heavy rain shower only the day before yesterday and literally had zero visibility, I never educed speed until I knew I was approaching a signal that could have been at caution and when I went over the AWS and got a clear I knew the signal was a green aspect and continued. Fortunately the rain cleared after about 5 minutes and the line speed was 75mph. It didn't phase me at all because I knew exactly where I was, the gradient and the distance from the signal I was anticipating.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

After I made my comments last night, I found myself asking precisely how bad the fog has to be in order to hear the AWS before you see the signal,

During that heavy rain shower mentioned above I didn't even see the signal and it was an LED signal, a complete white out, I trusted the AWS signal I received.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Why would you need rules about driving in the fog? It's common sense. If you loose your bearings or are in any doubt where you are, where the next signal is etc you slow down until you regain full control. That's really all there is to it.

I have driven in dense fog on many occasion and pre-empting caution signals that can be what we would call tight is a definite must unless you want to have an underpants change. Any experienced driver will know what I mean by a tight signal. It has aided me many a time especially when in normal conditions you get a good view of a caution signal, you will not lose much time and it is certainly safer this way.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

In the rulebook TW1 section 14 states :

You must reduce the speed of your train as you consider
necessary, if you cannot see signals at the normal distance during:
• fog
• falling snow, or
• any other poor visibility.
You must not exceed 40 mph during fog or falling snow on a line
where AWS is not provided on the line of route, or is not in use on
the train.


But what is normal distance ? Trains are not driven like cars - ie we do not have to drive at a speed to be able to stop in the distance we see to be clear under normal operations.

If a train hits something on track it is nearly never the train drivers fault. If a vehicle driver does the same thing they are usually part responsible.

I think the key words here are "as you consider necessary" as we all know the rule book is an insurance policy.

 

[455driver]

Have you driven the old slam door stock with the EP brake and auto brake?

No, hence my-

I have heard of

in the post you quoted! :roll:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I tell you what TDK I will bow out of any threads asking drivers for information and leave it up to you and your bloated ego to answer them in future!

I think this is about the 4th or 5th time you have questioned me.

 

[TOCDriver]

Not had that much experience in driving through 'pea-soupers' but all comments made thus far are valid. Route knowledge is the key -I know every bend, speed limit, straight, signal position and type , station and landmark on my routes, so thick fog wouldn't make much difference to how I control the train. I would, however , approach each signal capable of displaying a cautionary aspect (which is pretty much every one of them)as though it were displaying a cautionary aspect and reduce my approach speed accordingly until I actually saw its displayed colour. In freezing cold weather and snow, I would make more use of the brake i.e a few more running brake tests and/or braking a bit earlier, but intermittently, in order to keep heat in the wheels and brakes.

 

[TDK]

No, hence my-



in the post you quoted! :roll:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I tell you what TDK I will bow out of any threads asking drivers for information and leave it up to you and your bloated ego to answer them in future!

I think this is about the 4th or 5th time you have questioned me.

I am just trying to be compatible with who I am replying to. I question you because you question many people on this forum about their posts. See, 455 you do not like to be questioned by a fellow driver, as for a bloated ego you are the only person on this forum or even within the railway who thinks I have a bloated ego so I will leave it at that. I asked if you had actually driven the old slam door stock, you have said no, it was a valid question about whether you had actually driven them not an attack on you or your ability.

not that it ever happened to me, honest!

This is why I asked you the question

 

[merlodlliw]

I went through a very heavy rain shower only the day before yesterday and literally had zero visibility, I never educed speed until I knew I was approaching a signal that could have been at caution and when I went over the AWS and got a clear I knew the signal was a green aspect and continued. Fortunately the rain cleared after about 5 minutes and the line speed was 75mph. It didn't phase me at all because I knew exactly where I was, the gradient and the distance from the signal I was anticipating.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


During that heavy rain shower mentioned above I didn't even see the signal and it was an LED signal, a complete white out, I trusted the AWS signal I received.

I presume that storm was between 4pm & 5pm on Friday,it effected a good part of the area,it was so intense I pulled off the road due to zero viability,
I do not think you have a bloated ego,nor does anyone else,I find you explain to us non rail people how a train driver carries out his complex duties in an understandable way.

 

[DunfordBridge]

Because a driver should be able to control his train almost exactly the same as they can in daylight, its all route knowledgeand so shouldnt be a problem.

The general consensus is that detailed route knowledge is the key. I am sure that I would enjoy this aspect of the work quite thoroughly if I ever became a train driver.

I have seen for myself how detailed the route knowledge can be on the East Coast main line and around Leeds station. On the stretch of line between Leeds and Wakefield Kirkgate station, the line south of Leeds as far as the M1 seems particular rich in features consisting of the Freightliner depot complete with headshunt and sidings, not to mention numerous bridges for slip roads and pedestrian walkways interweaved with the odd signal.

I can only imagine how involved the route knowledge must be around London.

 

[notadriver]

To get back on topic I created this thread for people to ask train drivers about aspects of the role. Did you have any questions you wanted to ask us DunfordBridge?

 

[SkinnyDave]

What are the differences you find in concentration levels between long distance driving and shorter intense stopping work?