Questions about driving trains.

[ComUtoR]

Yikes that's a plethora of phones ! Cheers for the replies guys.

 

[A-driver]

I did hear that they were planning to phase out SPTs with the spread of GSM-R, by not including them in new resignalling schemes and removing them elsewhere when they were up for renewal. Not sure whether that's still the plan - but personally I think there'll always be a need for SPTs for as long as there are fixed signals.
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That's the reason I'd heard for it - removing the temptation for the driver to draw right up to the signal in the pouring rain! 100m in rear sounds a bit much though. It does make a lot of sense, but equally it can sometimes mean that the driver's voice is drowned out by the noise of the adjacent loco!

Most are not 100m away but closer to 20. The one I can think of that's roughly 100m away is because it's an area of limited clearance so I think that's the only place they could fit the phone in.

Numerous signals don't have SPTs anyway and never have. There are almost no SPTs across the fens between Huntingdon and Peterbourgh.

 

[455driver]

I have a few signals that are SPTs, one is about 15 foot away from the signals!

Around Havant the SPTs are on seperate posts about 20 metres before the signal post.

Edit-
A-Driver has made the same point.

 

[Bill Stanier]

Why use phones at all, especially lineside ones. Why not use radio from the cab to whoever the driver needs to talk to (signaller, control centre, BTP, whatever?).

 

[t_star2001uk]

Why use phones at all, especially lineside ones. Why not use radio from the cab to whoever the driver needs to talk to (signaller, control centre, BTP, whatever?).

mmmm.... radio system failure or when out doing emergency protection you cant take the cab with you......

 

[Bill Stanier]

mmmm.... radio system failure or when out doing emergency protection you cant take the cab with you......

Works for aviation - you have two 'boxes', one active and the other set up for your next (or most probable) frequency. The chance of both (and your hand-held - see below) failing is infinitesimal. Base stations are muliple as well.

But in aviation you have 720 (soon to be more) possible frequencies. In a train, with only a handful of possible point to communicate with, you'd use 'channels' instead of actual frequencies.

When out of the cab, you'd take a hand-held (not much bigger than an old mobile phone these days).

Don't the modern radio-based signalling systems incorporate voice comms? Seems a lost opportunity if they don't.

 

[A-driver]

Works for aviation - you have two 'boxes', one active and the other set up for your next (or most probable) frequency. The chance of both (and your hand-held - see below) failing is infinitesimal. Base stations are muliple as well.



But in aviation you have 720 (soon to be more) possible frequencies. In a train, with only a handful of possible point to communicate with, you'd use 'channels' instead of actual frequencies.



When out of the cab, you'd take a hand-held (not much bigger than an old mobile phone these days).



Don't the modern radio-based signalling systems incorporate voice comms? Seems a lost opportunity if they don't.

You can't really compare this to aviation. Railways are glued to the ground with fixed points with phones attached. Pilots don't routinely get out of their planes to walk about mid journey, train drivers do. Therefore fixed phones wired into the Infastructure using existing equipment make far more financial sense than an expensive redesign using radio equipment.

The phones are old technology though, the reason we use phones is because radio comes didn't exist when they were installed. It was (and to an extent still is cheaper) not to move to radio comms.

The signal post phones are fairly simple, they are a direct line to the signaller run with cables to the box (I believe) so you can't dial other numbers and is pretty much like a simple intercom system. Setting up portable radio equipment is hugely expensive, every cab or every driver in the country would need to be allocated portable radio equipment (plus every single other person working on the railways) and it would be used by each once in a blue moon. I can count the times I have had to use an SPT on one hand.

Just about all uk trains now have cab radios. They are always the primary means of communication-quicker, easier and safer. But like anything they can fail and in those cases you need a back up. Mobile phones are not good enough as they are unreliable (signal/battery etc) and technically they are required to be switched off when in the cab so take time to be switched on. SPTs still give a quick access to the signaller if the radio fails and in an emergancy is a good way of quickly reaching the signaller for anyone working on the lineside.

Add into that that existing phones are needed for other scenarios such as crossing phones used by farmers to move farm equipment across the line etc.

 

[Bill Stanier]

Some good points there AD. I'm a signalman on a heritage line (steam footplate crew on another) and my SPTs are direct to my box, but then again we do pride ourselves on running a heritage phone system with heavy bakelite phones with chrome dials, and Strowger exchanges, all in keeping with a steam railway!

 

[craigybagel]

On No-Signalman Token Remote lines (such as the Heart of Wales line), are the Tyer's token instruments (such as number 9) normally used? When these are used with a signalman, the signalman at the opposite end has to push his plunger to allow a token to be withdrawn. But in No Signalman token operation, there may be nobody on the corresponding machine at the other end (although they have to contact a signaller at a central location). So how does this work?

On the Heart of Wales line, at each crossing point the driver operates the token machine whilst on the phone to the signaller at Pantyffynnon, pushing the plunger and returning/withdrawing a token when instructed to do so. The withdrawal of a token from the machine also de-activates the TPWS grids guarding the exit to the crossing loop for a short period of time.

 

[507 001]

I thought that the SG button was actually wired up to the green bulb as whenever I press it, after a delay of about 2 seconds, the signal changes from red straight to green!

I'm glad it's not just metrolink where this happens, makes you feel a right plonker when the controller bells you up asking which signal......

 

[russmcp]

2 questions.

If you spad, do you lose your job?

And do you still enjoy your job? What's good about it and what isn't?

 

[RPM]

2 questions.

If you spad, do you lose your job?

It's not as clear cut as that. It depends on the severity of the SPAD and your safety record as a driver. Whatever the circumstances though, a SPAD is an enormously disruptive and damaging event in a driver's career.

And do you still enjoy your job? What's good about it and what isn't?

After 11 years I'm still enjoying it. I love the fact you are largely left alone by management. I like being away from the drudgery of the 9 to 5 working day. I like the fact that I do something different every day. I like seeing the wildlife and the changing of the seasons. I like getting my break in a variety of different places.

I dislike the very early starts. I dislike the fact I can't take part in any activity outside work that requires regular weekly attendance. I dislike allocated leave and the yearly struggle to get my summer leave in the school holidays. I dislike having to get a trainload of angry passengers off my train when it has failed. On balance though it's the best job I've ever had.

 

[physics34]

2 questions.

If you spad, do you lose your job?

And do you still enjoy your job? What's good about it and what isn't?

Agree with what RPM says about SPADs, it depends on the circumstances, but a huge majority of drivers who have a SPAD will not get sacked.

I've done it for ten years. Biggest con for me is shift work, especially early shift and how it affects your social life. Pro's include the pay, generous amount of days off and pension. I still like the job but wouldn't say I love it.

 

[rebmcr]

a huge majority of drivers who have a SPAD will not get sacked.

Not to mention a lot of 'SPADs' are no longer considered such — if it's out of the driver's control then it's an Operating Incident instead now, due to EU interoperating rules.

 

[455driver]

Agree with what RPM says about SPADs, it depends on the circumstances, but a huge majority of drivers who have a SPAD will not get sacked.

I've done it for ten years. Biggest con for me is shift work, especially early shift and how it affects your social life. Pro's include the pay, generous amount of days off and pension. I still like the job but wouldn't say I love it.

Social life? Whats one of them?

Further to everyone elses answers-
No, a SPAD on its own wont normally end a drivers career unless it is something special.

Yes I still enjoy it most days, some days are harder than other and some will stretch my enjoyment to its limit.

 

[W230]

I love the fact you are largely left alone by management. I like being away from the drudgery of the 9 to 5 working day. I like the fact that I do something different every day. I like seeing the wildlife and the changing of the seasons. I like getting my break in a variety of different places.

I dislike the very early starts. I dislike the fact I can't take part in any activity outside work that requires regular weekly attendance. I dislike allocated leave and the yearly struggle to get my summer leave in the school holidays. I dislike having to get a trainload of angry passengers off my train when it has failed. On balance though it's the best job I've ever had.

Couldn't have out it any better.

 

[Kazington]

Question about the DVT's I've seen at Norwich, I've heard them often release a loud burst of air when arriving or just before departure, sounds like a long fart. What is it related to?

 

[Lockwood]

Driver had been holding it in for the last 50 miles?

 

[Cherry_Picker]

Question about the DVT's I've seen at Norwich, I've heard them often release a loud burst of air when arriving or just before departure, sounds like a long fart. What is it related to?

The brakes are powered by compressed air.

 

[Domh245]

I'm not entirely sure about this, but if it is an Auto Brake (Air Operated, rather than Electrical ) then the "farting" noise is all of the air being dumped to give a full brake application to shut it down - The A stock and C stock on LU did a very similar thing.

Having reread Cherry Picker's post it would appear that DVTs do have an automatic brake, which would make sense, I suppose

 

[Cherry_Picker]

You need to create (or "charge") the brake before it will release prior to departure too. Someone more articulate than me can explain the physics of it, but basically air is always moving from reservoirs to chambers and back again every time the brakes are applied or released.

This is where I'll get slaughtered for getting it wrong, but my understanding is that there is a diaphragm in the system which needs to have equal air pressure on both sides in order for the brake to release. If the balance is off then the brake gets applied, the bigger the difference in pressure on respective sides, the harder the brake gets applied. Again, I'm not an expert but the reason you have a system where air pressure is needed to both apply and release the brake is a failsafe, if you have a huge air leak then the system should still stop the train from moving.

 

[Lockwood]

Is the "Air Brake and Electro-Pneumatic Brake Operation" video on Youtube (Which I'm not sure if I can directly link to or not, so I won't) still relevant to the more modern stock?

 

[bronzeonion]

Is the "Air Brake and Electro-Pneumatic Brake Operation" video on Youtube (Which I'm not sure if I can directly link to or not, so I won't) still relevant to the more modern stock?

Not relevant for any passenger MU designs from the Class 313 onwards (could be earlier if the 50xs were earlier) that use Westcode electronic braking equipment. The basics of how it all works (auto brake only) is still relevant for majority of freight trains, loco haul trains and HSTs. Though the standard brake pipe pressure is 72.5 PSI/5 BAR rather than 70 PSI. Nearly everything was converted from 70 PSI to 72.5 PSI to conform to some sort of European standard in the 70s but SR EMUs stayed at 70.

Coming to think of it the only thing the video is completely relevant for stuff still on the mainline is the Hastings Diesels Class 201/202 Thumper unit.

Obviously relevant for all the Thumpers in preservation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iecqOtCaTXQ This is the video

 

[Nic nic]

Interesting thread fairly new to this forum so bear with me please. This question has been asked before in a similar fashion but didn't get to the point I wanted to find out... When you pass out of training and are in the cab on your own is it like learning to drive on the road? The point I am trying to make is that you truly learn to drive when you are on your own with no one holding your hand. Is it similar in a train or do you go over every possible scenario so many times while training that it is second nature?

 

[Minilad]

Interesting thread fairly new to this forum so bear with me please. This question has been asked before in a similar fashion but didn't get to the point I wanted to find out... When you pass out of training and are in the cab on your own is it like learning to drive on the road? The point I am trying to make is that you truly learn to drive when you are on your own with no one holding your hand. Is it similar in a train or do you go over every possible scenario so many times while training that it is second nature?

Very much so. Same as learning a new route. I always feel you don't really properly learn it until you are on your own making the decisions yourself.

 

[Harbon 1]

Very much so. Same as learning a new route. I always feel you don't really properly learn it until you are on your own making the decisions yourself.

How in depth is the route knowledge? I know you need to know where signals spreed restrictions, etc are, but is it knowing that after the bridge there's a left curve and then a signal, then there's another one then a speed restriction, or is it the bridge carrying the whatever road then a left past the white house the line of trees and then it straightens slightly before the signal then there's a factory on the left and a fence that by the side of the railway for half the distance to the next signal.....

Basically is it like me knowing that one road comes after another joined by these roundabouts on the way to my dads, or is it the road goes slightly left up then down straight and right again before the round about?

How in depth is it :P

 

[FQ]

Ok, I have a question, sorry if it has already been asked; I don't have time to search the post.

When a driver finishes his train and has to travel as a passenger to his next place, will that journey be free?

EG. Say I was a Virgin Trains driver based at Manchester Piccadilly, I worked a train to London Euston and then one to Glasgow Central, but then needed to get back to Manchester Piccadilly as a passenger, would I need to pay for the Glasgow Central-Manchester Piccadilly bit?

Thanks.

 

[SkinnyDave]

Ok, I have a question, sorry if it has already been asked; I don't have time to search the post.

When a driver finishes his train and has to travel as a passenger to his next place, will that journey be free?

EG. Say I was a Virgin Trains driver based at Manchester Piccadilly, I worked a train to London Euston and then one to Glasgow Central, but then needed to get back to Manchester Piccadilly as a passenger, would I need to pay for the Glasgow Central-Manchester Piccadilly bit?

Thanks.

I would hope so with a diagram like that!!!

In all seriousness if it is in your diagram to travel as passenger then yes it is free

 

[FQ]

I would hope so with a diagram like that!!!

In all seriousness if it is in your diagram to travel as passenger then yes it is free

Thanks!

 

[TDK]

Ok, I have a question, sorry if it has already been asked; I don't have time to search the post.

When a driver finishes his train and has to travel as a passenger to his next place, will that journey be free?

EG. Say I was a Virgin Trains driver based at Manchester Piccadilly, I worked a train to London Euston and then one to Glasgow Central, but then needed to get back to Manchester Piccadilly as a passenger, would I need to pay for the Glasgow Central-Manchester Piccadilly bit?

Thanks.

A driver can travel free whether or not it is work related as long as their travel card allows, usually within TOC's within a group for example. Driver who work for DB have good travel privileges you have ATW, XC, Chiltern, Tyne & wear, Lorol and some busses that are all free, there may be one I missed but I think that the facilities for any DB group staff is excellent.