Railway 'day'

[Zoe]

I wonder what the TM would sell on board?

Since there is a ticket machine at Exeter, wouldn't the Train Manager only sell an Anytime Single on board? There could also be the possibility of a penalty fare although I very much doubt there is going to be an RPI around at that time.

 

[bnm]

Agreed Zoe. But an Off Peak Day Single ticket is valid at that time. It's just that the systems in place can't sell you the cheapest valid fare.

 

[wintonian]

Since there is a ticket machine at Exeter, wouldn't the Train Manager only sell an Anytime Single on board? There could also be the possibility of a penalty fare although I very much doubt there is going to be an RPI around at that time.

But if the valid ticket you wish to buy is not avalible from the TVM then the full range of tickets (inc. discounts) becomes avalible to buy onboard.

 

[Zoe]

It's just that the systems in place can't sell you the cheapest valid fare.

In the same way that a ticket machine won't sell you an Off Peak ticket until 0930 even if the first off peak train leaves at 0931. I'm not sure a guard would accept you trying to buy an off peak ticket on board in this case.

 

[cuccir]

The whole thing is a bit of a mess really, though as it affects so few people - and as there are few if any guards/RPIs working at that time as well - I suspect its overlooked out of covenience as much as anything else.

For example, there are a couple of trains around 10 past midnight from Durham to Newcastle, which I used in the Autumn when I was living in Newcastle for a few months. I've turned up at Durham at around 10 to midnight and the TVMs have asked if I wanted to travel 'today' or 'tomorrow'. Knowing more than the average bear about rail travel, I knew that I wanted to travel 'today', but it's pretty reasonable to expect that people might buy the wrong ticket at that time. Now, as I've never seen anyone checking tickets at that time, and the barriers are left open, I don't suppose its a problem in practice, but there's clearly potential for confusion.

 

[wintonian]

The whole thing is a bit of a mess really, though as it affects so few people - and as there are few if any guards/RPIs working at that time as well - I suspect its overlooked out of covenience as much as anything else.

For example, there are a couple of trains around 10 past midnight from Durham to Newcastle, which I used in the Autumn when I was living in Newcastle for a few months. I've turned up at Durham at around 10 to midnight and the TVMs have asked if I wanted to travel 'today' or 'tomorrow'. Knowing more than the average bear about rail travel, I knew that I wanted to travel 'today', but it's pretty reasonable to expect that people might buy the wrong ticket at that time. Now, as I've never seen anyone checking tickets at that time, and the barriers are left open, I don't suppose its a problem in practice, but there's clearly potential for confusion.

So here lies the answer; after 00:00 TVM's should ask if you want to travel today or yesterday - fits in well with simplification wouldn't you say?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

But, as I've pointed out, you can buy a valid ticket online up to 0230. Why haven't TIS been updated to include services arriving before 0429?

You'd have to ask the programmers that I'm afraid.

What complicates things is that National Rail Enquiries describe Off-Peak tickets as

You can buy Off-Peak tickets any time before you travel.

which clearly is not the case if one wishes to travel at 0354 but unable to purchase the ticket at 0350.

I'm not sure moving the start of day to 0430 is a good idea either, as one may no longer use an All Line Rover to start on a sleeper service the night before the commencement of the ticket by purchasing a short single to cover the initial distance until midnight.

The real solution should be just to make previous day's ticket available for purchase until 0429.

You would have to provide some sort of education to the passenger about how the ticket is valid and so on though, otherwise you will get people buying Off-Peak Day returns and travelling much later than allowed claiming they bought the ticket that day and it says day return on it. Then comes complaints of selling out of date tickets and so on. Not sure the effort is worth it to be honest.

Perhaps the railway should advertise a booking deadline of 2359hrs on the day of travel? No wait, I can see more criticism coming....

 

[bnm]

Actually HHF, I wouldn't be too miffed if it was made clear in the T&Cs that purchase needed to be made before 2359:59. That could equally be 0230 (as it is online) or locally to include the last valid service. Bit more difficult to do it locally, but not beyond the wit of man. (sorry... 2012. person)

I appreciate that there has to be a cut off point for auditing purposes.

Let's just have all retail opportunities singing from the same song sheet, with clear T&Cs.

I can but wish..... :roll:

 

[transmanche]

It seems to me that the ticket restriction code (W3, which indigo2 linked to earlier) should be changed from:

By any train except those timed to depart before 09:00.​

to

By any train except those timed to depart between 04:30 and 08:59.​

And it's simply been overlooked when the NR end-of-day changed to match the TfL end-of-day

 

[hairyhandedfool]

The restriction would probably have been "by any train except those timed to depart before 09:00", before the change to 0429 from 0230.

 

[bnm]

That makes some sense, transmanche, but to fit within the current definition of the railway 'day' it would have to be:

"By any train scheduled to depart after 0900. After midnight, any train scheduled to arrive before 0429"

Still doesn't sort out the retailing of valid tickets after 0000 though...

 

[John @ home]

Ticket offices must offer for sale the cheapest ticket available for immediate travel

Agreed.

if the cheapest ticket is one with yesterdays date on it and it is valid for travel then they must offer to sell it.

Not necessarily. It depends whether the ticket remains available for immediate travel after midnight on the date printed on the ticket. My view is that for a ticket to be available for immediate travel it must be

• available for purchase, and
• valid for immediate travel.

IMO it is a breach of the impartiality rules not to offer such a ticket

My guess is that train companies would claim that refusing to sell a ticket later than the travel date printed on the ticket was a necessary fraud prevention measure.

 

[bnm]

My guess is that train companies would claim that refusing to sell a ticket later than the travel date printed on the ticket was a necessary fraud prevention measure.

So TIS (human or TVM) need to able to back date for sales made from 0000 until the last service arriving at the specified destination before 0429?

Not easy, but not impossible. Just like it's not impossible for TVMs to sell Off Peak before the start of the relevant Off Peak time.

Excess those who've made an error, or prosecute those knowingly travelling Peak with Off Peak. Just don't inconvenience the genuine traveller who merely wants to pay the cheapest valid fare for their journey.

 

[wintonian]

Not necessarily. It depends whether the ticket remains available for immediate travel after midnight on the date printed on the ticket. My view is that for a ticket to be available for immediate travel it must be

• available for purchase, and
• valid for immediate travel.

I see it as; 'tickets which are valid for travel on the next service with out reservation must be offerd for sale'

This would include tickets with the previous days date.

My guess is that train companies would claim that refusing to sell a ticket later than the travel date printed on the ticket was a necessary fraud prevention measure.

You raise a good point here.

Possibly they could be stamped on the relevent portion with something like valid 00:00 - 04:30 only?

 

[transmanche]

Possibly they could be stamped on the relevant portion with something like valid 00:00 - 04:30 only?

But correcting the ticket restriction code would avoid all that shenanigans.

 

[cuccir]

Out of interest, are there any ticket offices actually open at this time, or is it a TVM/Train manager issue only?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Luton Airport Parkway is open 'til 00:30 (Mon-Fri [well, Tuesday to Saturday really]) apparently

 

[wintonian]

Out of interest, are there any ticket offices actually open at this time, or is it a TVM/Train manager issue only?

I belive Waterloo, Paddington and London Victoria are 24hrs

 

[heart-of-wessex]

Any ticket is vaid from 0000 on weekends and bank holidays aren't they? I've always wondered if I could get away with doing a Southern Daysave and starting on the 0008 (or is it 0038 or something?) from Victoria - Three Bridges and doing that all night/morning from 0000 Saturday, then use it all day till night time. That would be big value on the Daysave!

 

[bnm]

Any ticket is vaid from 0000 on weekends and bank holidays aren't they? I've always wondered if I could get away with doing a Southern Daysave and starting on the 0008 (or is it 0038 or something?) from Victoria - Three Bridges and doing that all night/morning from 0000 Saturday, then use it all day till night time. That would be big value on the Daysave!

Weekends/Bank Holidays/DaySave/Rover don't really enter the equation. The ticket (whatever flavour it is) runs out of validity at 0429 on the day after the date printed (or date box filled) on it.

My argument is, and remains, that the cheapest walk-up Off Peak tickets should be available for purchase after midnight and should be valid until 0429 that day. No further. If that means it needs to be dated the day before to prevent fraudulent use then so be it.

If you want a DaySave to allow you travel in the wee small hours on a given date then you have to buy one with a date the day before.

Clouding the argument somewhat by bringing up Ranger/Rover type tickets.

 

[34D]

I'm not sure moving the start of day to 0430 is a good idea either, as one may no longer use an All Line Rover to start on a sleeper service the night before the commencement of the ticket by purchasing a short single to cover the initial distance until midnight.

I've learnt from this thread that whilst the day ends at 04:29, that the start time of the day is apparently undefined. Consequently I'd say that if you have a thu 1st March reading-penzance ticket (or 1st March ALR) you may board the riviera at Reading, being the train that leaves paddington at 23:40ish on wed 29th Feb.

 

[Zoe]

I belive Waterloo, Paddington and London Victoria are 24hrs

Considering Waterloo station actually closes to passengers overnight I don't see what benefit there would be in having the ticket office open.

 

[Paul Kelly]

Leeds booking office is open 24 hours a day too.

 

[heart-of-wessex]

Weekends/Bank Holidays/DaySave/Rover don't really enter the equation. The ticket (whatever flavour it is) runs out of validity at 0429 on the day after the date printed (or date box filled) on it.

My argument is, and remains, that the cheapest walk-up Off Peak tickets should be available for purchase after midnight and should be valid until 0429 that day. No further. If that means it needs to be dated the day before to prevent fraudulent use then so be it.

If you want a DaySave to allow you travel in the wee small hours on a given date then you have to buy one with a date the day before.

Clouding the argument somewhat by bringing up Ranger/Rover type tickets.

Yes I understand that, I was just adding that on top of this 'day' thing, I couldn't fathom what rovers are under. I know they won't be valid the day after at all, but I meant could a ranger/saver still be used from 0001 Saturday, or from the 'day' 0430 thing...I just got confused :?

 

[bb21]

Yes I understand that, I was just adding that on top of this 'day' thing, I couldn't fathom what rovers are under. I know they won't be valid the day after at all, but I meant could a ranger/saver still be used from 0001 Saturday, or from the 'day' 0430 thing...I just got confused :?

There is no reason why they aren't valid from 0001.

 

[island]

I belive Waterloo, Paddington and London Victoria are 24hrs

Victoria isn't; for a few hours at night when there's only the one service an hour, it shuts up and kicks everyone out before reopening for 10 minutes or so before the departure.

London Bridge certainly ought to be open all night for the Thameslink services, although I'm not sure the booking office is.

 

[John @ home]

East Croydon booking office is advertised to be open 24 hours.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations/ecr/details.html