Railway Industrial Disputes Mk2

[choochoochoo]

What chaos was caused by the three days of strike action so far? Most commuters worked from home, crowds flocked to Glastonbury regardless. I thought the RMT were supposed to be bringing the nation to a gridlocked standstill?

Have to agree - Vast majority of people wouldn't have known that there was a strike on and those that did made other plans.

The idea that, on the 21st Century railway, strikes are going to bring employers / the country to their knees and find the money tree is just fanciful.

Ok. Not a standstill. But social media is awash with complaints about peoples travel plans being ruined. Or having to fork out extortionate amounts for alternative transport/hotels.

 

[Broucek]

What chaos was caused by the three days of strike action so far? Most commuters worked from home, crowds flocked to Glastonbury regardless. I thought the RMT were supposed to be bringing the nation to a gridlocked standstill?

Not chaos but lots of small bits of sadness where plans had to be cancelled or changed and a notable economic impact on those who can't easily work from home or use other transport modes and who lose income as a result (more likely to be those on lower-mid incomes).

Whilst I recognise the importance of the right to strike, the problem with a strike on public transport is that the real damage is primarily collateral. That's different to a situation where customers can readily choose go elsewhere, in which case the employer suffers a loss of income and reputation.

 

[skyhigh]

Have to agree - Vast majority of people wouldn't have known that there was a strike on and those that did made other plans.

The idea that, on the 21st Century railway, strikes are going to bring employers / the country to their knees and find the money tree is just fanciful.

You can't have it both ways. In the last strike thread, you said:

Well I am absolutely livid and am going to have to try really hard to keep myself together...

I don't think you appreciate the damage and distress (mentally , physically and financially) that you cause to people but I guess as long as they get an extra piece of silver it is worth it.

I will now have to back out of the one thing I enjoy each year (Wimbledon) because of this action

Absolutely pathetic

RMT announce strike dates across range of TOCs and Network Rail

Is the tube and the new Elizabeth line effected by the National Rail strike action on the 23rd and 25th? Or dont National Rail run that network Yes EL will be affected. NR control signalling.

www.railforums.co.uk

So strikes are an irrelevance and nobody notices, yet they make you absolutely livid and cause damage and distress. Which is it?

 

[High Dyke]

The one thing I do not understand is why the unions (especially for signallers/drivers) went straight for strike action and not work to rule / overtime ban.

The beauty of overtime ban/work to rule is it inserts uncertainty into the timetable. Just look at all the cancellations that happen due to a shortage of train crew. The higher levels that plan/organise go into meltdown when there are unplanned cancellations leading to more chaos.

TOCs/Passengers hate uncertainty as it causes last minute cancellations and unplanned disruption !! With a full on strike, there is a lot more certainty so TOCs can plan their resources a lot more easily.

I don't know either. Action short of would've been a better start, in my opinion. It's been said before the railway runs on overtime. Just next week I've declined working my rest day on Monday; which means that others have agreed to cover the three required shifts with two 12-hr turns (including overtime).

I've previously said that I don't always agree with my union. Personally I think they've gone about this wrong way.

 

[Bantamzen]

Not chaos but lots of small bits of sadness where plans had to be cancelled or changed and a notable economic impact on those who can't easily work from home or use other transport modes and who lose income as a result (more likely to be those on lower-mid incomes).

Whilst I recognise the importance of the right to strike, the problem with a strike on public transport is that the real damage is primarily collateral. That's different to a situation where customers can readily choose go elsewhere, in which case the employer suffers a loss of income and reputation.

Also don't forget that on strike days those people choosing not to travel are also not potentially spending money on the local businesses and services that they might have on a normal service day. And every additional day of industrial action slowly eats more and more into those businesses and local economies.

So when some people here describe the result of industrial action as "collateral damage`, what they really mean is" someome else's problem".

 

[scrapy]

I don't know either. Action short of would've been a better start, in my opinion. It's been said before the railway runs on overtime. Just next week I've declined working my rest day on Monday; which means that others have agreed to cover the three required shifts with two 12-hr turns (including overtime).

I've previously said that I don't always agree with my union. Personally I think they've gone about this wrong way.

Action short of a strike does not hit national headlines. There is unlikely to be any pressure to resolve the dispute. TOCs will likely just cancel a few trains and put in a temporary timetable should it affect more than a few days, might hit a local paper at best.

 

[AY1975]

Further strike action called for Thursday 18th August and Saturday 20th August.

Well I suppose with the RMT having announced those dates well in advance, way more than the statutory minimum of 14 days' notice, that does at least enable passengers to plan ahead to some extent. ASLEF might announce more strike dates in the meantime, though.

Not sure whether the RMT and ASLEF think the strikes will be more effective if they do or don't co-ordinate their strike action. On the one hand, very little will be able to run if both the RMT and ASLEF are on strike at the same time, but on the other hand it could be argued that they can cause maximum disruption by striking on different days.

 

[Goldfish62]

Well I suppose with the RMT having announced those dates well in advance, way more than the statutory minimum of 14 days' notice, that does at least enable passengers to plan ahead to some extent. ASLEF might announce more strike dates in the meantime, though.

Not sure whether the RMT and ASLEF think the strikes will be more effective if they do or don't co-ordinate their strike action. On the one hand, very little will be able to run if both the RMT and ASLEF are on strike at the same time, but on the other hand it could be argued that they can cause maximum disruption by striking on different days.

Mick Lynch said on the BBC this morning that they wouldn't be calling any strikes during the Commonwealth Games.

The dates in August are far enough in advance to focus minds and potentially get enough of a way towards a settlement for them to be suspended or called off.

 

[JonathanH]

The dates in August are far enough in advance to focus minds and potentially get enough of a way towards a settlement for them to be suspended or called off.

Who is expecting an amicable settlement? The threat of strike action focusing minds. Strikes are not in any way hurting the DfT side. The August strikes will come and go because that is how this is playing out until the DfT gets its way.

 

[Falcon1200]

One of the reasons for cancellation in 1975 was the impact of severe inflation from the 1973/4 oil crisis.
It meant there was no trust in cost estimates to complete the job (there were other factors of course*).
The danger for current projects like HS2 is that costs will similarly balloon out of control.

* eg a balance of payments crisis, BR demanding a new route into London, unable to cancel Concorde, etc
The oil embargo was itself a result of Middle East wars.
It would have been worse if it hadn't been for North Sea oil and gas coming on stream soon after.
Also the 1987 Channel Tunnel project was at private expense, unlike the one in 1975.

Valid points I'm sure, but the fact remains that supposedly rail-friendly Labour cancelled the project, whereas under the widely assumed to be rail-hating Tories the rail-only Channel Tunnel did get built !

 

[yorksrob]

Valid points I'm sure, but the fact remains that supposedly rail-friendly Labour cancelled the project, whereas under the widely assumed to be rail-hating Tories the rail-only Channel Tunnel did get built !

You're right. There was nothing rail friendly about Tom Fraser (albeit pre Chunnel).

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Valid points I'm sure, but the fact remains that supposedly rail-friendly Labour cancelled the project, whereas under the widely assumed to be rail-hating Tories the rail-only Channel Tunnel did get built !

And a huge amount of electrification too.

 

[yorksrob]

And a huge amount of electrification too.

Alas they went and destroyed a very competent electrification programme with privatisation !

 

[Carlisle]

Action short of a strike does not hit national headlines. There is unlikely to be any pressure to resolve the dispute.

That’s not necessarily true, you only need ask any regular rail user in the north west what they think of the reliability of Trans Pennine Express ,given their period of dire performance has now lasted longer than Southern’s equivalent when it had industrial relations issues .

 

[43066]

and at the time when I could quite viably have gone on fly commercially I was earning far too much and enjoying a far better lifestyle doing other things to contemplate the lowly salaries then on offer to newly qualified airline pilots.

Of course you were.

For some reason you’ve felt the need to tell us all that you went to the trouble of doing a commercial pilots’ license, yet didn’t get a job as pilot (because you were too well paid apparently), also that you know you *cannot* be a train driver for some unspecified reason (but of course you don’t want to be). These comments rather speak for themselves and certainly give insight into your stance on here.

I’ve often found those posters with the
most obvious chips on their shoulders about staff and unions are motivated by some personal grievance or bitterness when you dig a little deeper and read between the lines, and this absolutely confirms it in your case.

I think, despite your claimed background, that you are deluded if you believe the main obstacle to earning a living from flying is a lack on money. In some cases money may be an impediment to getting all the way down that road, but sooner or later those with money but not capable of making the grade fall by the wayside. Nevertheless, if the railway used a similar model with commercial independent training available, I’d bet they get some highly capable drivers out of the other end some of whom wouldn’t get past the barriers TOCs put in place.

This is off topic but the selection is from the best of those *who can afford to pay for the training*. Many who lack the aptitude are encouraged to pay for the training by those who stand to make a fast buck. Frankly if you don’t understand that then I doubt you even work in the airline industry.

You will never convince me that driving a train is more exacting than flying an airliner - and yet, as I said, the barriers to entry int that side or the rail industry are higher. This is one of the main reasons why drivers can demand exorbitant salaries and hold the country to ransom if they don’t get them.

I’m not trying to convince you of anything! However, in continuing to compare two jobs you have never done you are only continuing to make yourself look rather silly.

As for “exorbitant salaries” - if you really are naive enough to believe that 20,000 ASLEF members on £50-60k are capable of “holding the country to random” by striking for a modest pay rise during a cost of living crisis then, frankly, I feel sorry for you. When I think of the salaries people were earning in my previous industry, for advising investment banks and hedge funds on how to avoid tax… And you think train drivers are the problem?

What was that you were saying about being delusional?

I will leave our exchange there because I would rather debate this emotive subject with individuals who have at least some ability to view the situation objectively, rather than merely trotting out propaganda and grinding little axes about jobs they’ve been unable to get/do.

You know I stopped at that very first sentence. There really is no point in arguing with someone who thinks the "easy solution' to the problem is to just press the reverse button back into the private sector. Perhaps you missed the bit where private companies couldn't wait to ditch franchises onto the government? The industry is being bankrolled by public money for a reason.

Well, based on this response, it appears you didn’t even read the first sentence!

I’m not quite sure what you mean by “push the reverse button into the private sector” - the ownership of the railway hasn’t changed and it hasn’t actiallh been “nationalised”. The decision to notionally categorise it as “public sector” perhaps made sense when the ERMAs were first implemented but should - in time - be reversed,
as subsidy reduces to more “normal” levels. My point was that bringing that forward would be a politician friendly way of answering complaints from other parts of the public sector about railway pay rises…

Going forward, if your debating tactic is going to be to grossly misinterpret the first sentence of a post and completely ignore the rest, I agree there won’t be much of a discussion!

Indeed. Sure, the industry could pre-Covid levels of subsidy overnight. But it would mean closing a substantial number of lines and making many redundancies. Probably also pay cuts of the order of 20 or 30%.

Something tells me that's not what @43066 was hoping for!

Indeed it isn’t, which is why it’s also not what I’ve been arguing for .

I think you said yourself elsewhere that, if we accept that the railway will always require *some* level of subsidy (which the more sensible parts of the forum membership do), it’s somewhat irrational to impose an arbitrary figure, above which it becomes evil.

I expect you’ll agree with me that, if this car crash of a government was *really* concerned about reducing subsidy, they’d be actively growing the fare box bu supporting the railway in delivering robust, dependable timetables. Doing so would likely include steps such as allowing TOCs to negotiate sensibly with unions, and abandoning the penny wise pound foolish approach to RDW arrangements on TPE? Sadly they seem more interested in political posturing and engaging in ideological battles with trade unions.

L

The blank cheques have been available to pay for Tory ideology, i.e the ongoing exorbitant leasing costs, as well as 3% profit to keep private companies involved.

Well quite. Of course finance companies making tax payer subsidised profits (at far higher profit margins than TOCs enjoy) from extortionate railway leasing arrangements aren’t the problem - it’s those awful staff who are holding the country to ransom and must be ground into the dust!

 

[Goldfish62]

Who is expecting an amicable settlement? The threat of strike action focusing minds. Strikes are not in any way hurting the DfT side. The August strikes will come and go because that is how this is playing out until the DfT gets its way.

Ah right, so you want this to carry on forever.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Alas they went and destroyed a very competent electrification programme with privatisation !

It got destroyed in 1990 when the money got short for nationalised industries. Privatisation related investment delays came later.

The 1990 BR Railplan rounds were brutal - we had to continually strip out schemes and resources from the 5 year plans.

 

[SA91]

You've missed the point. A career in nursing doesn't lead to a career in medicine because it doesn't.

In most other professions it would and this is known as a glass ceiling.

Why are you comparing a nursing degree to medicine? Also just because you have a degree, doesn't mean you just stay stagnant in your learning. I don't think you quite understand how high a position a nurse can actually achieve with further learning.

 

[43066]

Why are you comparing a nursing degree to medicine? Also just because you have a degree, doesn't mean you just stay stagnant in your learning. I don't think you quite understand how high a position a nurse can actually achieve with further learning.

More to the point: why does every thread on railway industrial relations end up discussing nursing?

 

[Goldfish62]

More to the point: why does every thread on railway industrial relations end up discussing nursing?

I was also wondering this.

 

[Jimmy Foster]

Ah right, so you want this to carry on forever.

I think there’s a real danger this does indeed go on for a long time.

The government aren’t going to shift an inch until we have a new PM and that’s 2 months away or near enough. Being robust with the RMT is playing out well with traditional Tory voters so the only problem is the cost of the strikes to the economy and that is offset by the implications of paying RMT members a big pay rise for the rest of the public sector.

Meanwhile, the RMT are fairly entrenched and Mick Lynch seems to be enjoying the profile.

I don’t see a way out of this anytime soon.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I think there’s a real danger this does indeed go on for a long time.

The government aren’t going to shift an inch until we have a new PM and that’s 2 months away or near enough. Being robust with the RMT is playing out well with traditional Tory voters so the only problem is the cost of the strikes to the economy and that is offset by the implications of paying RMT members a big pay rise for the rest of the public sector.

Meanwhile, the RMT are fairly entrenched and Mick Lynch seems to be enjoying the profile.

I don’t see a way out of this anytime soon.

Fielding Eddie Dempsey (RMT) is certainly going to lead to a lot of tory voters thinking we are heading back to the 1980's but conversely he speaks for all the working classes as well in the country and hes certainly shining a light on how much of a divide there is in the UK between the haves and have nots.

 

[dk1]

More to the point: why does every thread on railway industrial relations end up discussing nursing?

I have never understood that either. I’ve never even done a first aid course as a train driver so why the continuing comparison?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

FT reporting

Millions of British public sector workers to be offered 5% pay rise​

OK not rail industry but article says that BoJo is going for 5% over the 2% Sunak originally wanted in an attempt to head off more strikes.

Boris Johnson will next week offer pay rises averaging about 5 per cent to millions of public sector workers, but ministers fear that below-inflation deals across the economy could trigger months of strikes.

The pay offer will be higher than originally proposed by government; ministers will argue it will help nurses, teachers and others cope with the cost of living crisis as inflation is expected to top 11 per cent in the autumn.

Perhaps had DfT allowed 5% months ago the rail industry wouldn't be in conflict that its now facing

 

[the sniper]

Perhaps had DfT allowed 5% months ago the rail industry wouldn't be in conflict that its now facing

Well that'd have certainly been a more sensible proposition. Instead of talking about shutting the railway down because the country can't possible stretch beyond 0%... 2%, sorry, 4%, while also trying to chuck various chunks of reform onto the bonfire of doom.

Reuters free version of the story: https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/uk-public-sector-workers-get-5-pay-rise-ft-2022-07-15/

Though they'll probably continue the silly games and offer rail staff 1% less than everyone else.

 

[43066]

Instead of talking about shutting the railway down

Spare at home, you say? I’ll eagerly look out for the notification of closure of the railway in the WON.

 

[High Dyke]

More to the point: why does every thread on railway industrial relations end up discussing nursing?

I have never understood that either. I’ve never even done a first aid course as a train driver so why the continuing comparison?

Perhaps it's so that Government and management know where to place the sticky plaster trying to make things better?

 

[dctraindriver]

I should stress that I am not involved with the industrial relations strategy in this dispute.

What I am saying, though, is that in any dispute such as this the employer will have an exit strategy. And that has to cover all possible options, including options if all reasonable attempts have been made at negotiation without success. That could lead to closure of some or part of the system, most probably temporarily.

To be fair the union strategy is to close most of the network - temporarily of course.



the busiest day of the week is Friday. Saturdays have about 20-25% fewer passengers than a Friday.

Thanks for your update. You’re one of the people on here I take note on. (Sniper too). I sometimes find your posts leaving much to think on and a sense of where are you going with your reply, I appreciate it when you tell it how you see things due to your experiences.

 

[SA91]

More to the point: why does every thread on railway industrial relations end up discussing nursing?

No idea. This Jayah person seems to think requiring a medicine degree to be a medical doctor is another barrier for entry, just like there's barriers for entry into becoming a train driver. Think they want everything handed to them without having to prove themselves. Maybe Aslef should become Aslenf so they can also start fighting for nurses.

 

[Bantamzen]

Well, based on this response, it appears you didn’t even read the first sentence!

I did read it, the comment about ticket levels being "decent" particularly made me chuckle. Did you forget about the cluster-you-know-what situation the franchise system was in pre-covid? The industry is going to be need to be bringing in a lot more than "decent" levels of revenue before the Treasury can take a massive step back without risking more franchise collapses.

I’m not quite sure what you mean by “push the reverse button into the private sector” - the ownership of the railway hasn’t changed and it hasn’t actiallh been “nationalised”. The decision to notionally categorise it as “public sector” perhaps made sense when the ERMAs were first implemented but should - in time - be reversed,
as subsidy reduces to more “normal” levels. My point was that bringing that forward would be a politician friendly way of answering complaints from other parts of the public sector about railway pay rises…

You mean more railway workers wanting a large pay rise friendly surely? I mean the crux of your argument seems to be that the government should be moving heaven and earth to satisfy your demands, be that through quantitive easing or reversing the financial support keeping your industry going & stuff any potential consequences. Well I'm afraid its just not that simple, so long as the government continues to offer additional support to keep you in your jobs, they are going to want to have their say, just as with the public sector at large. And right now their are far more important financial challenges than your industry, meaning that the government is much more likely to take your unions head on, which will help nobody in the long run.

I'm sorry that you are used to working in an environment long used to reasonable pay rises, but we are were we are right now. All you are doing by striking is making the situation potentially worse for yourselves, and certainly worse for the poor smucks that actually use the services you deliver.

I expect you’ll agree with me that, if this car crash of a government was *really* concerned about reducing subsidy, they’d be actively growing the fare box bu supporting the railway in delivering robust, dependable timetables. Doing so would likely include steps such as allowing TOCs to negotiate sensibly with unions, and abandoning the penny wise pound foolish approach to RDW arrangements on TPE? Sadly they seem more interested in political posturing and engaging in ideological battles with trade unions.

Yes the government are involved in an ideological battle with trade unions, and the rail unions are literally feeding them this. We are still two years away from a general election, and with Boris now chased away from the Tory campfire they will become even more emboldened and will want a headline busting opportunity to appease their supporters. And where do you suppose they will find that? Oh look, the trade unions are kicking off...

Well quite. Of course finance companies making tax payer subsidised profits (at far higher profit margins than TOCs enjoy) from extortionate railway leasing arrangements aren’t the problem - it’s those awful staff who are holding the country to ransom and must be ground into the dust!

Oh come on nobody is saying that, stop feeling sorry for yourself. What some of us are saying is that the economy is in a right mess, and rail workers striking is just making things worse & will become increasingly unpopular as more strikes bite. And whilst some rail workers are still under the delusion that passengers will just keep coming back regardless, widespread disruption is going to slowly erode passenger dependence on the railways especially as the industry relies more & more heavily on a more volatile leisure market which will directly be affected by ticket price rises and inflation in general. You don't agree I know, but I firmly believe you are doing more harm than good engaging in this particular battle.