Railway Industrial Disputes Mk2

[Dunnideer]

Yet last week Mick Lynch was saying that it was the threat of compulsory redundancies that was the sticking point. Is it true that that threat has now been removed?

No, they’ve said that they hope people will take voluntary rendundancy in sufficient numbers to mean no compulsory redundancys will be needed. They have offered an assurance that any compulsory redundancys wouldn’t start until 2024, when the voluntary severance scheme closes, but they haven’t actually said what the new structure of the business will be yet.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

At the moment, the Tory party are living in an echo chamber where they are the centre of the universe. However when the realities of government kick in for the new PM, they should realise that long industrial disputes inconveniencing the general population have the potential to become a "who governs Britain" type moment, with the electorate potentially deciding "clearly not you".

The Conservative Party appear to think that there is still a long time to go before the next General Election and having still a large overall majority, they still are the party in power with their "hands on the steering wheel of the economy". Until that next General Election is held, there is not much the electorate can do to make policy decisions....unless you feel a "Sri Lanka" scenario will appear in Britain.

 

[Robertj21a]

The hope is that the industry can quietly ditch some of the more contentious changes to T&C's whilst offering the 5% or thereabouts pay rise which seems to have been accepted elsewhere on the railway.

Then the unions can say "look, we've got all these bad changes to T&C's dropped" while government can say "look, we've held them to near the standard 5% public sector pay rise".

Not sure that is what will happen. The government need to see real changes to Terms and Conditions. Pay is only likely to increase by up to a 5% average - hopefully, the poorest paid get a bigger increase.

 

[yorksrob]

The Conservative Party appear to think that there is still a long time to go before the next General Election and having still a large overall majority, they still are the party in power with their "hands on the steering wheel of the economy". Until that next General Election is held, there is not much the electorate can do to make policy decisions....unless you feel a "Sri Lanka" scenario will appear in Britain.

Two years isn't a long time in the scheme of things. It didn't take long for John Majors "fresh" new government to turn into over ten years of opposition.

 

[Wolfie]

At the moment, the Tory party are living in an echo chamber where they are the centre of the universe. However when the realities of government kick in for the new PM, they should realise that long industrial disputes inconveniencing the general population have the potential to become a "who governs Britain" type moment, with the electorate potentially deciding "clearly not you".

The media will undoubtedly be reminding the populace of the 1970s when the TUs thought that they did. Never ever should that be so.

 

[yorksrob]

The media will undoubtedly be reminding the populace of the 1970s when the TUs thought that they did. Never ever should that be so.

My point is that governments which weren't seen as managing industrial relations sufficiently, were removed.

Mrs Thatcher put a lot of thought and effort into making sure that the miners strike didn't inconvenience the wider public. Such an option is not available with regard to the passenger railway.

 

[Snow1964]

I’m not sure anyone expects an inflation matching, nevermind beating pay deal. I certainly don’t, nor anyone I speak to at NR.

The maintenance stuff is the biggest killer at the moment, often than that the payrise is pretty close to what people want.

Inflation will be back in the headlines tomorrow as ONS is scheduled to release June’s inflation figure on morning of 20th July

There is a risk that if it goes up again, then some peoples expectations will rise (even if they don’t expect inflation matching)

 

[FormerBritInMe]

unless you feel a "Sri Lanka" scenario will appear in Britain.

Is there a swimming pool at 10 Downing St. that people can jump into?
Would be welcomed I'm sure in the present heat wave.

 

[Goldfish62]

There is a risk that if it goes up again, then some peoples expectations will rise (even if they don’t expect inflation matching)

That's irrelevant. A cost of living rise, as acknowledged on the BBC by Mick Lynch the other day, is a rise in line with inflation as at the pay anniversary date. As explained several times on this thread the monthly inflation rate is not actually the rate at that point in time, but is the rolling average of the previous 12 months.

 

[tomuk]

didn't inconvenience the wider public. Such an option is not available with regard to the passenger railway.

But rail strikes don't effect the wider public these days. According to YouGov surveys back in 2018 pre covid 40% of people never use the train and two thirds of people don't use the train more than 4 times a year. Post covid daily commuting is way down and people are geared up to work from home even if they aren't already doing it permanently. Where is all this inconvenience?

 

[yorksrob]

But rail strikes don't effect the wider public these days. According to YouGov surveys back in 2018 pre covid 40% of people never use the train and two thirds of people don't use the train more than 4 times a year. Post covid daily commuting is way down and people are geared up to work from home even if they aren't already doing it permanently. Where is all this inconvenience?

That suggests that a third of the population use the train reasonably frequently. That's quite a large proportion of the general public.

 

[Falcon1200]

That suggests that a third of the population use the train reasonably frequently. That's quite a large proportion of the general public.

That is an interesting statistic, but the figures may well vary wildly in different parts of the country ! The people I know in my street never, ever, use the train; They all have cars so mostly use them. Some do go into Glasgow on public transport but by bus, not train, even though much slower, as it stops near their house.

 

[Bald Rick]

Yet last week Mick Lynch was saying that it was the threat of compulsory redundancies that was the sticking point. Is it true that that threat has now been removed?

Yes and no. It was no compulsory redundancies for NR maintenance if the offer was accepted. It had already been confirmed that there were no compulsory redundancies for NR operations and stations staff.

(The no compulsory redundancy offer is for a specific time period, as obviously you can’t have an indefinite no compulsory redundancy proposal).

But the offer was rejected. Strictly speaking that means there is no offer on the table.

 

[yorksrob]

That is an interesting statistic, but the figures may well vary wildly in different parts of the country ! The people I know in my street never, ever, use the train; They all have cars so mostly use them. Some do go into Glasgow on public transport but by bus, not train, even though much slower, as it stops near their house.

I agree that there will be variation across the country. But a third of the population is still a large proportion to deliberately annoy over a long period.

I wonder how the proportion of more than infrequent rail users compares with the proportion of pensioners or the proportion of households with children in schooling - cohorts which when considered as a whole cause the government to consider their policies with some care.

 

[tomuk]

That suggests that a third of the population use the train reasonably frequently. That's quite a large proportion of the general public.

What do you call reasonably frequently? In the quoted YouGov survey only 14% used the railway more than once a month. Again that was pre covid before commuting was decimated.

 

[Signal_Box]

Yet last week Mick Lynch was saying that it was the threat of compulsory redundancies that was the sticking point. Is it true that that threat has now been removed?

Yes, no CR for life of the deal 2 years, we’ll now 18 months.

Not sure that is what will happen. The government need to see real changes to Terms and Conditions. Pay is only likely to increase by up to a 5% average - hopefully, the poorest paid get a bigger increase.

Why should only the poor get the biggest raise ?

Am I not worthy of a decent raise because I’ve made something of my life through hard work?

 

[Watershed]

Why should only the poor get the biggest raise ?

Am I not worthy of a decent raise because I’ve made something of my life through hard work?

For the same reason that tax rates increase as you earn more.

The average person on £20k is likely to have seen an increase of perhaps 15% in their living costs. The same can't be said for the average person on £40k, for instance.

The current high levels of inflation are most dramatic on essentials. So an increase of £1000 or 4%, whichever is more, would actually be a lot fairer than it might sound.

 

[baz962]

But rail strikes don't effect the wider public these days. According to YouGov surveys back in 2018 pre covid 40% of people never use the train and two thirds of people don't use the train more than 4 times a year. Post covid daily commuting is way down and people are geared up to work from home even if they aren't already doing it permanently. Where is all this inconvenience?

If it wasn't so inconvenient, then the government wouldn't moan about it and threaten minimum service levels and this thread wouldn't have 700 odd posts and Mick Lynch wouldn't of been on lots of TV programs.

But rail strikes don't effect the wider public these days. According to YouGov surveys back in 2018 pre covid 40% of people never use the train and two thirds of people don't use the train more than 4 times a year. Post covid daily commuting is way down and people are geared up to work from home even if they aren't already doing it permanently. Where is all this inconvenience?

 

[Signal_Box]

For the same reason that tax rates increase as you earn more.

The average person on £20k is likely to have seen an increase of perhaps 15% in their living costs. The same can't be said for the average person on £40k, for instance.

The current high levels of inflation are most dramatic on essentials. So an increase of £1000 or 4%, whichever is more, would actually be a lot fairer than it might sound.

I’m the one sat here boiling as I can’t afford to put a fan on!

I’m sick of this poor people get this that and the other rubbish.

 

[TheBigD]

I’m the one sat here boiling as I can’t afford to put a fan on!

I’m sick of this poor people get this that and the other rubbish.

This is a very left wing forum. The left hate success and the fact you've worked hard and made something of your life.
There's even a thread on here asking if hard work is worth it!

 

[Robertj21a]

That suggests that a third of the population use the train reasonably frequently. That's quite a large proportion of the general public.

There's something totally wrong with those figures. Other statistics have suggested that only about 10% of the UK population regularly use trains. A few more use trains occasionally.

Just looking at the high proportion of people far away from rail lines and, in particular, the vast number of private cars, that suggests that 10% must be close to the actual figure.

 

[tomuk]

If it wasn't so inconvenient, then the government wouldn't moan about it and threaten minimum service levels

The strike gives the government a target to go at it just throws red meat to their supporters

and this thread wouldn't have 700 odd posts and Mick Lynch wouldn't of been on lots of TV programs.

Well I suppose Mick Lynch is better than more repeats of Bargain Hunt.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Not seen anyone post but Guardian are reporting that Public Sector pay rises are to be;
4% Nurses/Midwives
4.5% Doctors/Dentists
5% Teachers (8.9% increase to base rate for new starters)
5% Police

And yet nowhere near that from TOCs.

 

[Signal_Box]

This is a very left wing forum. The left hate success and the fact you've worked hard and made something of your life.
There's even a thread on here asking if hard work is worth it!

I have noticed there’s a sizeable membership who hate anyone who has worked hard to achieve in life.

I often think they hate themselves for doing the same, guilt might be a more tamer way of putting it.

I however do not hate myself, I’ve worked bloody hard to get where I am and I’m not going to suck up a poor pay raise or decrease my life standard because some people lack the ability to succeed in life or are just plain lazy.

 

[Need2]

The average person on £20k is likely to have seen an increase of perhaps 15% in their living costs. The same can't be said for the average person on £40k, for instance.

How do you work that one out?
The cost of living has increased for everyone, more so for the higher earners when you factor in NI increases.

 

[dk1]

Not seen anyone post but Guardian are reporting that Public Sector pay rises are to be;
4% Nurses/Midwives
4.5% Doctors/Dentists
5% Teachers (8.9% increase to base rate for new starters)
5% Police

And yet nowhere near that from TOCs.

I think the TOCs would be delighted to give us something nearer what’s been asked. Unfortunately the pesky DfT are more involved these days Grrrr!!

 

[Msq71423]

Sky News reports the police pay increase is actually a fixed salary increase of £1900 across the board, representing an increase of 8.8% for the lowest paid and 0.6% for the highest paid (averaging 5%).

They also report the lowest paid nurses and midwives are to get 9.3% backdated to April.

Armed forces 3.75%, senior ranks 3.5%

Judges 3%

It seems the lowest paid are benefitting the most.

Interesting approach for the police increase with a fixed cash increase across the board.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

I think the TOCs would be delighted to give us something nearer what’s been asked. Unfortunately the pesky DfT are more involved these days Grrrr!!

Surely this given the unions more ammunition in talks though seeing as DfT say we're Public Sector now, other than Armed forces, it's quite consistent

Sky News reports the police pay increase is actually a fixed salary increase of £1900 across the board, representing an increase of 8.8% for the lowest paid and 0.6% for the highest paid (averaging 5%).

They also report the lowest paid nurses and midwives are to get 9.3% backdated to April.

Armed forces 3.75%, senior ranks 3.5%

Judges 3%

It seems the lowest paid are benefitting the most.

Interesting approach for the police increase with a fixed cash increase across the board.

The nurses one is incorrect, it's cleaners and other low paid staff that will get 9.3%, nurses is 4%

 

[dk1]

Surely this given the unions more ammunition in talks though seeing as DfT say we're Public Sector now, other than Armed forces, it's quite consistent

I would like to think so. Makes me wonder if that was why he made out he was more determined than ever to beat strikers earlier this week. Smoke screen? Who knows?

 

[Bald Rick]

I’m the one sat here boiling as I can’t afford to put a fan on!

It must be a very big fan. My medium size fan costs a penny an hour.