Reading 61306 'Mayflower' Incident 13/6/15

[TheEdge]

I doubt this would be a death knell for WCRC (based on current information), this sort of thing can happen easily on any non interlocked stock where it is still in use for a variety of reasons and it would seen (again based on current information) that it was handled properly by WCRC.

 

[dk1]

Looks likely to be a 'safety of the line' issue & will need to be investigated of course but as any operating incident. Just unlucky that it's WCR so soon after regaining their licence.

 

[carriageline]

I think people are forgetting how it works? Just because traincrew has possibly dropped a clanger, doesn't mean they will lose their license.

Remember, they wasn't suspended because of the SPAD, but of concerns over their CMS and SMS. If NR/ORR are confident that everything is inline with the CMS and SMS then nothing will happen to the company. Same as any dispatch incident from any other TOC.

 

[dk1]

I think people are forgetting how it works? Just because traincrew has possibly dropped a clanger, doesn't mean they will lose their license.

Remember, they wasn't suspended because of the SPAD, but of concerns over their CMS and SMS. If NR/ORR are confident that everything is inline with the CMS and SMS then nothing will happen to the company. Same as any dispatch incident from any other TOC.

Exactly. We wouldn't have any TOCs or FOCs left if that was the case.

 

[Aictos]

Why not wait to find out the details, then, before indulging in such dramatic speculation? The critical thing, as far as the ORR and Network Rail are concerned, will be how the management deal with the situation, not the incident itself (which, in turn, sounds relatively minor considering the potential consequences of the SPAD at Wootton Bassett). In the meantime, Network Rail don't have to agree to permit WCRC to operate on the national network - rather, if they have further valid concerns, they can withdraw their right to do so, as they did previously.

Just expressing my view that this incident won't have done them any favours, whatever the reason it was for the incident.

 

[carriageline]

Just expressing my view that this incident won't have done them any favours, whatever the reason it was for the incident.

Read my previous post..

 

[Minilad]

I think it will be more about how they deal with the incident than the incident itself

 

[Harlan Cage]

The only practicable way of tying doors into the Driver's role would be some form of hazard light, fitted where it was visible in the cab and could be checked as part of the dispatch procedure - but of course, this would require the coaching stock to be fitted with Central Locking, which they aren't. Even if they were, such a system hasn't been deemed necessary even on the HST fleet, so I'd think the chances of anything similar appearing on heritage stock are very slim.

Just to add some wider context to this incident, mainline HST operators are very familiar with 'train moved in the platform' incidents; it isn't a daily occurrence but it certainly isn't unheard of either.

There was one at Penzance recently (I think an HST) which caused a furore at the time!

HC

 

[LAX54]

Read one of the reports, not good really, passcom operation stopped the train though. seems like the train staff could not see what the problem was after either !

 

[TDK]

Read one of the reports, not good really, passcom operation stopped the train though. seems like the train staff could not see what the problem was after either !

That depends on who pulled the passcom.

 

[LAX54]

Heard it was a WCR member who jumped back on the train,

 

[Bertie the bus]

The critical thing, as far as the ORR and Network Rail are concerned, will be how the management deal with the situation, not the incident itself (which, in turn, sounds relatively minor considering the potential consequences of the SPAD at Wootton Bassett).

I doubt that will be considered the only important thing. I would assume, and hope, they will want to know the crew were fully briefed regarding dispatch procedures at the stations they called at. Safety Management Systems aren’t just about dealing with the aftermath of incidents but preventing incidents occurring in the first place. Although I find the mistaken whistle theory too bizarre to be true. I’ve never worked on the railway and even I know a whistle doesn’t mean off you go.

 

[RPTC]

I can recall a few times in the long distance past where a train has moved very slowly for short distance at a station and stopped by a quickly. No one was hurt and no fuss was made and whilst I am not condoning this type of incident we do need to get a sense or perspective when issues occur. WCRC are currently walking on eggshells with a lot of people looking for something to for then to fail and point fingers and get some perverse pleasure for some obscure secure reason!


Warning to all that want to live in a perfect World - You are going to be very dissapointed for the rest of your lives!

HC

Utter cobblers. The behaviour of WCRC at various points regarding safety at various points was a disgrace and it is by pure luck that they are not the wrong end of a mass fatality collision and some serious prosecutions and paying for funeral expenses. I suggest you start at the beginning of this thread and read it carefully, including the various reports in full.

The world may not be perfect, but we can do without those who think that safety is just something can be played at, ignored at a whim and place dozens of innocent lives in danger. It would be no loss to have WCRC off the railway permanently. It is absolutely right they are walking on eggshells, it is entirely deserved and self-inflicted. That they were suspended by NR and had to bring in specialist consultants to advise them how to run a safe TOC and give them any credibility to be able to operate on NR metals tells us all we need to know about the competence of their management.

 

[455driver]

If this was a proper TOC I am sure the usual suspects would be screaming for the guilty person to be sacked but because this involves WCR they are all saying it is no big deal, well unfortunately a train moving without authority is (rightly) treated very seriously and it is a big deal.

You all carry on with your WCR love in, those of us who have to share the rails with this micky mouse outfit look forward to the day they are swept from the rails for good.

Okay they run most of the steam trains and that will be a problem (at least for a while) but they don't (appear to) have a safe system of train dispatch despite the number of trips they run, how can that be right!

 

[47802]

Thankfully not. Secondary door locking (manual bolts) is fine on the mainline with the relevant derogation and there are no restrictions on preserved lines.

If a little primitive to say the least I notice on the North York Moors they operate that way on the Network Rail section to Whitby, I was somewhat surprised the first time I saw that in action, I guess it works well enough on the North York Moors, and fitting some form of CDL to MK1's would no doubt be expensive.

As for this incident I will make no comment, probably enough armchair judges as it is.

 

[Tomnick]

I doubt that will be considered the only important thing. I would assume, and hope, they will want to know the crew were fully briefed regarding dispatch procedures at the stations they called at. Safety Management Systems aren’t just about dealing with the aftermath of incidents but preventing incidents occurring in the first place. Although I find the mistaken whistle theory too bizarre to be true. I’ve never worked on the railway and even I know a whistle doesn’t mean off you go.

Quite right, of course, and that's really what I meant (although the SMS should be squeaky clean after the recent efforts!). My main point was that the incident itself wasn't the end of the world - it's the bigger picture, and the management of safety generally, that matters.

 

[6Gman]

Seriously - speaking as someone who was once involved in planning the operation of steam charters - I would be looking very closely at the competencies, route knowledge etc of all those involved in this incident which could - clearly - have been very dangerous.

 

[akonig2]

i was there last night. She arrived on time, due to stay for 3min,s. She went to leave bang on time, with a green light. travelled about 3-4 ft and stopped. Then withdrawn. i thought it was to let one other out next platform, then one in. obviously got it wrong, because she sat there for about an hour before being towed away by a class 37. No one would say what had happened. i was at far end of platform 13, near light,s.

 

[Millsy1980]

Can anybody who uses the word unlucky or unfortunate please think long and hard , this isn't a giant adult train set , it's a safety criticle environment which wcrc belittle and look for a quick buck and deserve all that's coming their way !!

 

[ainsworth74]

I've merged the discussion of this latest incident into one thread. Some of the posts before this one were originally located in this thread.

 

[wensley]

Ironically exactly the same thing happened at Kings Cross but as it was DBS..?

Exactly.

The incident at Kings Cross was very similar in nature, but has had nowhere near the attention this has recieved.

Whilst this is most definitely a safety of the line issue, and had the potential to cause serious harm, WCRC seem to have dealt with it in a professional manner, and ensured absolute safety of the train and all concerned before any further movement took place. Humans do make mistakes after all ... it's if there's an underlying cause then alarm bells start ringing!

As for dispatch methods, it will vary from station to station. Some will use RA, I know on the ECML it is standard practice for the lead dispatcher to pass a green flag/lamp to the Driver once platform duties are complete. To the best of my knowledge the back-to-back radios used by WCRC are not for dispatch purposes, but do provide a means for loco crew and Guard to communicate if neccessary.

 

[E&W Lucas]

If a little primitive to say the least I notice on the North York Moors they operate that way on the Network Rail section to Whitby, I was somewhat surprised the first time I saw that in action, I guess it works well enough on the North York Moors, and fitting some form of CDL to MK1's would no doubt be expensive.

.

Not quite, the NYMR stock has manual door bolts, but they are limited to 25mph unless there are a given number of door stewards on the train. In reality, it's 25 mph to Whitby most of the time.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If this was a proper TOC I am sure the usual suspects would be screaming for the guilty person to be sacked but because this involves WCR they are all saying it is no big deal, well unfortunately a train moving without authority is (rightly) treated very seriously and it is a big deal.

!

Seconded.

Slam door stock carries a huge dispatch risk. Ask anyone who is involved in working with HSTs. Google Platform Train Interface risk, and I'm sure you will find lots of up to date information, to help you put this incident in context.

A train moving with the doors open, no matter how short the distance, is a potential fatality.

 

[Harlan Cage]

Here is a video of the incident courtesy of Harry Pollard

https://l.facebook.com/l/KAQE0UlMDAQFtQ5dS-Wv36Q7dpkAt_3dzV1NOi5bl55T7GA/https%3A%2F%2Fm.flickr.com%2F%2523%2Fphotos%2Fdanwarman1%2F18789584972%2F

HC

 

[stopblock]

Just to put things n a differant light. There was a simular incident at Kings Cross with a DB charter on Saturday. Driver misread the RA for another platform.
The train continued as normal with its booked crew as incident was reoported imeadiatley through the correct channels.

 

[ExRes]

Just to put things n a differant light. There was a simular incident at Kings Cross with a DB charter on Saturday. Driver misread the RA for another platform.
The train continued as normal with its booked crew as incident was reoported imeadiatley through the correct channels.

I would consider him/her to be a very lucky driver indeed, relief and screening would've been my expectation if I was unsure which platform my train had been on

 

[SPADTrap]

The train continued as normal with its booked crew as incident was reoported imeadiatley through the correct channels

Wasn't it stopped at Digswell as no one had informed the signaller?

 

[carriageline]

Just to put things n a differant light. There was a simular incident at Kings Cross with a DB charter on Saturday. Driver misread the RA for another platform.

The train continued as normal with its booked crew as incident was reoported imeadiatley through the correct channels.

Doesn't mean anything. I've had drivers taken off for a lot less than misreading a RA!

 

[Sacro]

Just to put things n a differant light. There was a simular incident at Kings Cross with a DB charter on Saturday. Driver misread the RA for another platform.
The train continued as normal with its booked crew as incident was reoported imeadiatley through the correct channels.

The driver continued as normal with its booked crew as the incident was reported only to the platform staff. As soon as it got to the correct channels the train was stopped at Digswell Junction.

 

[Michael.Y]

Regardless of operator, stock, haulage, power etc, this is a clear incidence of a train starting without authorisation, end of. Anyone who has been briefed in platform procedures will know that if a train moves without authorisation from the person in charge of the platform / dispatch procedure, it is an operating incident and the full debrief and post-incident procedures must be followed.

 

[wensley]

Regardless of operator, stock, haulage, power etc, this is a clear incidence of a train starting without authorisation, end of. Anyone who has been briefed in platform procedures will know that if a train moves without authorisation from the person in charge of the platform / dispatch procedure, it is an operating incident and the full debrief and post-incident procedures must be followed.

Exactly! As also mentioned further down the thread slam door trains have a heightened level of risk in terms of dispatch, especially when not CDL fitted.

Dispatch of slam door trains need's everybody's full attention, or the consequences could be very nasty. A door being put on the catch after platform duties are completed always makes the heart beat a little faster!