Received a Pre-court Action but would like to contest it

[bb21]

I was reading other posts in this forum and other companies do send letters to travellers for explanation. I never had that opportunity. Sending a letter to me and say "pay or you have the risk of being prosecuted" is just... I cant even find a proper adj to describe this.

I think someone else has pointed out that you will always be given your chance to argue your side of the story at the court, should you allow it to proceed that far, but of course if you settle out of court, that opportunity will be lost as the case never goes in front of the magistrates.

Before that there is no guarantee. If they consider that they had enough evidence to proceed with taking the case to court without further contribution from you, they don't have to give you another chance to argue your side. This is the same for all companies. If they had felt that they were unsure, they would almost certainly give you an opportunity to explain your side of the story in order to decide whether they had sufficient evidence to proceed but obviously in your case they felt confident that they had sufficient evidence (rightly or wrongly) to proceed.

So they know you won't take the risk of going to court because they can afford losing a small court action but you can't.

Unfortunately true, and same when dealing with many powerful organisations.

Very unfair in my eyes, but just the way things are.

I should apologize for that as it is definitely not the best of me and I'm not proud of it.

This is the first time I am accused of something criminal in my entire life so found it hard to accept. But at the end of the day life is life we all have to carry on.

You don't need to apologise, and don't take the whole matter personally. As I pointed out at the beginning of this thread, it is very easy to fall foul of many parts of railway legislation without even realizing it so don't beat yourself on it.

 

[najaB]

I was reading other posts in this forum and other companies do send letters to travellers for explanation. I never had that opportunity.

Just so that you know, TOCs don't always give the passenger the chance to put their side of the story - sometimes the first thing that arrives through the letterbox is a summons. In this case they obviously felt that the evidence they had already was sufficient.

I know it doesn't feel like it but you have been somewhat lucky - not everyone gets an offer to settle out of court and even when they do the sum involved will be considerably higher than what GWR have offered you.

If you really want a chance to make your case then you can refuse this offer and have your day in court, but I'll say again this would be a *BAD* idea as your actions match those of a fare dodger and you have no way to prove that you are not.

 

[furlong]

As I said in an earlier post, if you're not confident about negotiating over the phone, one way to set out your case while not risking a summons is to send them two cheques with your explanation. If they cash both, you can still try to escalate it through customer services/management for an independent internal review.

 

[simonw]

A few more questions:

You say that morning you boarded a train from Keynsham with the intention of getting off at Oldfield Common but as it didn't stop there you carried on to Bath. What ticket had you bought and

How long did you intend to break your outward journey at oldfield Park if your friend was there.

Where had your friend gone that day, and did he take (what ever he had brought with him for you) on that journey?

 

[Miafey]

A few more questions:

You say that morning you boarded a train from Keynsham with the intention of getting off at Oldfield Common but as it didn't stop there you carried on to Bath. What ticket had you bought and

How long did you intend to break your outward journey at oldfield Park if your friend was there.

Where had your friend gone that day, and did he take (what ever he had brought with him for you) on that journey?

A single from Keynsham to Bath Spa bought at the barrier at Bath Spa station. Keynsham has a ticket office in the morning but it is on the other side of the platform and it is very common that people aboard the train at Keynsham or oldfield park buy tickets at Bath Spa. I've done it a couple of times and many others do as well. There is normally a queue there buying tickets from one or two officers when a train arrives in the morning. According to the discussion above it actually should not be allowed as Keynsham and Oldfield park both have ticketing facilities in the morning. But it has never been a problem. That might help you understand why in the evening I did not think it was a problem either.


If my friend were there my journey that morning would have ended at Oldfield Park. Because Oldfield Park is only about 20 min walk away from Bath city center (about 1-2 miles) so there was no need for me to take the train again from Oldfield Park to Bath Spa. I could simply walk there after I meet up with my friend.


You may also want to ask in that case why did I decide to take the train in the evening to Oldfield Park, instead of just walking there.


I was in Bath city center at that time of the day, there is a train at that time, and so I thought I could save myself some walk. I also had a bag full of veg on the train and that was partly the reason why I stood there waiting for the RPI instead of approaching him. If you have been on this service before you'd know, as it's rush hour in the evening the carriage is normally packed. The train only have two carriages and it is perhaps the most popular service between Bath and Bristol during that time of the day. The earlier train stops at oldfield park and Keynsham is the 17:12 service which is a bit early for working people and the next one is 19:08 which is a bit too late. The 18:08 is what people normally get on from work. I had a rather bulky bag with me so I did not want to squeeze for a ticket as I thought I'd have my chance when he got to me.


As for your last question, he went to UWE (I said so in my last post in response to your last question already, UWE = University of the West of England). We did not say any specific time for meet in the evening as he did not know when he'd finish yet. As you'd imagine because I was in Bath that day and oldfield park is not too far away, I was alright with not fixing a time well in advance. As soon as he let me know when he'd be back, I'd get there in at most 30 mins.


He had the thing with him.


He finished at around 5pm and texted me to say he would get the 17:23 service, getting to oldfield park around 6pm. I checked the train time on my phone and there is a train from Bath to Oldfiled park around that time. So I decided to take the train. I then went shopping a bit (hence the veg bag) until around 6pm I got to Bath Spa and purchased a ticket.


He did not know the train was delayed until he got to filton abbey wood. And he did not know exactly how long it was delayed. As with most of the trains you don't get the exact delay time until the train actually arrives. At the beginning the screen only shows a couple of minutes delay, and then longer, and then even longer. So he did not know how much the train was delayed until almost 6pm I believe. As according to the schedule his train would arrive in oldfield park around 10 mins before mine (18:03 vs 18:11), when his train originally showed delayed it was not a big problem. And until it was delayed to certain extent the most convenient place for us to meet was still oldfield park.


Again he did not take the train everyday so he was not even familiar with the journey time between stations. He heard the announcement on the train saying the train would stop at Keynsham before oldfield park and thought as he had already got delayed we could perhaps meet up at Keynsham, he gave me the stuff first and then we could either sort out dinner or I could drive him back later that day.

It was not a good idea, but again I did not have time to ask him not to. I complained to him on that day as well. As you'd imagine I was really not in very good mood when I met him in the evening. But it has happened so what else could I say?

 

[Alan White]

Other people are better qualified than I to comment on the technical aspects of this issue but I can say what I would do in the circumstances described by the OP, and that may help him decide what to do.

Firstly I place myself in the OP's shoes. I was planning to travel to Oldfield Park so I bought a ticket to there. My ticket was checked on the train just as it arrived at Oldfield Park. I alighted at Oldfield Park but before the train left I discovered that my plans had been changed and I no longer needed to be at Oldfield Park. I knew that the next train wasn't for an hour; that there were no ticket purchasing facilities at Oldfield Park at that time; and that it was normal practice on that line to buy a ticket on the train. I therefore boarded and waited for the guard to come round to buy a ticket from him. Instead of selling me a ticket the guard took my details and some time later I received a request to pay £80 plus the fare.

Would I be aggrieved at such a request? Yes, because I know I did not avoid paying the fare; rather, I was ready and willing to pay it as soon as the guard asked for it. Would I go to court to explain the circumstances? Yes, I would, if that was the only way to do so. I don't believe anyone should ever admit guilt if one believes in one's innocence.

Secondly, I place myself in the shoes of a magistrate hearing the case. My view will depend only on whether I believe the OP's account, particularly on whether his plans changed as described. From what he's said, I see no reason to disbelieve him, nor do I see why a fare dodger* who's just had his ticket checked would get back on the same train knowing that his lack of ticket would be obvious to the same person who'd just checked, and who had approached him a second time selling tickets to others. I would also note that it is normal practice on that line to buy tickets on the train, as evidenced by the guard's actions with another customer, the OP's previous experiences, and, presumably, evidence from the train company which will know how it normally collects fares on that route. In short, I don't see that there's any evidence to suggest that the OP was trying to avoid paying the fare he now required following the change of plan.

This case is ultimately down to the knowledge of the OP and the opinion of a court. If the railway won't listen to the customer then the only solution for a person who believes he's been wrongly accused is to go to court.


* Others have commented that the OP's actions are typical of a fare dodger. That may be so, but doesn't make him a fare dodger. I'm reminded of the time when I made a small online purchase on a credit card, then almost immediately made a large online purchase on the same card from a different supplier. The second purchase was declined. I took up the issue with the card provider which told me that my actions were typical of a fraudster. We exchanged correspondence and eventually the card provider gave profuse apologies and financial compensation for my inconvenience. I think that people who see the same problem frequently come to think that there's always the same cause.

 

[najaB]

...nor do I see why a fare dodger* who's just had his ticket checked would get back on the same train knowing that his lack of ticket would be obvious to the same person who'd just checked.

It's a common tactic for people attempting to dodge fares on a short journey. Buy the cheapest ticket that will get you past the barriers, if you get your ticket checked on the train hop out of one door and back on through another and hope that the guard doesn't notice. Note that the OP said he didn't approach the guard - he had his reasons - but it is one more action that matches what a fare dodger would do.

* Others have commented that the OP's actions are typical of a fare dodger. That may be so, but doesn't make him a fare dodger.

I agree, but if it's a waddling, feathered avian that quacks there is every chance it will be end up being served in orange sauce.

 

[simonw]

Why did the OP not buy a return ticket in the morning? If I understand correctly, this would allow breaks in journey and have cost less.

 

[najaB]

Why did the OP not buy a return ticket in the morning? If I understand correctly, this would allow breaks in journey and have cost less.

The OP has posted that he didn't intend to catch the train home in the evening.

 

[simonw]

The OP has posted that he didn't intend to catch the train home in the evening.

Did he?

I've missed it. Not sure how he intended to get home then.

 

[najaB]

Did he?

I've missed it. Not sure how he intended to get home then.

He did indeed:

I honestly did not have the plan to travel to Keynsham when I boarded the train at Bath. How could I buy a ticket for a journey that I was not even aware of? Just because I live in Keynsham? I don't normally travel by train and I wasn't planning going home by train that day.

 

[gray1404]

Other people are better qualified than I to comment on the technical aspects of this issue but I can say what I would do in the circumstances described by the OP, and that may help him decide what to do.

Firstly I place myself in the OP's shoes. I was planning to travel to Oldfield Park so I bought a ticket to there. My ticket was checked on the train just as it arrived at Oldfield Park. I alighted at Oldfield Park but before the train left I discovered that my plans had been changed and I no longer needed to be at Oldfield Park. I knew that the next train wasn't for an hour; that there were no ticket purchasing facilities at Oldfield Park at that time; and that it was normal practice on that line to buy a ticket on the train. I therefore boarded and waited for the guard to come round to buy a ticket from him. Instead of selling me a ticket the guard took my details and some time later I received a request to pay £80 plus the fare.

Would I be aggrieved at such a request? Yes, because I know I did not avoid paying the fare; rather, I was ready and willing to pay it as soon as the guard asked for it. Would I go to court to explain the circumstances? Yes, I would, if that was the only way to do so. I don't believe anyone should ever admit guilt if one believes in one's innocence.

Secondly, I place myself in the shoes of a magistrate hearing the case. My view will depend only on whether I believe the OP's account, particularly on whether his plans changed as described. From what he's said, I see no reason to disbelieve him, nor do I see why a fare dodger* who's just had his ticket checked would get back on the same train knowing that his lack of ticket would be obvious to the same person who'd just checked, and who had approached him a second time selling tickets to others. I would also note that it is normal practice on that line to buy tickets on the train, as evidenced by the guard's actions with another customer, the OP's previous experiences, and, presumably, evidence from the train company which will know how it normally collects fares on that route. In short, I don't see that there's any evidence to suggest that the OP was trying to avoid paying the fare he now required following the change of plan.

This case is ultimately down to the knowledge of the OP and the opinion of a court. If the railway won't listen to the customer then the only solution for a person who believes he's been wrongly accused is to go to court.


* Others have commented that the OP's actions are typical of a fare dodger. That may be so, but doesn't make him a fare dodger. I'm reminded of the time when I made a small online purchase on a credit card, then almost immediately made a large online purchase on the same card from a different supplier. The second purchase was declined. I took up the issue with the card provider which told me that my actions were typical of a fraudster. We exchanged correspondence and eventually the card provider gave profuse apologies and financial compensation for my inconvenience. I think that people who see the same problem frequently come to think that there's always the same cause.

Totally agree with this post.

It would appear to be the case that the OP got off the train and then, before the train had departed, realised they needed to make a new journey, from an unmanned station where it was not possible to buy a ticket, so I would take the view they have done nothing wrong.

I believe he should have been told the single ticket to the intended station.

It is for the train company to prove his actions were unlawful. It is not for the OP to prove he was not doing anything wrong.

 

[najaB]

It is for the train company to prove his actions were unlawful. It is not for the OP to prove he was not doing anything wrong.

If you are of the opinion that boarding a train at Bath Spa and alighting from that train at Keynsham constitutes a single journey then the OP's actions were unlawful.

If you are of the opinion that stepping onto a train platform constitutes the end of a journey then they were not.

If you take stepping onto the platform out of the picture, the OP had a ticket from Bath Spa to Oldfield park and travelled past that station - this is short faring, whether or not it was intentional.

 

[Fare-Cop]

It is for the train company to prove his actions were unlawful. It is not for the OP to prove he was not doing anything wrong.

That's the long & short of it.

The OP maintains that s/he has done nothing wrong and did not intend to avoid paying any fare.

The Train Operating Company believe that their inspector has identified an offence that might be prosecuted.

It seems that in this case the TOC recognise there is no previous matter in the OP's name and have given an opportunity for Court action to be avoided by the OP accepting their settlement terms as an alternative to Court action.

The OP is not obliged to accept these terms and can choose to have the evidence tested by a Court hearing.

As Gray1404 makes clear, it is for the TOC to prove the alleged offence and the place for that to be examined is at Court if the allegation remains disputed.

 

[gray1404]

When the OP stepped off the train that was the end of their journey. But they then borded the train again but at a station where it would not have been possible to get a ticket anyway, so they tried to buy another ticket for the new journey on board but was refused. That is the view I take. Had it been a station with a ticket office or a TVM then I would say they should have no re-boarded the same train but got a ticket first, which of course was not possible.

 

[bb21]

I'm sure we all like to take that view, but at the end of the day, it is the view of the magistrate that counts, and the magistrate cannot get into the OP's head to see what happened that day, only going by facts presented to him, which in this case is a little unpredictable imo. That is the real underlying issue.

 

[455driver]

Hoe long was the train sat at Oldfield Park?
The OP had enough time to get off the train and move clear, put down his shopping, get out his phone, read a text message, decide on a course of action, pit the phone away, pick up the shopping and get back on the train.

That is some going in 30 seconds or so!

 

[Tetchytyke]

The OP is not obliged to accept these terms and can choose to have the evidence tested by a Court hearing.

As Gray1404 makes clear, it is for the TOC to prove the alleged offence and the place for that to be examined is at Court if the allegation remains disputed.

Yep, this is pretty much the crux of it.

If the OP doesn't like the offer, he can take it to court. I'm not convinced I'd be willing to take the risk, but if the OP feels that strongly then he can test the evidence in court.

As I said previously, I have no reason to disbelieve the OP but any decent prosecutor will use the following facts in evidence:

• The OP began a journey at Bath Spa, buying a ticket to the first station on the route, Oldfield Park
• This ticket is coincidentally the cheapest available ticket to get you through the barrier at Bath Spa, and is £2 less than the single from Bath to Keynsham
• The OP lives in Keynsham, and travelled from Keynsham that morning
• The OP claims he was travelling to Oldfield Park, had his ticket checked by an RPI, got off the train, received/read a text message and then immediately reboarded the same train
• The OP then continued to Keynsham.

If the Court are persuaded that the intended journey was always to Keynsham, then they are likely to believe that the OP short-fared, i.e. travelled or attempted to travel without paying the fare due.

If the Court are persuaded that the intended journey was always to Oldfield Park, but the OP's plans then changed, then they are likely to believe that the OP did not short-fare.

I would not share the confidence of others that the Court will be persuaded that the OP undertook two separate journeys, coincidentally on the same train.

It should be noted, as an aside, that the OP still hasn't paid his fare from Oldfield Park to Keynsham.

I agree, but if it's a waddling, feathered avian that quacks there is every chance it will be end up being served in orange sauce.

Quite

 

[John Palmer]

What evidence could the prosecution call to rebut the OP’s explanation that his intentions changed after he alighted at Oldfield Park? However suspicious the OP’s conduct might appear in the absence of such an explanation, a court must give due weight to it once it is given. And it has the merit of being consistent with what might well prove to be the only incontrovertible and undisputed evidence available: that the OP’s friend’s train was running late.

Context can be vital. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3h-T3KQNxU

 

[gray1404]

Yep, this is pretty much the crux of it.

If the OP doesn't like the offer, he can take it to court. I'm not convinced I'd be willing to take the risk, but if the OP feels that strongly then he can test the evidence in court.

As I said previously, I have no reason to disbelieve the OP but any decent prosecutor will use the following facts in evidence:

• The OP began a journey at Bath Spa, buying a ticket to the first station on the route, Oldfield Park
• This ticket is coincidentally the cheapest available ticket to get you through the barrier at Bath Spa, and is £2 less than the single from Bath to Keynsham
• The OP lives in Keynsham, and travelled from Keynsham that morning
• The OP claims he was travelling to Oldfield Park, had his ticket checked by an RPI, got off the train, received/read a text message and then immediately reboarded the same train
• The OP then continued to Keynsham.

If the Court are persuaded that the intended journey was always to Keynsham, then they are likely to believe that the OP short-fared, i.e. travelled or attempted to travel without paying the fare due.

If the Court are persuaded that the intended journey was always to Oldfield Park, but the OP's plans then changed, then they are likely to believe that the OP did not short-fare.

I would not share the confidence of others that the Court will be persuaded that the OP undertook two separate journeys, coincidentally on the same train.

It should be noted, as an aside, that the OP still hasn't paid his fare from Oldfield Park to Keynsham.



Quite

And a decent person defending the OP will take what line.....???

 

[ian959]

And a decent person defending the OP will take what line.....???

Try to produce clear evidence that would undermine the obvious matters referred too. Produce some concrete evidence of the change of journey intention did actually occur IMMEDIATELY after stepping off the train. Then hopefully try and argue that the journey ended at Oldfield Park and a new journey commenced there - on the same train. That might take some doing... that would almost bring you into the realm of split ticketing which as we all know requires the splits for the continuing journey which MUST be held prior to reaching the station one ticket ends and the next commences.

Without the clear evidence of the change of journey intent, it would be a hard task to convince a magistrate...

 

[najaB]

Try to produce clear evidence that would undermine the obvious matters referred too. Produce some concrete evidence of the change of journey intention did actually occur IMMEDIATELY after stepping off the train.

The OP has already said he is unable to do this - he can provide evidence (though not concrete) of when the message was sent - but cannot provide any evidence of when it was received/read.

This would make successfully defending the charge exceedingly difficult.

 

[455driver]

The OP has already said he is unable to do this - he can provide evidence (though not concrete) of when the message was sent - but cannot provide any evidence of when it was received/read.

This would make successfully defending the charge exceedingly difficult.

For that 'evidence" to be of any use the OP will have to convince the Court that the message was read between getting off the train and the decision being made to reboard the same train.

 

[Tetchytyke]

And a decent person defending the OP will take what line.....???

That the OP had arranged to meet a friend in Oldfield Park before travelling home to Keynsham later. His friend was no longer able to make that meeting and, because of that, the OP's plans changed in the couple of minutes between having his ticket checked and reboarding the train at Oldfield Park. You would also mention that the OP couldn't rebook at Oldfield Park as it is an unstaffed station.

The prosecutor is the one with the burden of proof, which is beyond all reasonable doubt. If the OP can prove that his original plans involved meeting in or near Oldfield Park- who was he meeting and where- that may well be enough to provide a reasonable doubt that he intended to avoid payment of the fare.

 

[Miafey]

Did he?

I've missed it. Not sure how he intended to get home then.

Well, had no fixed plan at that time, but there are only 3 or 4 trains to keynsham in the evening (not very regular, one an hour until 10ish I think). So I did not get a return, because I may well get the bus (38 goes directly to where I live), or I could ask my husband to pick me up in the evening. We do have a car, and I drive (hence I have a driving licence), but I don't normally drive into Bath city center (traffic, parking, etc).

 

[gray1404]

You would also mention that the OP couldn't rebook at Oldfield Park as it is an unstaffed station.

I think this point is key here!

 

[simonw]

Well, had no fixed plan at that time, but there are only 3 or 4 trains to keynsham in the evening (not very regular, one an hour until 10ish I think). So I did not get a return, because I may well get the bus (38 goes directly to where I live), or I could ask my husband to pick me up in the evening. We do have a car, and I drive (hence I have a driving licence), but I don't normally drive into Bath city center (traffic, parking, etc).

Well I hope that whatever happens you come back and tell us the outcome.

 

[Chrisgr31]

Try to produce clear evidence that would undermine the obvious matters referred too. Produce some concrete evidence of the change of journey intention did actually occur IMMEDIATELY after stepping off the train. Then hopefully try and argue that the journey ended at Oldfield Park and a new journey commenced there - on the same train. That might take some doing... that would almost bring you into the realm of split ticketing which as we all know requires the splits for the continuing journey which MUST be held prior to reaching the station one ticket ends and the next commences.

Without the clear evidence of the change of journey intent, it would be a hard task to convince a magistrate...

Also what fare dodger would get back on at the point where they knew the inspector was?

Surely if you were a fare dodger you'd actually walk down the train and board at the furthest point away from the inspector?

 

[najaB]

Also what fare dodger would get back on at the point where they knew the inspector was?

Again, a fare dodger wouldn't want to do anything that looked suspicious like running down the platform to board at the far end of the train. If it is busy enough you use the crowd as cover and sit in a carriage that you know has already been checked - the theory being that if the guard/RPI has already passed that point they aren't likely to do that carriage again.

It's similar to people who suddenly have to go to the loo when there's a ticket check and stay there for a longer than I would ever want to be in a train toilet.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Also what fare dodger would get back on at the point where they knew the inspector was?

A fare dodger who knew the next train home would be in an hour?

Getting on the carriage which has just been checked is far less noticeable than legging it down the platform to get on another door.