Reserved seat for the nipper on First TPE?

[Merseyrail]

Myself, my girlfriend and her three kids are travelling from Liverpool to Scarborough (split tickets at Leeds!) on the First Transpennine Express next month off on our hols.

Her two oldest girls are both over 5yrs and have their own tickets and reserved seats at the table opposite us but her son who is 4 yrs and pushed in a disabled pram (altough can walk short distances but has a tendancy to get excited and run off) doesn't have a ticket due to his age.

However it occured to me after booking the tickets that we've got five people travelling but have only got four reserved seats.

Obviously we all want to stay together if possible on the train but what if the seats at the adjacent / nearby table(s) are reserved by other passangers - where does her son sit?

My first idea was to plonk him between the two girls and get the three of them to share two seats together. However after looking at some interior pics of the class 185's there appears to be a significant gap between the seats that would prevent us doing this.

Another idea might be for me to find an unreserved seat elsewhere on the train and let her little bot have my seat.

Does anyone know what the common policy for kids under the age of 5yrs travelling without a ticket / reserved seat? Surely this must be a common occurence trains?

Any ideas what we could do? Would it help ringing First TPE and asking if they'd reserve him a place at the adjacent table or would this incur an extra charge?

For info our reserved specs are in carraige C at seats 15, 16, 19 and 20 on both the outward and inward journeys.

I have enclosed a link to the seating plan of class 185 DMU's below if it's any help:

http://www.joyce.whitchurch.btinternet.co.uk/class_185.gif

 

[John @ home]

Does anyone know what the common policy for kids under the age of 5yrs travelling without a ticket / reserved seat? Surely this must be a common occurence trains?

Any ideas what we could do?

The policy is likely to be that if you want a reserved seat for a child under 5 you need to buy a child rate ticket.

In practice, when I travel on a TPE Class 185 with a child under 5, I head for the area in Coach A between First Class and the accessible toilet. This has 8 fold-down seats, or 6 seats and 2 fold-up tables, and plenty room for a passenger or two to travel in a wheelchair or unfolded pram. This method worked well yesterday on the 1656 Manchester - Leeds. Joining a train at a terminus such as Liverpool or Scarborough should improve your chances of finding suitable accommodation in this area.

John

 

[asylumxl]

If your local station is manned and has a ticket office, then they should be able to reserve you a seat from their computers.

I've done it before with no issues.

 

[MCR247]

But cant they only do that, if you do it 5(?) hours before the train leaves the origin

 

[Solent&Wessex]

As far as I know, the policy is that you can only reserve a seat in conjunction with a valid ticket. As a child under 4 does not have a ticket, then a seat cannot be reserved. To get a reserved seat, then you would have to buy a ticket.

The idea is that children under 5 do not get a seat, unless one is available.

The Fares Manual states:

"Up to two children aged under 5 (and not occupying Sleeper Berths or reserved seats) may accompany each ticket holder free of charge.

Children under 5 travelling free may occupy a seat providing it is not required by a fare paying customer"

Thus it would seem clear - if you want to guarantee a seat you will need a ticket!

Having said that, as you have already got 4 seats reserved around a table, any additional seats reserved would be away from the table and seated separately. At the moment you are reserved all as a group, so it may be better to put the nipper on your knee, or do as you say, sit 3 kids across 2 seats - although bring a pillow etc to fill the gap between the seats!!!

 

[rail-britain]

There are two issues I can see with this

The first is if you have asked for assistance getting on / off the train
This will be from Coach A
This will mean your group will be split up

If the fifth person has a disabled travel ticket / railcard, then they may be eligible for free travel
I suggest contacting FTPE directly by email and ask them to book an additional seat, as near to Coach C 15 / 16 / 19 / 20 as possible, such as seats 18, 14, 11, or 12

I contacted FTPE directly by email for two reservations and they were confirmed the following day, including attachments with the copies

 

[Merseyrail]

Thanks for the replies. I had a quick wander onto the 2:22pm Liverpool - Scarborough FTPE this afternoon, 5 mins before it was due to leave, just to check the train out before catching my regular Northern Rail train home.

I was reasonably assured with what I saw that things should be OK when we travel.

The gaps between the adjacent seats looked pretty minimal so there's a possibility we could squeze the three of them onto two seats, altough the oldest one is 9yrs so I'm not 100%.

I also noticed that approx 2/3 of the seats were unreserved, with certain sections of the train within standard class having a higher avergage of reserved seats than others. We will be getting to Lime St about 20 mins before departure so I'm confident that if there aren't any free seats by the ones we've booked then we should at least be able to find 5 or 6 spare elsewhere.

I checked the fold down seats by the first class but to be fair they don't look comfortable enough for a three hour journey and I'd only get it in the neck off my gf for making us all sit there!

Fortunately we won't need any assistance getting him onto the train. It's not actually a wheelchair he's in just a slightly larger than normal Maclaren buggy for bigger kids.

Altough he's entitled to a disabled persons pass we haven't got him one yet due not really needing one thus far on local transport though we will certainly be getting him one before his 5th birthday.

Thanks for the advice about emailing FTPE I'll do that and report back what they say.

 

[OMGitsDAVE]

The children under 5 rule means that they will have to sit on a parent/guardians knee throughout the journey, as they dont want them to take an extra seat.

 

[yorkie]

What service are you getting? Do you have a Family Railcard, and were the tickets advance purchase or walk-on ?

 

[Merseyrail]

The children under 5 rule means that they will have to sit on a parent/guardians knee throughout the journey, as they dont want them to take an extra seat.

There's no chance of that. He's far too big to sit on anyones knee, his legs wouldn't fit underneath the table and he'd be constantly getting up and trying to run off! OK for a one or two year old but he's 4 1/2yrs. At least with his own seat he'd probably fall asleep.

What service are you getting? Do you have a Family Railcard, and were the tickets advance purchase or walk-on ?

We're getting the 11:22am from Liverpool to Scarborough on 28/08/09 and returning on the 19:47 Scarborough to Liverpool on 04/09/09. How busy do you think these will be?

The tickets we booked were online Advance Singles with disconts for a family railcard. I'm buying the family railcard on Friday using the half price Daily Mail offer.

 

[martyn29]

you could buy a ticket for him on the family railcard then he will be entitled to a seat.

 

[thelem]

Technically the tickets won't be valid, as you should have had the railcard when you purchased the tickets (as I found out after looking into railcard terms when I was fined something like 3 times my ticket cost for an expired railcard a few months ago).

 

[ChrisTheRef]

Technically the tickets won't be valid, as you should have had the railcard when you purchased the tickets (as I found out after looking into railcard terms when I was fined something like 3 times my ticket cost for an expired railcard a few months ago).

The guard has far too little to do if you get pulled for that. You shouldn't have any problems.
A Merseyrail RPI once tried to issue me a penalty fare because I hadn't signed the little bit you have to sign on a railcard

 

[yorkie]

There's no chance of that. He's far too big to sit on anyones knee, his legs wouldn't fit underneath the table and he'd be constantly getting up and trying to run off! OK for a one or two year old but he's 4 1/2yrs. At least with his own seat he'd probably fall asleep.

The person who sold the ticket should have given you the option of purchasing a ticket for him. He needs a ticket basically. Perhaps the rules should be changed to Under 3s go free or something as I agree that a 4 year old on your lap all that way may not be a good idea.

We're getting the 11:22am from Liverpool to Scarborough on 28/08/09 and returning on the 19:47 Scarborough to Liverpool on 04/09/09. How busy do you think these will be?

Not too busy, you may only need him on your lap between York and Malton and Scarborough and York, as that may be the busiest bit at those times.

The tickets we booked were online Advance Singles with disconts for a family railcard. I'm buying the family railcard on Friday using the half price Daily Mail offer.

Go to the station and explain the situation and ask if they can issue an additional ticket, they may be able to do so! The cost of a CHFAM discounted Advance ticket must be very low so really it's not worth the hassle of having him on your lap when you can get him a seat at a decent price! I'm not sure if they can officially retrospectively sell 1 CHFAM ticket on it's own to go with the others but it's worth a try.

Technically the tickets won't be valid, as you should have had the railcard when you purchased the tickets (as I found out after looking into railcard terms when I was fined something like 3 times my ticket cost for an expired railcard a few months ago).

Nowhere does it state this when buying online and it is totally unenforceable if it is a rule!

In the unlikely event of a guard making that claim, you'd just claim that you had a railcard previously and it ran out and this is the replacement. The jobsworth could not counter-claim that so would move on to pick on someone else. The chances of experiencing someone of that jobsworthiness on TPE are probably about zero I'd have thought!! Most guards on TPE are fine in my experience!

A Merseyrail RPI once tried to issue me a penalty fare because I hadn't signed the little bit you have to sign on a railcard

How ridiculous!

My only experience of an RPI on Merseyrail was showing him a rover, to which he said "is that a ticket, like?" I said yes and that was that!

 

[First class]

The railcard is not valid unless signed- therefore a penalty fare could technically, (but harshly) be issued. You have to agree to the terms and conditions. By not signing, you are not agreeing to comply with the railcards terms.

 

[tony_mac]

So that means, by not signing it, you can get a full refund if you don't agree to the terms.

 

[merlodlliw]

The railcard is not valid unless signed- therefore a penalty fare could technically, (but harshly) be issued. You have to agree to the terms and conditions. By not signing, you are not agreeing to comply with the railcards terms.

I was once reminded I had not signed a card,the guard was,well 50/50
so I signed it M Mouse, not a word after that.

It always amazed me that you could buy an older persons card on the phone
without any ID, at the station you had to produce evidence of age.
nough said