Rioting students

[Eng274]

I would like to know how they work out the majority of their costs. The only verifiable numbers I've seen on there are our direct contributions to the EU which amount to around £14bn. When you actually take account of money we receive back our net spend on the EU is less than £5bn.

Generally however that website screams bias rather than fact.
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Have to say I agree with you here mumrar. I would love to know how my fellow students afford to go out 2-3 times a week, get every gadget under the sun (iPhone/iPod/Blackberry etc) as well as fancy clothes. Because on my budget there is no way in hell I can afford to do or buy things like that! The only expensive electronic thing I have (laptop) I saved a whole year to buy, my phone cost £30 and my MP3 is about 4 years old and only cost £12 at the time!

Where do they get the money for this and yet at the same time have the cheek to complain that fees are going up?

I wish I had as much money to throw around! Being a student myself and renting my own flat, I naturally have less to spend on such gadgets (I prefer renting on my own - when flatsharing, my sanity was severely tested!!)

That said, it's not a huge issue to me; my mobile phone doubles as my MP3 player, my desktop PC is now 5 years old and is still fine. And I generally shop for clothes at normal places; Burton, Topman etc, where they occasionally have BOGOF on £25 jeans

 

[GB]

Surely if someone wants to further their education, then we should give the all the help they need?

Depends what it is they are studying in my opinion.

Please tell me you're not the sort of people who think their road should be gritted because they pay more council tax than someone in another street...

Quite frankly I count myself lucky if any roads in this area get gritted.

You could also use the same argument that people without children are paying for someone else's child to go to school. Would you call this fair?

Depends how you look at things. Standard education is extremely important as it gives people the best chance possible to get a job when they leave. Someone that has had a poor education is less likely to find a job and more likely to find themselfs living on benifits which isnt good for anyone.

 

[jon0844]

Herts County Council have a set order of priority for roads which they now publish online, and you can check for updates via the website (by postcode) and even follow their 'Gritter Twitter'.

This must cost money to do, but was done presumably to counter the critics that equate their cul-de-sac not being gritted every day as the whole country not being done!

Our road is a bus route, but is sadly not a priority route (and buses will stop running when it gets bad) but I can't really complain as it's still a minor road. It means I stay at home or walk through the snow, just as people do abroad when it gets bad (they don't have everything cleared either, funnily enough).

But that's off topic - although sort of relevant with regards to what people expect to have their money spent on. Certainly, if my road was gritted every day during the snow, it would impact something else.

 

[Ferret]

Scotsman, I can't help but feel you've been sold the utter lie that University education is the only route to success.....

Am I wrong?

 

[Geezertronic]

Scotsman, I can't help but feel you've been sold the utter lie that University education is the only route to success.....

Am I wrong?

It certainly isn't in my case. I never went to University and it never did me any harm. Personally I think it is overrated but that's only because I never went.

 

[Ferret]

It certainly isn't in my case. I never went to University and it never did me any harm. Personally I think it is overrated but that's only because I never went.

Well, I think it depends on what course you study to be honest. But, there's always more than one way to skin a cat - and your route to a successful career does not have to include 3 years at University. Remember, there are only so many graduate jobs, and it is possible to work your way up a company without a degree.

I have to say, one side effect of Government policy on this could be that some people will think 'is my degree really worth it' - could help all concerned and stop people falling for the lie that you need a degree in anything, even thumb twiddling if you're going to make it in life.

 

[142094]

However, on the other hand there are a lot of jobs that require you to have a degree.

 

[Ferret]

However, on the other hand there are a lot of jobs that require you to have a degree.

Of course there are! I don't think anybody is denying that!

 

[scotsman]

Tell you what Scotsman, the NHS should stop paying for treatment for those with alcohol related illnesses/injures, smoking related illnesses/injuries, car accidents. Perhaps they should stop treating people in train crashes, or plane crashes. After all, going by train/plane, smoking, drinking, driving - they're all lifestyle choices.

That would be silly though wouldn't it...

Hence why the argument of we shouldn't use tax to support university education because it's a 'lifestyle choice' doesn't stand up!
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Scotsman, I can't help but feel you've been sold the utter lie that University education is the only route to success.....

Am I wrong?

I certainly don't think it's the be all and end all! Look at all the Drivers earning considerably more than £21k, I bet many of them haven't gone to University.

The fact is that when applying for a lot of jobs nowadays, an degree sets you above the rest because it shows your commitment. If we go for the two tier system, then it will effectively set ability to pay above ability to learn, screwing job prospects accordingly.

 

[GB]

But your counter arguement doesn't really work though does it? Yes smoking is a lifestyle choice but smokers pay tax and yes drinking is a lifestyle choice but drinkers pay tax. Cars can be argued they are a choice but for alot of people they are a neccesity but even so car drivers pay tax, fuel duty and insurance. In short, they all help in someway to pay what they use...and then there are NI contributions.

I don't think its too much to ask that if you use a service and benifit from it that you help pay it back. Students aren't being asked to pay back the full amount it costs to put them through uni but are merely being asked for them to contribute once they reach a certain income.

an degree sets you above the rest

Not if every Tom Dick and Harry has one it doesn't

 

[Ferret]

I certainly don't think it's the be all and end all! Look at all the Drivers earning considerably more than £21k, I bet many of them haven't gone to University.

The fact is that when applying for a lot of jobs nowadays, an degree sets you above the rest because it shows your commitment. If we go for the two tier system, then it will effectively set ability to pay above ability to learn, screwing job prospects accordingly.

Well, it depends what the degree is..... Arse-wiggling isn't really all that impressive!

I also seem to recall reading a rant from a leading businessman in recent times along the lines of 'amazing how many degree-holders can't even spell - just what do they teach in Universities?'.

 

[scotsman]

I don't think its too much to ask that if you use a service and benifit from it that you help pay it back. Students aren't being asked to pay back the full amount it costs to put them through uni but are merely being asked for them to contribute once they reach a certain income.

Operations on the NHS are free, you are not asked to pay anything back above tax. Education has the same idea. If you go to uni and do well in life - you will pay a higher rate of tax.

Not if every Tom Dick and Harry has one it doesn't

But they won't! There's still going to be entrance requirements and limits on numbers of students. There needs to be some common sense from employers, how many people will employ someone on the basis of a Creative Dance degree outside of the entertainment industry, all it shows is commitment on their part. It doesn't mean that they will get every job going.

 

[Ferret]

Scotsman, do you not think there are other ways of showing commitment than getting a degree?

 

[scotsman]

Scotsman, do you not think there are other ways of showing commitment than getting a degree?

Indeed, but it's what employers are actually looking for! (That or experience, but given that work's hard to come by when employers are only after people with experience and you haven't got a job...)

No doubt my stuff on the Strathspey and the Railtours would count a fair bit for commitment, but it won't help me get a job as journalist writing about politics!

I'd add that getting a degree shows that you are capable of puting hard work in (many other things do) and that you do have the relevant qualifications for the job!

 

[Ferret]

Indeed, but it's what employers are actually looking for! (That or experience, but given that work's hard to come by when employers are only after people with experience and you haven't got a job...)

I'd add the word 'some' in there Scotsman. Some employers are indeed looking for a relevant degree. Others couldn't actually care whether you have a degree or not!

No doubt my stuff on the Strathspey and the Railtours would count a fair bit for commitment, but it won't help me get a job as journalist writing about politics!

I'd add that getting a degree shows that you are capable of puting hard work in (many other things do) and that you do have the relevant qualifications for the job!

But there are many well paid jobs that don't need a degree, but may need other forms of training......

 

[scotsman]

But there are many well paid jobs that don't need a degree, but may need other forms of training......

Quite, it just happens that University education tends to be the most expensive of all the forms the state provides. The fact is, some jobs require a University degree, sometimes more than one. And I'd prefer to live in a society where money shouldn't dictate where you go in life. The upper class background Doctor won't be left out of pocket by getting a degree (I'm talking interest payments here) and neither should the Doctor from a working class background.

 

[Ferret]

Quite, it just happens that University education tends to be the most expensive of all the forms the state provides. The fact is, some jobs require a University degree, sometimes more than one. And I'd prefer to live in a society where money shouldn't dictate where you go in life. The upper class background Doctor won't be left out of pocket by getting a degree (I'm talking interest payments here) and neither should the Doctor from a working class background.

Alas, we'll never eradicate that element from life.

 

[142094]

Of course there are! I don't think anybody is denying that!

Good, so does that mean that you accept that some people who have aspirations to have a career that requires a degree, will be put off due to the rise in tuition fees, and that a large amount of these people will be from poorer backgrounds? Plus the fact is that not all jobs that require degrees pay well, so this will mean even more debt to pay off.

I also seem to recall reading a rant from a leading businessman in recent times along the lines of 'amazing how many degree-holders can't even spell - just what do they teach in Universities?'.

But at the same time we hear that people who leave school after GCSEs can't read and write properly, and lack basic mathematic skills. This is from the same group of businessmen. Plus I wouldn't take what businessmen say as gospel - look at Alan Sugar, his grammar is terrible.

People are also forgetting that universities provide a huge amount of jobs, sometimes being the biggest employer in towns and cities, have huge value for research and bring in foreign investment. Many are effectively self-sufficient, York being one which gets a lot of its income from research and conferencing rather than tuition fees and government support.

 

[4SRKT]

I can't believe there are still people who are so neanderthal that they can't see that providing university level education to a proportion of the population is not just economically necessary, but actually part of being a civilised nation.

I'm not talking about 'media studies' or 'golf studies' or whatever other nonsense the Daily Mail likes to come out with here, but who on Earth really thinks that the country can do without educated people in the long run? The level of disrespect for education and educated people in this country should be a national disgrace. Instead all we are treated to is [university educated - with grants] politicians uttering such populist nonsense as 'why should my constituents have to pay for the education of these people?'.

I'll tell you why. Because a nation like Britain that places no value on education, and which actively financially penalises those who seek to obtain such, will not for any length of time be able to provide any future for these 'salt-of-the-Earth' binmen or labourers or whatever. It is essential that any country has a well educated core (call it an 'elite' if you want to play silly semantic games) and it's inevitable that these should be drawn from the brightest in the population. That petty jealousy of those who go to University is being allowed to take over as a national sentiment is actually more frightening than it is depressing.

Not only should tuition fees not be increased, but they should be abolished. As should loans which should be replaced by the grants that all the hypocrital politicians who benefitted from these themselves had. University intake should be slashed to a much lower percentage of the population to pay for this. Nowadays you need a degree to get a job that when I left school A Levels would have been sufficient for. Or in my parents' generation O Levels. Universities have become an industry which is inflating the qualification requirement and driving up cost. Start the cuts in the pointless Universities and plough the money into quality education for the minority of people who are NEEDED for the future development of the economic and cultural life of the country. In short, go back to the '70s, where a country ostensibly poorer could afford to educate its citizens properly.

 

[Greenback]

I quite agree. Many people are approaching the problem of financing higher education from the wrong angle. The cost is only rising so sharply because of the rising numbers of people that the government wants to go to university to disguise the true levels of unemployment.

 

[Nevasleep]

Majority of degrees could also be cut to two years or less.

 

[Greenback]

I am also in favour of that! On many degree courses, there seems to be ample opportunity to condense the course.

 

[LE Greys]

I quite agree. Many people are approaching the problem of financing higher education from the wrong angle. The cost is only rising so sharply because of the rising numbers of people that the government wants to go to university to disguise the true levels of unemployment.

As do I. This devalues the status of a degree, making it much harder for the excessive number of graduates to find jobs when they leave university. It would be far better to control the numbers and provide alternative paths to qualifications, leading to other careers. That's what polytechnics used to be for. Bring them back.

 

[Nevasleep]

Also taxpayers pay towards 16-18yo apprenticeships.

 

[jon0844]

Also taxpayers pay towards 16-18yo apprenticeships.

I don't have a problem with subsidising training on the job, as it means someone is working and you're not paying the equivalent in benefits.

We should encourage more apprenticeship schemes, and make this a good alternative to going to University for certain trades.

 

[Greenback]

Hear, hear! We need to go back to proper apprenticeships for all sorts of trades and skills. The idea that a certain percentage of people are able to go to univeristy and have the aptitude for what should be challenging and academically focussed courses, is worng.

 

[yorksrob]

I can't believe there are still people who are so neanderthal that they can't see that providing university level education to a proportion of the population is not just economically necessary, but actually part of being a civilised nation.

I'm not talking about 'media studies' or 'golf studies' or whatever other nonsense the Daily Mail likes to come out with here, but who on Earth really thinks that the country can do without educated people in the long run? The level of disrespect for education and educated people in this country should be a national disgrace. Instead all we are treated to is [university educated - with grants] politicians uttering such populist nonsense as 'why should my constituents have to pay for the education of these people?'.

I'll tell you why. Because a nation like Britain that places no value on education, and which actively financially penalises those who seek to obtain such, will not for any length of time be able to provide any future for these 'salt-of-the-Earth' binmen or labourers or whatever. It is essential that any country has a well educated core (call it an 'elite' if you want to play silly semantic games) and it's inevitable that these should be drawn from the brightest in the population. That petty jealousy of those who go to University is being allowed to take over as a national sentiment is actually more frightening than it is depressing.

Not only should tuition fees not be increased, but they should be abolished. As should loans which should be replaced by the grants that all the hypocrital politicians who benefitted from these themselves had. University intake should be slashed to a much lower percentage of the population to pay for this. Nowadays you need a degree to get a job that when I left school A Levels would have been sufficient for. Or in my parents' generation O Levels. Universities have become an industry which is inflating the qualification requirement and driving up cost. Start the cuts in the pointless Universities and plough the money into quality education for the minority of people who are NEEDED for the future development of the economic and cultural life of the country. In short, go back to the '70s, where a country ostensibly poorer could afford to educate its citizens properly.

Hear hear. Absolutely right.

 

[TrainBrain185]

I can't believe there are still people who are so neanderthal that they can't see that providing university level education to a proportion of the population is not just economically necessary, but actually part of being a civilised nation.

I'm not talking about 'media studies' or 'golf studies' or whatever other nonsense the Daily Mail likes to come out with here, but who on Earth really thinks that the country can do without educated people in the long run? The level of disrespect for education and educated people in this country should be a national disgrace. Instead all we are treated to is [university educated - with grants] politicians uttering such populist nonsense as 'why should my constituents have to pay for the education of these people?'.

I'll tell you why. Because a nation like Britain that places no value on education, and which actively financially penalises those who seek to obtain such, will not for any length of time be able to provide any future for these 'salt-of-the-Earth' binmen or labourers or whatever. It is essential that any country has a well educated core (call it an 'elite' if you want to play silly semantic games) and it's inevitable that these should be drawn from the brightest in the population. That petty jealousy of those who go to University is being allowed to take over as a national sentiment is actually more frightening than it is depressing.

Not only should tuition fees not be increased, but they should be abolished. As should loans which should be replaced by the grants that all the hypocrital politicians who benefitted from these themselves had. University intake should be slashed to a much lower percentage of the population to pay for this. Nowadays you need a degree to get a job that when I left school A Levels would have been sufficient for. Or in my parents' generation O Levels. Universities have become an industry which is inflating the qualification requirement and driving up cost. Start the cuts in the pointless Universities and plough the money into quality education for the minority of people who are NEEDED for the future development of the economic and cultural life of the country. In short, go back to the '70s, where a country ostensibly poorer could afford to educate its citizens properly.

Well, these days, Provincial City Universities are just a posh word for Technical Colleges. The only Universities that are worthy to be called Universities are the originals like the Oxfords and Cambridges and similar thereof. Students are getting turned out of these so called Universities like cannon fodder each year with very few getting a job that relates to their qualifications, with many so far in debt with Student Loans I could not sleep at night if it were me.
What today's so called Graduates lose out on is "life experiences", "hands on" experience in the workplace. Grads remain closetted in their own little classroom world (when they are there) and are missing out on vital hands on practical aspects of jobs.
Furthermore, I cannot understand how these "masses" of young people even get into University? They need to read, write and spell correctly before even going there!! A recent photograph in the Daily Mirror, no, not the Mail, pictured a prospective Student wannabee spelling "AFFECCT" for AFFECT!!
The mind boggles. Keep Universities for the High Flyer's only please, not riff-raff wanting freebees from our already burdened Tax Payer for free or cut price Uni Fees on these somewhat modern day worthless Graduations. If what I see on the TV News and Newspaper reports of the calibre of these young people, I despair for what the future holds.........

 

[4SRKT]

I blame the universities themselves TBH. They have a vested interest (their own continued existence) in tuition fees, and have become the educational equivalent of the greedy Irish bankers and landowners in that country's financial crash. Essentially they are transferring large quantities of the future earnings of today's hopeful students into their own coffers today, perpetuating (without attempting to justify) their own existence.

As a society, do we really want a university sector that actually damages the prospects of young people by (i) devaluing qualifications, and (ii) mortgaging their (and our) future? The young people themselves have no say in this: to opt out of university today would be like opting out of A Levels in my day: that is personal economic suicide. They quite literally have no choice but to burden themselves in this way for outcomes my generation could have had without a degree. That the government colludes in this is a scandal, that we will sadly have to wait half a generation to see the appalling consequences of. People like Vince Cable are either duplicitous or very stupid.

And yes, of course, the young people are very, very angry. And when people get very, very angry things get broken. That's just the way it is folks, and in history no injustice has ever been removed by so-called 'peaceful protest' (hah!). Watch this space.

 

[TrainBrain185]

I blame the universities themselves TBH. They have a vested interest (their own continued existence) in tuition fees, and have become the educational equivalent of Irish bankers and landowners in that country's financial crash. Essentially they are transferring large quantities of the future earnings of today's hopeful students into their own coffers today, perpetuating (without attempting to justify) their own existence.

As a society, do we really want a university sector that actually damages the prospects of young people by (i) devaluing qualifications, and (ii) mortgaging their (and our) future? The young people themselves have no say in this: to opt out of university today would be like opting out of A Levels in my day: that is personal economic suicide. They quite literally have no choice but to burden themselves in this way for outcomes my generation could have had without a degree. That the government colludes in this is a scandal, that we will sadly have to wait half a generation to see the appalling consequences of. People like Vince Cable are either duplicitous or very stupid.

And yes, of course, the young people are very, very angry. And when people get very, very angry things get broken. That's just the way it is folks, and in history no injustice has ever been removed by so-called 'peaceful protest' (hah!). Watch this space.

I agree with those comments apart from your final paragraph. Violence is way beyond any excuse to make a point of view. I feel sorry for the unworthy comments pointed towards our Police Force who had to keep control of those idiots. Its fortunate that a certain Fire Extinguisher that was released from a great height did not kill anyone. Does that sum up the general mentality of todays "educated" society???