Ripped off by the railway - Nottingham to Crewe return

[exile]

I don't know about you, but I don't live in Germany and I have never used the German railway system. I suppose you will claim the German railway system has as many routeing possibilities as the comparatively cramped UK rail network? And therefore any possible problems that could be encountered have already been answered? Such as, I don't know, does a guard/RPI have to carry a set of mileage tables and a calculator around with them to check tickets?

1. Germany has twice as many stations as the UK and hence 4 times as many possible fares.

2. A computer can work out the shortest distance between 2 stations within a second.

(actually I don't favour a pure mileage based system but those don't sound like valid counter arguments)

 

[hairyhandedfool]

1. Germany has twice as many stations as the UK and hence 4 times as many possible fares....

Really? because I can think of atleast ten "reasonable" routes that are currently allowed from London to Manchester, nevermind London to Glasgow and I bet they don't all have the same mileage either! Like I say, I don't really know the way it all works in Germany, but just saying there are more stations doesn't mean there are more possibilities.

2. A computer can work out the shortest distance between 2 stations within a second.

Alright, I give you that, but even then having to check every fare takes time, more than it currently does.

 

[Deerfold]

2. A computer can work out the shortest distance between 2 stations within a second.

I didn't think the proposal was to charge by the shortest distance, but by the actual distance?

 

[NLC1072]

OK. Can you please propose an alternative system that would be fairer?

And have the people who proposed establishing a database of all possible splits (if that's even viable) checked how large the resultant database would be and whether current technology in use (including Avantix Traveller) would have sufficient storage? If not, have they budgeted for its replacement?

New fare stucture based on per mile... say 50p per mile on short journies and 30p per mile on intercity routes?

I know this would never happen, but it's fair as fares go.

 

[exile]

It's clear that the answer is to have a rational price structure which would mean that in most cases split ticketing wouldn't be necessary as A-B plus B-C would never be cheaper than A-C.

 

[SS4]

It's clear that the answer is to have a rational price structure which would mean that in most cases split ticketing wouldn't be necessary as A-B plus B-C would never be cheaper than A-C.

Easier said than done. Exactly how would one go about consistently applying this across the country?

With the current political situation it's not implausible to say that A-B and B-C fares will rise.

 

[Oscar]

I suppose you will claim the German railway system has as many routeing possibilities as the comparatively cramped UK rail network?

On longer distance journeys with multiple routeing options, German Normalpreis ("normal price") fares depend on the route you take. It's a lot more restrictive than our system as you can only use you the route you pay for (and I presume cheaper routes as well).

 

[Greenback]

It's clear that the answer is to have a rational price structure which would mean that in most cases split ticketing wouldn't be necessary as A-B plus B-C would never be cheaper than A-C.

The answer is clear, but how to achieve it is where you start hitting problems

 

[ainsworth74]

New fare stucture based on per mile... say 50p per mile on short journies and 30p per mile on intercity routes?

Okay could you then answer these three questions (something which no one who's proposed a per mile system has done as they've either total ignored it or evaded the questions ):

1) Please give me the proposed fares from York to Whitby for a day return, avoiding Darlington, and tell me how this fare is calculated and whether you think it will be competetive with the coach service provided by Coastliner that costs only slightly more than the current rail ticket price but offers a shorter journey time?

2) Please give me the proposed fares from York to London for a day return, and if this is lower than current prices, tell me where the revenue will be brought in to compensate EC for the revenue loss?

3) Please give me the proposed fares from Peterborough to Leicester, and also Leicester to Nottingham, and let me know how you are calculating the mileage and whether under your system it will be permitted to travel from Peterborough to Nottingham via Leicester or not, and if someone does go via Leicester what excess will be charged (if any)?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

It's clear that the answer is to have a rational price structure which would mean that in most cases split ticketing wouldn't be necessary as A-B plus B-C would never be cheaper than A-C.

What about cases in which spliting into 2 consecutive journeys costs more that a single A-C ticket?

Given that Rail Operators can help us all by offering fares which are appropriate to the markets in which they operate and the costs which they incurr, I must say that I would much rather have ideosycracies such as these if they assist in generating the revenue which the Companies require to operate services and stations.

Some of the objections to the current pricing seems to based on personal preferences whereas any adjustment to fares must surely prioritise those services which may only be available at present because of local market conditions and which provide useful local journey opportunities?

 

[All Line Rover]

Okay could you then answer these three questions (something which no one who's proposed a per mile system has done as they've either total ignored it or evaded the questions ):

I have come to the conclusion that if we did go down a purely mileage based ticketing system, we would have to accept the fact that the train would no longer be a viable option for certain journeys (it already isn't for some, such as Scarborough to Whitby!), and that routeing flexibility would have to be eliminated, with people being charged for the actual distance they travel. I suppose that such a system could be considered "fair," but for it to actually be "fair," higher fares on some routes would have to be balanced out by cheaper fares on other routes, with the overall financial benefit to government and TOC's being £0. If it isn't, the government and TOC's will simply be profiteering under the cover of further "simplification."

My main doubt about the viability of a mileage based system is the fact that, at present, fares on many lines are artificially low. The Severn Beach line, Wrexham to Shotton, and a number of routes in Northern England and Scotland, just to name a few. What will happen to these lines? Will the local authorities just sit by and happily accept the damage to the local economy caused by the higher fares, whilst the South-East of England benefits because of their artificially high fares being reduced*? Or will these local authorities want "custom" fares? In which case we go back to the ticketing system we have at present...

*Admittedly the high fares could be considered justified because of the heavy investment in that area of the UK, but such an excuse would be unlikely to work under a mileage based system.

 

[ModChod]

Firstly, Tesco were on Watchdog this week for advertising a price (e.g mayo @ £1.69) and charging a higher price (£1.99 in this case). Asda will be on Watchdog next week for similar things.

So imagine a scenario where the public does become angry with the split ticketing situation - Anne Robinson, Martin Lewis, and the Daily Mail all get on board and start demanding that the situation is resolved. Here is what I imagine will happen in a board room somewhere:

Bossman: We have to sort this split ticketing mess out, what can we do.
Assistant: As far as I can tell we have three options. We could spend millions on an IT system which works out the best split ticket for people and sells them that ticket.
Bossman: Millions? What else have you got?
Assistant: We could lower the prices of the full journey, so the splits don't work out cheaper. For example we could lower the price of the Nottingham - Crewe to £16.30, so it is no longer cheaper to split at Derby.
Bossman: Lower prices? Are you feeling ok? What is option 3?
Assistant: We could increase the prices of each leg of the split journey. So Nottingham - Derby could go up to £6.90 and Derby - Crewe could go up to £10.30. So now it is also no cheaper to split at Derby.
Bossman: I like it. Do it.

 

[Oscar]

but offers a shorter journey time

Incidentally, Coastliner bus journey times to/from Whitby have been creeping up over the years due to a longer diversion round Goathland, more waiting at Malton in the name of increased reliability and the apparent end end of the Summer late afternoon express return. The journey now normally takes around 02:20 from York Station to Whitby compared to 02:30-02:45 by train via Middlesbrough. The service has also been cut to three Monday - Saturday buses a day to/from Whitby outside of the peak May-September season. Coastliner has a through ticket agreement with National Rail and is advertised on York Station boards. I now feel however that the (at least) hourly bus from Scarborough provides a much better service and that through ticketing could be introduced for this service (but Scarborough trains are of course relatively expensive with regards to distance). Esk Valley trains could also capitalise if the York - Whitby (avoiding Darlington) fares were advertised more - most people in the area only really consider Coastliner I think. Sorry for going off topic but it's an interesting topic raised for another thread maybe and a issue for which competitive pricing is crucial despite huge disparity in route lengths.

 

[island]

Bossman: We have to sort this split ticketing mess out, what can we do.
Assistant: As far as I can tell we have three options. We could spend millions on an IT system which works out the best split ticket for people and sells them that ticket.
Bossman: Millions? What else have you got?
Assistant: We could lower the prices of the full journey, so the splits don't work out cheaper. For example we could lower the price of the Nottingham - Crewe to £16.30, so it is no longer cheaper to split at Derby.
Bossman: Lower prices? Are you feeling ok? What is option 3?
Assistant: We could increase the prices of each leg of the split journey. So Nottingham - Derby could go up to £6.90 and Derby - Crewe could go up to £10.30. So now it is also no cheaper to split at Derby.
Bossman: I like it. Do it.

Exactly.

 

[MarkyMarkD]

Firstly, Tesco were on Watchdog this week for advertising a price (e.g mayo @ £1.69) and charging a higher price (£1.99 in this case). Asda will be on Watchdog next week for similar things.

So imagine a scenario where the public does become angry with the split ticketing situation - Anne Robinson, Martin Lewis, and the Daily Mail all get on board and start demanding that the situation is resolved. Here is what I imagine will happen in a board room somewhere:

Bossman: We have to sort this split ticketing mess out, what can we do.
Assistant: As far as I can tell we have three options. We could spend millions on an IT system which works out the best split ticket for people and sells them that ticket.
Bossman: Millions? What else have you got?
Assistant: We could lower the prices of the full journey, so the splits don't work out cheaper. For example we could lower the price of the Nottingham - Crewe to £16.30, so it is no longer cheaper to split at Derby.
Bossman: Lower prices? Are you feeling ok? What is option 3?
Assistant: We could increase the prices of each leg of the split journey. So Nottingham - Derby could go up to £6.90 and Derby - Crewe could go up to £10.30. So now it is also no cheaper to split at Derby.
Bossman: I like it. Do it.

But, in many cases, they can't simply increase the split fares, for one of these reasons (or some others I haven't thought of):

(1) the split fares are subject to regulatory caps
(2) the split fares are subject to local competition with another TOC, perhaps one which has a fare restricted to its own services or which could introduce such a fare if it felt like it

The issue with peak/off-peak splits is even less likely to go away and I certainly can't think of a way to address this.

The DFT consultation on fares and ticketing is unhelpful in this regard (from the passenger's point of view) as it suggests smart cards are great and the answer to everything. Of course, smart cards are great from the TOCs' point of view as they completely prevent splitting at "unnecessary" split points (e.g. points where the customer would not normally need to change trains) other than by alighting from one train, "touching out", "touching in" and joining (probably) a later train. Certainly splitting on the same train will be very difficult other than in the rare circumstances where there is a long dwell time at a convenient splitting point (e.g. Edinburgh on through EC services).

 

[OwlMan]

Firstly, Tesco were on Watchdog this week for advertising a price (e.g mayo @ £1.69) and charging a higher price (£1.99 in this case). Asda will be on Watchdog next week for similar things.

So imagine a scenario where the public does become angry with the split ticketing situation - Anne Robinson, Martin Lewis, and the Daily Mail all get on board and start demanding that the situation is resolved. Here is what I imagine will happen in a board room somewhere:

Bossman: We have to sort this split ticketing mess out, what can we do.
Assistant: As far as I can tell we have three options. We could spend millions on an IT system which works out the best split ticket for people and sells them that ticket.
Bossman: Millions? What else have you got?
Assistant: We could lower the prices of the full journey, so the splits don't work out cheaper. For example we could lower the price of the Nottingham - Crewe to £16.30, so it is no longer cheaper to split at Derby.
Bossman: Lower prices? Are you feeling ok? What is option 3?
Assistant: We could increase the prices of each leg of the split journey. So Nottingham - Derby could go up to £6.90 and Derby - Crewe could go up to £10.30. So now it is also no cheaper to split at Derby.
Bossman: I like it. Do it.

And of course if the split tickets cost more than the complete journey they will not reduce the cost of the split tickets but increase the whole journey fare!

 

[HH]

1. Split ticketing has become such an issue because of different pricing regimes on different parts of the railway; for example longer journeys are priced as intercity (ie highly, and not usually regulated), whereas intermediate journeys are priced as a local service (not so high, and often regulated).

2. Reports have been produced, eg by ATOC, which have estimated this as a circa £200m p.a. problem. with the intercity TOCs most affected.

3. ATOC have requested DfT several times to allow changes to sort this out, but have always been refused.

4. Engines to work out best prices by split ticketing are under development, so the industry cannot continue to bury its head in the sand on this matter.

 

[yorkie]

But, in many cases, they can't simply increase the split fares, for one of these reasons (or some others I haven't thought of):

(1) the split fares are subject to regulatory caps

Sadly the most common way that "splitting" tickets makes journeys cheaper, by using CDRs (Off Peak Day Returns) is NOT regulated. So they could close off the most commonly used "split" opportunities easily :cry:

(2) the split fares are subject to local competition with another TOC, perhaps one which has a fare restricted to its own services or which could introduce such a fare if it felt like it

Yes, this is a good point.

The issue with peak/off-peak splits is even less likely to go away and I certainly can't think of a way to address this.

True.

The DFT consultation on fares and ticketing is unhelpful in this regard (from the passenger's point of view) as it suggests smart cards are great and the answer to everything. Of course, smart cards are great from the TOCs' point of view as they completely prevent splitting at "unnecessary" split points (e.g. points where the customer would not normally need to change trains) other than by alighting from one train, "touching out", "touching in" and joining (probably) a later train. Certainly splitting on the same train will be very difficult other than in the rare circumstances where there is a long dwell time at a convenient splitting point (e.g. Edinburgh on through EC services).

A nationwide PAYG scheme is unlikely to be feasible. We will get a 'worst of all worlds' smart card system where all we do is load an existing product onto a smart card. Therefore, I suspect you will still be able to load a string of CDRs onto one smart card and use that instead of the more expensive SVR for the through journey. So, generally speaking, smart cards shouldn't prevent "splitting".

But we must not be complacent. Smart cards are an opportunity for TOCs, and a danger to passengers, if they are designed in such a way that "splitting" is made difficult. We have to ensure that does not happen!

 

[MarkyMarkD]

The one good thing that could happen in a well-thought-out smart card system (even a PAYG system) is that individual journeys could be split between peak/off-peak at different stations.

I'm thinking of something like the way East Coast show on their timetables which meals one should expect (hope for!).

This would be particularly relevant to operators like XC - where splitting seems to be the most advantageous - because it would mean that only the sections of the route which were peak (say, sections going towards Bristol or Birmingham in the morning or away from them in the evening peaks) would be charged as peak whilst other sections would not.

This would then achieve one of the declared intentions of the fare review, which is to incentivise customers to travel on less busy trains. It might be that it was even financially worthwhile to stop travelling, en route, during a busy period (morning or evening peak, say) and rejoin the route after the peak has passed, in order to benefit from cheaper fares.

It's hard to see that anyone would consider that a bad development.

The fare review also talks quite a lot about how stupid it is that the morning peak typically starts at the first train, and runs through to (say) 0930 or so. Early morning trains are often very quiet indeed but there is no financial saving from catching them on many routes. (It would be nice to think that advances would work in these circumstances, but they don't always).

 

[Paul Kelly]

It might be that it was even financially worthwhile to stop travelling, en route, during a busy period (morning or evening peak, say) and rejoin the route after the peak has passed, in order to benefit from cheaper fares.

It already is, for example when travelling on CrossCountry split advances on a Friday afternoon - it can be quite financially advantageous to arrive somewhere just before 16:00 and stop off there until 18:30, when advances become available again. In my experience there often seems to be an advance quota blackout on services that arrive or depart between these times.

 

[calc7]

It already is, for example when travelling on CrossCountry split advances on a Friday afternoon - it can be quite financially advantageous to arrive somewhere just before 16:00 and stop off there until 18:30, when advances become available again. In my experience there often seems to be an advance quota blackout on services that arrive or depart between these times.

From your experience, is this specifically for "hotspots" such as Bristol Temple Meads, Birmingham New Street, Derby, Sheffield, Leeds, York, Manchester, Reading etc. or across the whole network?

 

[Paul Kelly]

My example was really from Birmingham; but then I generalised my comment above as I thought it applied everywhere between 16:00 and 18:30 on a Friday; certainly I remember checking there were no advances on services departing Derby before 18:30 heading north either. I might have jumped to conclusions in assuming it applied everywhere I suppose...

 

[Sparks169]

How far do we go to really define the cheapest available ticket if the simplest one isn't good enough? Just splits? Exploiting loopholes? Routeing Guide anomalies?

I feel that it's something best left to those doing their homework and confident enough to explain themselves if questioned. I say that because I worked as a ticket office clerk. I only ever offered to sell splits twice. One time, the passenger got stressed and angry because she just wanted one through ticket, even though what I was offering was a simple split along the line of route where every train stopped. The first already held a ticket which wasn't valid at the location I was at and offered her a ticket to the point of convergence. She exploded and demanded I gave her a ticket through to her destination, despite it being much more expensive. Ever since then, I vowed never to voluntarily offer them ever again and consequently never had any more bad experiences with customers.

What if the clerk offers a split to a trusting lay passenger and they have trouble on the train? Then what? It's best left to those who know what they're doing. It's good customer service to give the customer what they ask for without the risks associated with being creative.

Exactly the same here. I am a ticket office clerk.
Taking into account a few customers who quizzed me on not offering split tickets and deciding to try and make an example of me "not doing my job properly" in front of other customers at the station, I decided to try offering different split journeys to customers which worked out cheaper.

USUAL TRANSACTION:

Customer: "Can I have a return from A to F?"
Me: "Absolutely, thats £X.XX"
Customer: *pops card in the reader*
Me: "There we go!"
Customer: "Thank you very much!"

OFFERING CHEAPER SPLIT JOURNEYS:

Customer: "Can I have a return from A to F?"
Me: "Definately, if you want to go from A to B, then B to D, then D to F that will work out at £X.XX, alternatively if you want to go via E so A to B, then B to D, then D to E and finally E to F that will cost you £X.XX. Also if you want to...." *Customer Interrupts*
Customer: "Just give me the single ticket!"
Me: "Ok I'm sorry, I was just trying to save you money!"
Customer: "Just the single ticket please!"
Me: "Ok that's £X.XX"
Customer: "Thank you... finally"

Among a couple of other examples where the customer actually walked off!

Since then, I too do not even bother to offer split ticketing that I am aware of.

If a customer asks for a ticket, I will sell them the cheapest available TICKET appropriate to the journey they are wanting to make. If a customer asks me to find a cheaper alternative using a number of changes, I will look for the cheapest I can find.

The OP has stated they purchased a ticket they had asked for and is annoyed they were not offered split options or alternatives. But did you actually ask for such? And even so, would you be willing to explain yourself to the millions of commuters who have to queue for ages as they are each offered different splitting alternatives?

And as if TVM's are not complicated enough for alot of people, can you imagine an old lady having to use one and being faced with a mass of different split journeys, prices, restrictions etc? The system would be deemed even more complicated for customers than it is now!

 

[Deerfold]

4. Engines to work out best prices by split ticketing are under development, so the industry cannot continue to bury its head in the sand on this matter.

And if anyone actually comes up with one that can guarantee the cheapest fare for any UK journey (taking into account overdistance fares and overlapping tickets) and runs in a reasonable time, I'll probably propose them for a Nobel prize for maths

 

[All Line Rover]

And if anyone actually comes up with one that can guarantee the cheapest fare for any UK journey (taking into account overdistance fares and overlapping tickets) and runs in a reasonable time, I'll probably propose them for a Nobel prize for maths

It is impossible to "guarantee" that you can find the cheapest fare for a journey. Just your interpretation of the Routeing Guide may affect the result!

You can guarantee that certain tickets will save someone money on a journey, but you can't guarantee that they are the cheapest tickets for that journey.

 

[Deerfold]

It is impossible to "guarantee" that you can find the cheapest fare for a journey. Just your interpretation of the Routeing Guide may affect the result!

You can guarantee that certain tickets will save someone money on a journey, but you can't guarantee that they are the cheapest tickets for that journey.

Indeed - but HH was asserting that programs to do this are being developed.

 

[All Line Rover]

Indeed - but HH was asserting that programs to do this are being developed.

Programs to do what? To guarantee to find the cheapest fare for any journey in the UK? Impossible.

I am aware that programs are being developed. Programmes that can make finding a cheap fare much easier. But they will always require a measure of human reasoning to interpret the results.

 

[Deerfold]

Programs to do what? To guarantee to find the cheapest fare for any journey in the UK? Impossible.

I was basing this on use of the phrase "best price" rather than "better price"

I am aware that programs are being developed. Programmes that can make finding a cheap fare much easier. But they will always require a measure of human reasoning to interpret the results.

I'm quite in agreement.

 

[HH]

LOL. OK better price it is. Or should we say the best of a bunch of better prices (which may or may not include the cheapest possible fare).

 

[snail]

Firstly, Tesco were on Watchdog this week for advertising a price (e.g mayo @ £1.69) and charging a higher price (£1.99 in this case). Asda will be on Watchdog next week for similar things.

That's the opposite of split ticketing. Apples and oranges. Or ketchup and mayo.