Rishi Sunak and the Conservative Party.

[nlogax]

but it's the Labour party who are in actual office via the civil service. What might that suggest about the prospect of positive change from a Labour win.

Or is the civil service made up of mostly reasonable people from across the political spectrum who are just sick and tired of being forced to implement and deliver on increasingly infantile policies?

 

[WelshBluebird]

Alternatively, the opposition could offer something worth voting for, and be led by people who aren't more of the same...

I think it is prety clear that Labour aren't the same as the Tories right now. Yes Starmer is more to the right of the party than what I (and many others) would like, but to say they are the same means ignoring the rightwards steps the Tories have made in recent years.

but it's the Labour party who are in actual office via the civil service

What on earth are you talking about?

 

[Senex]

It's not mid-term now, it's late term; the next election is around a year away at most. We are basically starting the run-up to the next election now.

The Tories recovered after Major got in and Labour did not have a big lead in 1991, in fact the Tories were often ahead: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_..._election#/media/File:1992_election_polls.png

There is no John Major figure waiting to rescue them this time.

The Tories have to appeal to the middle to win any election. They are patently not, thus even though Starmer is no great personality, the Tories will not win. They are turning off the middle; we have a clear choice between hard-right and middle-of-the-road-and-a-little-bland. In such a situation, the latter will surely win.

Do you really honestly think there will be a small Tory majority? I haven't heard a single commentator suggest such a thing.

It could surely still happen if the anti-Tory vote is split between Labour and LibDem, which it well could be if the LibDems put up a strong campaign and Labour doesn't manage to seem a little more inspiring. To be sure of getting the Tories out there needs to be at least some sort of unofficial pact between the other two main parties. But will consider that their own party purity is more important than getting the Tories out? I fear that's a strong possibility.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Alternatively, the opposition could offer something worth voting for, and be led by people who aren't more of the same.. exactly this



No point in running an election just for the sake of redecorating the government website in different colors without there being any meaningful change behind it

 

[jfollows]

Stories now (for example, https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...sidering-quitting-over-rishi-sunak-hs2-u-turn) that Andy Street is threatening to quit the Conservative party and may do so at the end of Rishi's speech today.
Note that he's not quitting as mayor so he'll be "independent" rather than "Conservative" if he does.
I hope that he does resign, he'll show that he has "some" integrity by doing so. I accept that the merits of HS2 have always been mixed and some people have good reasons to be against it, but what's presumably about to happen today is probably the worst of all possible outcomes.

Tory mayor Andy Street ‘considering quitting’ over Rishi Sunak HS2 U-turn​

West Midlands mayor was hoping for last-minute reprieve for northern leg of high-speed line, say sources
Kiran Stacey Political correspondent
Wed 4 Oct 2023 09.25 BST

The Conservative mayor for the West Midlands is considering quitting over Rishi Sunak’s decision to cancel the high-speed train line between Birmingham and Manchester, the Guardian has learned.
Andy Street has met the prime minister on multiple occasions over the last few days as he pushed for a last-minute reprieve for the northern leg of HS2, according to Conservative sources.

However, it became clear on Wednesday morning that his lobbying effort had failed, as Grant Shapps, the defence secretary, confirmed the line from Birmingham to Manchester would be upgraded, but not enough to count as high speed.
A resignation by a Conservative figure with as high a profile as Street would be likely to overshadow the prime minister’s keynote speech on Wednesday and would undermine his argument that he is taking decisions for the long-term good of the country.
A source close to Street said: “He is very disappointed. He wants to see what today brings but it is certainly possible that he will resign immediately after the prime minister’s speech.”
A spokesperson for the mayor said: “We intend to listen to the prime minister’s speech and respond accordingly.”
Sunak will address Conservative members at the Manchester Central conference venue – a former train station – later on Wednesday. In his speech he will argue that voters have become exhausted with a broken system of Westminster politics and will announce a series of new policies as he looks to position himself as the “change” candidate ahead of the next election.
Much of the conference has been dominated by uncertainty over the multibillion-pound HS2 scheme, which the prime minister has been reviewing for weeks.
As details emerged earlier in the week about the changes Sunak intends to make to the scheme, including abandoning plans for a high-speed link north of Birmingham, Street launched a public campaign to save the plans. He warned that giving up on the scheme would amount to “cancelling the future”.
Street has met the prime minister more than once in the last two weeks as he pushed to save the scheme, including persuading some of the project’s largest contractors to offer to slash their own costs. The mayor said on Tuesday: “The prime minister and I spoke last week about the difficulty, and I understand his difficulty and I said I would help him find a solution.”
Downing Street did not respond to a request to comment.

 

[brad465]

Amazing clown show of a conference. What a total mess.

They already talk like they are in opposition.

It can be argued some of the speeches/behaviour was pitching to be the next leader after the election, particularly Braverman and Truss (the latter's fringe talk seemed to be more popular than any of the speeches actual ministers were making that day.

 

[ainsworth74]

Anyway. The Tories might win an election, but it's the Labour party who are in actual office via the civil service. What might that suggest about the prospect of positive change from a Labour win.

You are a Government Minister and I claim my £10!

 

[jon0844]

You are a Government Minister and I claim my £10!

It's probably a meme on X or something. Any crazy conspiracy theory can be posted there and the £8/m brigade will be liking and sharing.

 

[nlogax]

Stories now (for example, https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...sidering-quitting-over-rishi-sunak-hs2-u-turn) that Andy Street is threatening to quit the Conservative party and may do so at the end of Rishi's speech today.
Note that he's not quitting as mayor so he'll be "independent" rather than "Conservative" if he does.
I hope that he does resign, he'll show that he has "some" integrity by doing so.

In the grand scheme of things I don't see this making much difference in the West Midlands. Listening to a recent episode of Leading with an interview of Andy Street and Andy Burnham it was pretty evident that national party politics play little part in the context of the role of regional mayors. Resigning from the party would be more of a gesture, a middle finger to Sunak and co.

Andy Burnham and Andy Street: A Tale of Two Cities
What is it like to run a metropolitan area? How does devolution impact the citizens of regional areas? Does party affiliation affect the decisions a mayor makes? Andy Burnham, Labour Mayor of Greater Manchester, and Andy Street, Conservative Mayor of the West Midlands, meet with Rory and Alastair to discuss their two cities, their contrasting politics, and working towards their shared goal of further devolved powers for city regions.

 

[gg1]

It can be argued some of the speeches/behaviour was pitching to be the next leader after the election, particularly Braverman and Truss (the latter's fringe talk seemed to be more popular than any of the speeches actual ministers were making that day.

Some is an understatement, I'd say most of them. If not aiming for leadership themselves (eg Hunt who realistically will never win a leadership election) they're at least speaking with the aim of ensuring they will be in the running for a senior shadow cabinet post when the next leader is chosen, almost certainly from the right of the party.

The key takeaway from the conference for me is the Tory party have privately given up any hope of winning the next election and this is all about what happens next.

 

[edwin_m]

Alternatively, the opposition could offer something worth voting for, and be led by people who aren't more of the same.. exactly this



No point in running an election just for the sake of redecorating the government website in different colors without there being any meaningful change behind it

And risk what happened in 2019, when the Tory option looked pretty grim but enough people thought Corbyn would be worse?

 

[DarloRich]

Anyway. The Tories might win an election, but it's the Labour party who are in actual office via the civil service. What might that suggest about the prospect of positive change from a Labour win

What are you talking about? Step away from the GBeebies..........

( the fairly senior civil servants I know are not Labour types. They are old school tie c/Conservative people)

Alternatively, the opposition could offer something worth voting for, and be led by people who aren't more of the same...

Alternatively, the opposition could offer something worth voting for, and be led by people who aren't more of the same.. exactly this

No point in running an election just for the sake of redecorating the government website in different colors without there being any meaningful change behind it

They do - the problem is the Tories pinch it. See thier rip of Lisa Nandy and her towns policy.....................

 

[Blindtraveler]

And risk what happened in 2019, when the Tory option looked pretty grim but enough people thought Corbyn would be worse?

That's a risk I'm quite happy to take

The status quo is currently better than the alternative,

This coming from someone who's natural voting behavior is liberal democrat

 

[brad465]

Alternatively, the opposition could offer something worth voting for, and be led by people who aren't more of the same.. exactly this

No point in running an election just for the sake of redecorating the government website in different colors without there being any meaningful change behind it

Meaningful change will not happen under a FPTP system, unless all the swing voters want it (and want the same type of change).

 

[nw1]

Alternatively, the opposition could offer something worth voting for, and be led by people who aren't more of the same...

Except is Keir Starmer ranting on about liberals, the "woke", and people who support immigration? Is there anyone as extreme as Braverman on Labour's front bench?

Labour are absolutely not more of the same. Even someone like Cameron would be a considerable improvement on now, and at the time I was most definitely not a fan. We need, as a first step, to have a typical pre-Johnson government back in. They had their problems, but all were considerably better than anything since 2019 and particularly the horror show of a government we've endured since early September 2022. (Yes, Johnson was less bad than anything since!)

Anyway. The Tories might win an election, but it's the Labour party who are in actual office via the civil service. What might that suggest about the prospect of positive change from a Labour win.

The civil service is, I think, relatively benign compared to the government.

 

[DarloRich]

The status quo is currently better than the alternative,

really? The status quo of an increasingly bonkers, authoritarian, further right and populist Tory party is better than change?

Really? You listen to these clowns and think: Yep, they are guys for me? Really?

 

[nw1]

That's a risk I'm quite happy to take

The status quo is currently better than the alternative,

This coming from someone who's natural voting behavior is liberal democrat

In what way are the current lot better than the alternative for a Lib Dem voter?

Is hard-right really better than middle-of-the-road centrist (my assessment of Labour, they aren't really socialist as such).

really? The status quo of an increasingly bonkers, authoritarian, further right and populist Tory party is better than change?

Really? You listen to these clowns and think: Yep, they are guys for me? Really?

Why is there not a "like" button on here?

 

[Blindtraveler]

I don't like change unless it's meaningful, what you effectively get with the current manifestation of labor and it's senior management is Tory light, nothing much will alter other than the state of public finances which will dip into the red, we only have to look at any labour run Council as to how quickly they seem to manage this at the moment and it wouldn't surprise me if we got tax cuts as well to appease the many


They can't answer any question on how they tackle some of the big issues currently and I just don't feel that I can trust them at this exact moment in time, which is sad because I absolutely agree that the current administration are far from brilliant but I still say better the devil You know

 

[nw1]

I don't like change unless it's meaningful, what you effectively get with the current manifestation of labor and it's senior management is Tory light, nothing much will alter other than the state of public finances which will dip into the red, we only have to look at any labour run Council as to how quickly they seem to manage this at the moment and it wouldn't surprise me if we got tax cuts as well to appease the many


They can't answer any question on how they tackle some of the big issues currently and I just don't feel that I can trust them at this exact moment in time, which is sad because I absolutely agree that the current administration are far from brilliant but I still say better the devil You know

Even if the devil you know is arguably the most right-wing administration since WWII, are alienating large sections of the population and include a home secretary who seems to have an almost fanatical dislike of some of us?

The current government seem to stand for two things:

a) culture wars on liberals and the "woke" and
b) penny-pinching cost-cutting.

I'm not saying Labour will be perfect, but at least policy a) will stop. That alone will be a big improvement.

 

[DarloRich]

we only have to look at any labour run Council as to how quickly they seem to manage this at the moment and it wouldn't surprise me if we got tax cuts as well to appease the many

Northampton council went pop. Tory run.
Thurrock went pop. Tory run.
It isn't the colour of the council causing these failures

They can't answer any question on how they tackle some of the big issues currently and I just don't feel that I can trust them at this exact moment in time, which is sad because I absolutely agree that the current administration are far from brilliant but I still say better the devil You know

And by extension we must assume you are happy with the answers offered up by the current government to the problems of the day! To repeat you look at this clown show, listen to thier increasingly extreme rhetoric and think: yep, they are the guys for me?

I don't get that. Honestly. The current clown show don't stand for any of the former Tory values.

PS - you say you don't trust Starmer so therefore we must assume you DO trust Sunak. A man who couldn't lie straight in bed, doesn't seem to have a great memory when it comes to tax or nationality status versus someone who used to run the CPS, is a KC ( and thus a registered and regulated legal professional) and someone who seems like a decent ,if a bit dull, man.

 

[nlogax]

but I still say better the devil You know

The devil you know will drive this country into the dust.

 

[birchesgreen]

I don't think Labour will "dip" the public finances into the red, that ship sailed a long time ago.

 

[nw1]

I don't think Labour will "dip" the public finances into the red, that ship sailed a long time ago.

The Tories have shown they aren't that bothered about balancing the books when it suits them. Granted they are being particularly "tight" at the moment (NHS in a terrible state, railways being deprived of funding, possible northern HS2 cancellation all symptoms of that), but it hasn't always been that way recently. Remember they implemented that-which-shall-not-be-mentioned on the 31st day of 2020. I don't want to derail things with a discussion about the rights and wrongs of that, but suffice to say, it was a big financial risk and a financially-prudent government would not have gone down that road.

 

[najaB]

I don't like change unless it's meaningful, what you effectively get with the current manifestation of labor and it's senior management is Tory light, nothing much will alter other than the state of public finances which will dip into the red, we only have to look at any labour run Council as to how quickly they seem to manage this at the moment and it wouldn't surprise me if we got tax cuts as well to appease the many

So no point stopping taking heroin if you're just going to replace it with alcohol?

 

[birchesgreen]

The Tories have shown they aren't that bothered about balancing the books when it suits them.

Yes though of course if Labour does the same then the sky falls in.

 

[baz962]

It could surely still happen if the anti-Tory vote is split between Labour and LibDem, which it well could be if the LibDems put up a strong campaign and Labour doesn't manage to seem a little more inspiring. To be sure of getting the Tories out there needs to be at least some sort of unofficial pact between the other two main parties. But will consider that their own party purity is more important than getting the Tories out? I fear that's a strong possibility.

Here in Beds we are coming up to the by election. So far only Labour has knocked on my door. Still unsure who to vote for out of Labour and Lib Dems to not split the vote.

 

[Gloster]

Indeed. Being anti-ULEZ means you are pro kids breathing dirty air. It really isn't a winning proposition.

Yes, but if it isn’t your kids, do you care? I suspect that much of the noisiest opposition comes from areas well clear of the air-pollution black spots. It more likely to be poor people suffering the effects of poor air and they are less likely to be the worse polluters (broad brush, I know).

 

[nw1]

So no point stopping taking heroin if you're just going to replace it with alcohol?

Good one.

It could surely still happen if the anti-Tory vote is split between Labour and LibDem, which it well could be if the LibDems put up a strong campaign and Labour doesn't manage to seem a little more inspiring. To be sure of getting the Tories out there needs to be at least some sort of unofficial pact between the other two main parties. But will consider that their own party purity is more important than getting the Tories out? I fear that's a strong possibility.

As long as it's split in a tactical way (and more and more people are getting wise to tactical voting), it'll work.

Labour regain the Red Wall and North Wales and gain a few seats in larger southeastern towns, and the Lib Dems gain a number of seats in the Home Counties and southwest. Net result - large number of Tory losses, which should be the number one aim of the next election.

It might mean a hung parliament (with Lab largest party) rather than a Labour majority, but perhaps a Lab-Lib Dem coalition might actually be the best result for such things as reforming the voting system anyway, so bring it on!

 

[Thirteen]

I think Starmer and Davey are more likely to work together with a coalition Government.

 

[Howardh]

Sunak's just said what i said years ago - HS2 needed businessmen (on expenses) to make it pay, and now after covid travel has changed (work from home etc); so if that's correct, why nor scrap it altogether?

BUT - other than speed, what about capacity though?? No mention of that.