RMT dispute on Merseyrail

[Overspeed110]

Union leaders who earn that much money need to be careful about strikes stopping ordinary workers who earn a ninth of that from getting to their jobs.

It's a pity those workers who are so badly paid don't have the backing and clout of a strong union behind them, this current race to the bottom, zero hours, minimum wage society we live in needs to change.
And also he doesn't need to be careful. The vast majority of the travelling public is on the RMT's side in these disputes, no doubt the railuk anti rmt anti railstaff militia will be along soon.

 

[Carlisle]

Mick Cash gets a £96,800 salary, he's in no position to talk about fat cats!

I’d be close to that if I earned £1 every time he or his union mentioned Scotland or Wales in glowing terms over recent months.

 

[pemma]

It's a pity those workers who are so badly paid don't have the backing and clout of a strong union behind them, this current race to the bottom, zero hours, minimum wage society we live in needs to change.

You can earn £9000 a year and be well paid. For example, a parent with a young child might work 2 days a week for 7.5 hours per day - £9000 for 15 hours per week is decent pay but if they can't get to work one day due to strike action they could lose half their pay for the week and risk facing the sack for being unable to get to their place of work.

Not everything relates to a 'race to the bottom' despite what the RMT try to brainwash people to think.

And also he doesn't need to be careful. The vast majority of the travelling public is on the RMT's side in these disputes, no doubt the railuk anti rmt anti railstaff militia will be along soon.

I don't think there's any doubt the majority of the public want a visible staff presence on trains but the RMT won't agree to the driver closing the doors even if there is a guarantee of a second person on board. If you look at Twitter responses from passengers you'll notice a huge number of passengers think that Northern already operate driver only trains - so it's obvious Joe Public thinks 'driver only' means no visible staff presence in the saloon, which couldn't be further from the truth.

The majority of the public also don't know the RMT is led by a man who is paid more than MPs.

 

[pemma]

I’d be close to that if I earned £1 every time he or his union mentioned Scotland or Wales in glowing terms over recent months.

And how long before he starts trying to claim the agreement applies to to all XC, Virgin, GWR and TPE services because those franchises operate in Scotland and/or Wales?

 

[kw12]

And also he doesn't need to be careful. The vast majority of the travelling public is on the RMT's side in these disputes, no doubt the railuk anti rmt anti railstaff militia will be along soon.

Where is the evidence that this is the case?

 

[Overspeed110]

Where is the evidence that this is the case?

I work on the railway.
I speak to other grades and listen to what they say and what's happening in the real world.
And it's not what a small minority of people who live in internet forum lala land say.
That's MY evidence, take it of leave it but I really don't care

 

[Robertj21a]

It's a pity those workers who are so badly paid don't have the backing and clout of a strong union behind them, this current race to the bottom, zero hours, minimum wage society we live in needs to change.
And also he doesn't need to be careful. The vast majority of the travelling public is on the RMT's side in these disputes, no doubt the railuk anti rmt anti railstaff militia will be along soon.

Unless you have firm evidence it might be best to avoid such sweeping statements. Personally, I very much doubt if the vast majority of the travelling public are in the least bit interested.

 

[pemma]

I work on the railway.
I speak to other grades and listen to what they say and what's happening in the real world.
And it's not what a small minority of people who live in internet forum lala land say.
That's MY evidence, take it of leave it but I really don't care

Based on your posts on here you refuse to accept the opinion of people who say we should listen to both sides of DOO argument branding them all as anti-union, anti-rail staff etc. It's no surprise that you think the opinions of the rail staff who you work with are the only opinions that matter. There's apparently 35,000 registered users on RailUK Forums - I imagine very few of them have never traveled on trains in the UK, so if you were able to provide concrete evidence that the driver closing the doors on brand new FLIRT trains (which you haven't even seen) on Merseyrail lines is unsafe then I'm sure very few would disagree. However, the RMT are only able to keep using the same arguments for every DOO dispute - anyone who thinks DOO is equally unsafe whether it's a 2 car train, a 12 car train, whether there's a curved platform, whether mirrors are used or whether cameras are used, how well lit the platform is etc. doesn't have a leg to stand on.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I work on the railway.
I speak to other grades and listen to what they say and what's happening in the real world.
And it's not what a small minority of people who live in internet forum lala land say.
That's MY evidence, take it of leave it but I really don't care

A fairly large number of members of the public want a second member of railway staff (i.e. not a rent-a-thug; someone who knows what they are doing to assist with things like connections, tickets etc as well as keep them safe) in the passenger cabin to assist them. My sister is one such person.

I very much doubt they care (or in some cases even know) whether that person operates the doors or not, and I suspect they would be equally satisfied were that person a traditional guard, a guard with driver release, or an OBS.

Indeed, I rather suspect most of them would prefer it to be an OBS who is actually in the passenger cabin at all times over a non-commercial guard hiding in the back cab.

I suspect they would be entirely satisfied with the Southern model, or indeed the similar Strathclyde one. Or even something a bit different like the guard dispatching by waving something to the driver but him being responsible for closing up safely, as you get in some countries. And if their train was probably going to be cancelled because that person was ill, I expect they'd also rather it ran, on that occasion, without them.

 

[mpthomson]

Positively anorexic compared to most University Vice-chancellors.

Given that Vice-Chancellors, some of whom are clearly overpaid, run what are effectively large businesses with budgets of roughly a third of a billion pounds (for a medium sized regional campus) that provide services, housing, catering, sports facilities, academic staff etc etc your comparison has no merit whatsoever....

Classic example of Whataboutery.

 

[B&I]

Given that Vice-Chancellors, some of whom are clearly overpaid, run what are effectively large businesses with budgets of roughly a third of a billion pounds (for a medium sized regional campus) that provide services, housing, catering, sports facilities, academic staff etc etc your comparison has no merit whatsoever....

Classic example of Whataboutery.

Why is it that many of the best-paid VCs helm the worst-rated universities?

 

[pemma]

Why is it that many of the best-paid VCs helm the worst-rated universities?

Maybe because the poorer performing universities find it difficult to attract people who can help them to become better? Should they employ someone on a lower salary even if they don't expect the university to improve under their leadership?

 

[muz379]

The majority of the public also don't know the RMT is led by a man who is paid more than MPs.

And the relevance of that is ? Its totally up to the membership of the union what the general secretary is paid afterall they are the ones funding the organisation . I dont really see what business it is of the public's how much the leader of a union is paid ? The union unlike the TOC's or MP's are not being paid for by the public purse .

The media always used to talk about Bob Crow and how much he earned and the holidays he used to spend his wages on . It always struck me as a complete irrelevance .

 

[Bromley boy]

The media always used to talk about Bob Crow and how much he earned and the holidays he used to spend his wages on . It always struck me as a complete irrelevance .

I think what wound some people up about Bob Crow was the apparent contrast between his stated socialist principles, choosing to live in a council property etc. while earning a great deal more than his union’s members (and the vast majority of the public) ever will and clearly having very expensive tastes.

There was an element of “do as I say, not as I do”.

That issue aside, in fairness to Crow, it seems many who remember his leadership recall him as being a lot more effective in the role of general secretary than Mick Cash. Many also seem to consider that the RMT has fallen a long way in the eyes of its members and the public since his demise.

 

[pemma]

And the relevance of that is ? Its totally up to the membership of the union what the general secretary is paid afterall they are the ones funding the organisation . I dont really see what business it is of the public's how much the leader of a union is paid ? The union unlike the TOC's or MP's are not being paid for by the public purse .

It's hypocritical for Cash to label well paid managers as fat cats when he's getting paid more than some senior managers himself.

Cash's actions directly affect the finances of the general public. Transport strikes mean people lose a day's pay or have to pay more to get to work or in some cases miss out on a new job or on a contract for additional work. However, it's not a problem for Cash as he can afford to spend £50 on a taxi if needed.

Also given pay rises for rail members on the RMT almost always cause reduction in revenue share or increase in subsidy for the relevant rail franchise, I think it's debatable to claim the RMT are not funded by the public purse. (Although, I'm not saying RMT members shouldn't get pay rises.)

 

[pemma]

choosing to live in a council property etc. while earning a great deal more than his union’s members (and the vast majority of the public) ever will

Which is an issue in itself when people are on waiting lists for social housing and spaces in social housing are taken up by people who have enough money to buy their own property, without even needing to take out a mortgage.

 

[B&I]

Maybe because the poorer performing universities find it difficult to attract people who can help them to become better? Should they employ someone on a lower salary even if they don't expect the university to improve under their leadership?

How about paying people big bucks if they improve a failing institution? I suspect that, given the salaries of even the cheaper VCs, recruitment would not be a problem.

 

[pemma]

How about paying people big bucks if they improve a failing institution? I suspect that, given the salaries of even the cheaper VCs, recruitment would not be a problem.

How are you defining a 'failing' university? Some universities have higher drop off rates and a lower number of people award 1st Class Hons. degrees than others but some universities take on more local students than others (meaning it's easier for people to drop out as they don't have accommodation commitments), while most universities accept students who would never be able to get in to the top universities.

 

[Robertj21a]

Perhaps we need to get back on *track*

#

 

[trainophile]

Perhaps we need to get back on *track*

#

Yes I keep opening this thread to find out whether any further Merseyrail strikes have been announced.

 

[kw12]

RMT are to storm Liverpool Town Hall tomorrow afternoon as they claim local councillors aren't taking any notice of them, even though a couple of weeks ago they were making the dubious claim that Liverpool City Council opposed DOO.

What was the outcome?

 

[pemma]

A Merseyrail spokesman said: “First of all we can confirm that along with many other stakeholders across the City Region John Tilley, the RMT regional organiser has been invited to Merseyrail's Annual Stakeholder Reception as he has been in previous years.

“At present, we are still awaiting confirmation if he accepts.

“If he declines the invitation it will be such a shame as it would have allowed him to hear, first hand, some of the added value that this £460m new fleet project will bring to the City Region's economy alongside the £340m upgrade of the Wirral Line and Lime Street.

“This is a truly exciting time for rail users across the City Region.”

The union and Merseyrail are yet to resolve the dispute surrounding guards jobs on the new driver-only trains.

RMT general secretary Mick Cash said: “RMT members on Merseyrail have been engaged in a long, hard fight to stop the lethally ill-conceived plans to throw guards off Merseyrail trains regardless of the impact on passenger safety.

“It is about time that senior Labour politicians in the City took a leaf out of the book of the political leaderships in Scotland and Wales who have played key roles in brokering agreements that guarantee a guard on their trains.

“The 'Merseyrail Stakeholders' need to stop talking amongst themselves and start listening to the people who know about safety on the railway through their daily experiences – the guards and their colleagues out there at the sharp end.

“If the Merseyrail Stakeholders won’t engage with their front-line staff then RMT will take the message to their doorstep.

http://www.wirralglobe.co.uk/news/1...at_annual_reception_to_keep_guards_on_trains/

 

[muz379]

It's hypocritical for Cash to label well paid managers as fat cats when he's getting paid more than some senior managers himself.

Cash's actions directly affect the finances of the general public. Transport strikes mean people lose a day's pay or have to pay more to get to work or in some cases miss out on a new job or on a contract for additional work. However, it's not a problem for Cash as he can afford to spend £50 on a taxi if needed.

Also given pay rises for rail members on the RMT almost always cause reduction in revenue share or increase in subsidy for the relevant rail franchise, I think it's debatable to claim the RMT are not funded by the public purse. (Although, I'm not saying RMT members shouldn't get pay rises.)

I simply do not agree that Cash is being hypocritical in saying that , the well paid managers of in many cases failing franchises are being paid by a business that receives massive public subsidy . As much as you have tried to insinuate that somehow Cash's salary is linked to the public purse it is just factually not , his salary is paid for by the union members . Its upto the members of the union any one of which could challenge it if they did not agree with it .


Anyway I dont think we will come to terms on which we will agree so is pointless discussing it really .

 

[pemma]

I simply do not agree that Cash is being hypocritical in saying that , the well paid managers of in many cases failing franchises are being paid by a business that receives massive public subsidy .

And Cash isn't a failing union leader? The RMT's dispute with Southern has got nowhere, yet ASLEF managed to come to an agreement with Southern in next to no time (compared to how long the RMT dispute has been going on.) Merseyrail certainly aren't a failing franchise, ironically they are more likely to fail as a franchise if they keep guards on all services after the new trains are introduced, as operating costs would spiral out of control.

 

[Robertj21a]

The RMT and all its woes, post-Crow, turns up so often, in so many topics, that it probably deserves a specific thread.

 

[muz379]

And Cash isn't a failing union leader?

That is of course one for the membership , which if memory serves me correctly is something they will get to vote on early next year . In the meantime issues could also be raised through branches .

As for the sourthern dispute , that is not for this thread , but there was movement on GTR's position as a result of the dispute .

 

[B&I]

How are you defining a 'failing' university? Some universities have higher drop off rates and a lower number of people award 1st Class Hons. degrees than others but some universities take on more local students than others (meaning it's easier for people to drop out as they don't have accommodation commitments), while most universities accept students who would never be able to get in to the top universities.

By where they come in the league tables. Students pay extortionate amounts to go to university and in return should be able to expect a first class service from all of them. Isn't that how the free market is supposed to work?

 

[pemma]

By where they come in the league tables. Students pay extortionate amounts to go to university and in return should be able to expect a first class service from all of them. Isn't that how the free market is supposed to work?

Like others have said this is really off-topic but your idea wouldn't work unless universities like Bradford and Bolton specify entry requirements on a par with Oxford and Cambridge to create a level playing field for all universities. As it is someone who would get an automatic rejection from Cambridge might be more than capable of getting a 2.2 so if Bradford offer them the chance to do that and they get what they are capable of, then Bradford hasn't failed for them not getting a 2.1 or a 1st.

 

[Robertj21a]

So can we now get back on track.....???

 

[Carlisle]

And Cash isn't a failing union leader? The RMT's dispute with Southern has got nowhere, yet ASLEF managed to come to an agreement with Southern in next to no time (compared to how long the RMT dispute has been going on.) Merseyrail certainly aren't a failing franchise, ironically they are more likely to fail as a franchise if they keep guards on all services after the new trains are introduced, as operating costs would spiral out of control.

The RMT under Cash has of course won DOO disputes in Scotland, GWR and successfully scared the W.A.G from even considering any DOO so he’s probably not seen (so far anyway) as a complete failure by the membership