I think the reality is the public want a visible staffing presence and many wrongly presume no guard means only a driver on board or that 'driver only operation' automatically means only a driver on board.
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RMT dispute on Merseyrail
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I think the reality is the public want a visible staffing presence and many wrongly presume no guard means only a driver on board or that 'driver only operation' automatically means only a driver on board.
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
So this is OBS, then, basically? Or a slightly modified version with some additional training?
Given the low usage at stations like Aughton Park and Town Green (and some of the quieter Southport line stations) destaffing (with the OBS selling tickets) must surely be on the agenda as well as fare increases - or at the very least reduction in the number of shifts - it's hard to justify Aughton Park having a staffed booking office at 10:30pm when Milton Keynes Central isn't! And it'd be much harder for a ticket office strike to be of any consequence, as there is no safety implication of a strike nor does it disrupt service in any way (and passengers would be in favour as the likely outcome of that would be a free ride).
This must surely now have an effect on Northern and suggest that OBS is going to be the only likely solution - that's two DOO disputes which have now been resolved ("resolved" in the case of SN, I suppose) in that manner.
To be fair, OBS would suit Northern quite well, they could sell tickets without faffing with the doors.
Given the low usage at stations like Aughton Park and Town Green (and some of the quieter Southport line stations) destaffing (with the OBS selling tickets) must surely be on the agenda as well as fare increases - or at the very least reduction in the number of shifts - it's hard to justify Aughton Park having a staffed booking office at 10:30pm when Milton Keynes Central isn't! And it'd be much harder for a ticket office strike to be of any consequence, as there is no safety implication of a strike nor does it disrupt service in any way (and passengers would be in favour as the likely outcome of that would be a free ride).
This must surely now have an effect on Northern and suggest that OBS is going to be the only likely solution - that's two DOO disputes which have now been resolved ("resolved" in the case of SN, I suppose) in that manner.
To be fair, OBS would suit Northern quite well, they could sell tickets without faffing with the doors.
Wasn't the guard saving meant to be £3-4m /p.a. so a reasonable sum to find from fare increases /collection rates?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Indeed, given that fares are typically low. I still think we will see some station destaffing (reduced hours at smaller stations, and possibly a few of the quietest ones destaffed completely) - though OBSs going through doing tickets will no doubt reduce evasion for journeys not involving Liverpool city centre, as my impression from past experiences is that once the ticket office staff stopped collecting tickets on arrival as they did up to the mid 1990s this, particularly by the likes of schoolchildren, skyrocketed.
Robertj21a
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Unless I've missed something (quite possible) it's only Mick Cash commenting, as usual, on 'safety critical'. Has anybody confirmed that he has got his wish - it just looks like a Southern OBS with a few frills to me. What have I missed ?
Kite159
Veteran Member
So large fare rises on the way, or large scale removal of station staff? (With no doubt complaints from Mr Cash when they come out)
Maybe the guards being retained might actually do revenue rather than sitting in the back cab with fare dodging rife!
Maybe the guards being retained might actually do revenue rather than sitting in the back cab with fare dodging rife!
WatcherZero
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Driver operates doors and dispatch but a 2nd person on every train, source of additional funding TBC but RMT proposing it comes from a fare evasion clampdown, raising fares and destaffing 'productivity improvements' stations.
Drivers still have to agree this yet... Lot of assumptions here that the drivers will agree to dispatching. Let's see what gets put to ASLEF first before everyone assumes ticket prices up/fare evasion etc. Also the rank n file have to agree. Does anyone know if they're happy with what's proposed?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
If the second member of staff is mandatory, it isn't *much* of a step to driver open, guard close, or even some kind of Voyager like arrangement where the guard simply signals to the driver that it is clear to close up and go. (I've seen that kind of arrangement on FLIRTs in Europe, I think - the guard just gives the driver the tip, effectively).
Did I read correctly that station destaffing has been actually proposed by the RMT? (To be fair I see barely any point in staffing the likes of Aughton Park; a TVM with ToD would be a significant improvement to the service there).
Voyager dispatch is not driver dispatched though is it? I shut the doors under instruction of the Train Manager. Still their responsibility for dispatch. Let's see what's said first. No one wants a repeat of the Arriva DOO thread. I'm just saying hang fire. Nothing has been agreed, just announced.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Fair point, yes, the guard does give 2 to depart and the driver cannot see the train, which would be a bit different.
But anyway, my point was that now the second member of staff appears to be guaranteed (i.e. in their absence the train is cancelled), the precise detail of what they actually do (beyond being present and trained to assist in emergency) is a bit easier to sort out.
robertclark125
Established Member
I notice that door control passes to the driver on the new trains. It leads me to ask this question; what if Aslef put this to their members, and then ask if they're happy to operate the train even without a second member of staff on board? I know, on the Southern dispute, that when Aslef reached a deal there was anger from the RMT. I don't know how things would be on Merseyside, but if there's bad blood between those at the top of the RMT and those at the top at ASLEF, that the latter makes such a proposal to their members, that they will drive the train without a second person on board if one is NOT available.
danbarnstall
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One would assume Aslef members at Merseyrail want a second person on the train considering their refusal to cross RMT picket lines.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I don't think you can necessarily infer that; many people will not cross picket lines out of principle regardless of reason.
Most if not all drivers on Merseyrail were guards since privatisation. That's what I'm led to believe is the line of promotion. So they're not likely to agree to it on principle, loyalty to previous job and friends, the two criminal cases. I'd say Dan is actually spot on with his assessment. I don't personally think this is over at all.
Robertj21a
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Yes, thanks, I got those bits. Where does Mick Cash get 'safety critical' from ?.
They can do that by not buying said season ticket.
By the same logic you could say Merseyrail drivers should be made to work DOO trains and if they don't like it they can go and work for someone else.
Does anyone know what the financial performance of the M to Go shops has been like ? Perhaps if they could be used as proper convenience stores, rather than glorified tuck shops, they could subsidise provision of staff at the larger Merseyrail stations, at least.
As for fare evasion, the abysmal failure to deal with this, not just on Merseyrail but across most of the British rail network, mystifies me. As usual, we take the cheap approach of saving a few quid on barriers and barrier staff, and lose millions in fare revenue, and probably millions more from people put off rail travel by the anti-social behaviour (or fear of it) which proper fare enforcement would do much to solve
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I’d franchise them to Tesco, Sainsbury’s etc. As they are they are rubbish; they do neither job well at all.
Really, Walrus needs to be extended with a PAYG feature and contactless on the London model introduced. That will reduce the demand for ticket purchase down substantially, given the large amount of free travel too, so one TVM with TOD per station and staffed travel centres at the major stations would do the job well enough. The other argument is personal safety on stations, but most Merseyrail ticket offices are rather distant from the platforms so don’t really provide that.
furnessvale
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Indeed, if enough people do that they won't need the guards.
Problem is, they won't need the drivers either!
The original suggestion to ask the season ticket holders though. Turkey's dont vote for Xmas so why would anyone vote for a fare increase. Sounds like a face saving exercise to put it that way.
And as for the Knutsford ones' idea. Of course. You go and suggest it to one of their drivers at Chester next time you ride the UK's most important line.
And as for the Knutsford ones' idea. Of course. You go and suggest it to one of their drivers at Chester next time you ride the UK's most important line.
So I'll say one of the ASLEF members at another TOC serving Lime Street thinks Merseyrail drivers should accept DOO or leave Merseyrail but he also says there's no way he would accept DOO.
After all I just asked you if you thought the same kind of thinking should be applied to both staff and passengers and you're response appears to be yes.I'd love to know where I've actually said Merseyrail drivers should accept DOO.... Can someone enlighten me by highlighting any post where i have said those actual words? For the record my view is DOO should be in rescinded on every mainline service in the UK in passenger service with driver and guard on each train IMO. No exceptions.
Appologies if this has been answered before. But I cannot understand why they need more money to keep the guard. They currently have guards that they pay for. All it will mean by keeping them is that they won't be able to make savings that's all. Or have I got this wrong.
That is a very good point . Surely the increased ridership if pushed could also pay for it too, should make the extensions a no brainer too. You extend from all the current t artificial boundaries with battery ops. You could recoup money many times over from the likes of Wigan, Preston, Warrington, Helsby etc.
Elecman
Established Member
They needed the savings from DOO to pay for the new trains
You rejected Camden's idea of season ticket holders being asked if they want to pay more to retain on board staffing, saying they can stop travelling by train if they don't like the fare increase. I suggested using the same logic as you were using Merseyrail drivers should have DOO forced on them and they can go elsewhere if they don't like it. Your response was 'of course.'
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