Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread
I'm now going to try to summarise what i have learned from it
The original question asked whether a passenger with a routed ticket could use that ticket on another route where the fare was lower even though it didn't necessarily pass through the routeing point of the fare
I'm rather ashamed to say it had never occurred to me that this might be true!
Island answered straightaway that yes you can:
"If the valid routes from A to B are via C, via D, and via E, a ticket with route via C is also valid via D or via E if it is the same price as, or more expensive than, a ticket which would permit you to go via D or via E"
John@home agreed giving the example of the route Marsden-London via Manchester (higher fare than Any Permitted) being valid on Any Permitted route
RJ gave the opinion that this only applies to routes which have fares but are not listed in the National Routeing Guide
The example he gave was Finsbury Park to Derby
Using brfares.com (02 Jan 2013) we see Anytime Single via Peterborough £99.50 and Anytime Single route Any Permitted (cross-London) £114.50
RJ says that the Any Permitted fare is valid via Peterborough because its a higher fare and its not in the National Routeing Guide
Derby belongs to Derby Routeing Group
Finsbury Park is a Routeing Point
the maps that can be used are:
LONDON
London Derby NM, TV (NM St Pancras Derby via Leicester/Corby, TV Euston Derby via Tamworth but not Birmingham)
London Finsbury Park EE (Finsbury Park to Kings Cross and Moorgate)
This all confirms what RJ has been saying. The bit I don't get is why it matters whether the route is in the National Routeing Guide or not. If there was a route via Peterborough (say maps ER + NM) that wouldn't change anything would it? If you are saying that had Peterborough been a mapped route then you would have to go that way even if the price was higher than other routes then basically you are saying No to my question.
34D seems to have the same reservations as me
maniacmartin seems to support this view too
34D's example of Leeds to London seems a good one (although route Scarborough is a bit bizarre!)
Yorkie's input dealt with the following scenarios:
i) what are the permitted routes for a ticket which is sold for a route which is not permitted
here the permitted routes to and from the routeing point can be used
in RJ's example of Finsbury Park to Derby we would have
Finsbury Park to Peterborough (maps LONDON, ER)
Peterborough to Derby (maps CN, NL)
ER allows Finsbury Park to Peterborough/Oakham (including via Cambridge/Ely), Grantham/Nottingham
CN allows Oakham to Loghborough and Derby
NL additionally allows Grantham-Nottingham-Derby
Therefore we all seem to be agreed that all of these are in effect permitted routes because the Any Permitted fare is
more expensive than the route Peterborough fare
If they were already permitted routes then the Any Permitted fare (by definition) would be valid over them anyway
Therefore wherever a more expensive fare exists over a non-permitted route that route is in fact permitted
ii) tickets routed via stations that are on permitted routes
This basically re-iterates that a ticket for a more expensive (permitted) route is also valid on less expensive (permitted) routes
It might be a good idea to get a zero excess to avoid conflict with staff but to me this is not strictly necessary if the ticket is valid
I then narrowed the discussion to season tickets because the issue that occasioned the whole thing was a member of my team who lives in Guildford and wants to be able to travel to East Croydon via Redhill or via Clapham Junction.
There is no Any Permitted fare except a via London fare which is not available as a season ticket anyway.
At the new prices the seven day seasons (7DS) cost:
route Redhill £72.40
route not via Clapham Junction £62.30
route not via London - no season ticket priced
route any permitted (cross-London) - no season ticket priced
to zones 2-6 route Woking/Clandon £88.30
Its hard to imagine a less helpful set of prices!
The maps for Guildford to Croydon Group are:
LONDON
PD+SC
PD+SC+WX+LB
PD Guildford to Clapham Junction, Epsom
SC Epsom-Sutton-Croydon, Clapham Junction-Streatham-Croydon
WX and LB don't add anything new
So can i say that a season from Guildford to East Croydon via Redhill (not a permitted route) is valid via Clapham Junction?
I gave the example of Gomshall because that at least had a season ticket fare for route Any Permitted
tannedfrog pointed out that Guildford is not a permitted route for Gomshall to Clapham Junction
RJ and maniacmartin said that easement for journeys from Gomshall to London via Guildford could not be assumed to apply to Clapham Junction
keiron mischeviously suggested that a ticket from Gomshall to Guildford might be valid via Clapham Junction but i don't think this is true as for stations with a common routeing point only the most direct route is permitted.
My conclusions are that the Guildford to Croydon via Redhill fare is not valid via Clapham Junction because there is no other fare via Clapham Junction that it is higher than
However the fare from Gomshall to Clapham Junction route Guildford (now £71.20 per week) should be valid via Redhill as it is higher than the Any Permitted fare from Gomshall to Clapham Junction (now £59.10 per week)
Here are the routes:
Gomshall is a member of Dorking Routeing Group
Clapham Junction is a Routeing Point
Dorking-Clapham Junction
CS+LB
DK
SC
SC+WX
CS Dorking-Redhill-Croydon
LB Croydon-Streatham-Clapham Junction
DK Dorking-Epsom-Wimbledon-Clapham Junction
SC Dorking-Epsom-Sutton-Clapham Junction/Wimbledon
WX Wimbledon-Clapham Junction
Gomshall-Clapham Junction via Guildford
Dorking Guildford CS
Guildford Clapham Junction
DK
PD
PD+SC
DK Guildford-Epsom-Wimbledon-Clapham Junction
PD Guildford-Woking/Oxshott-Surbiton-Clapham Junction
SC Not relevant
So Gomshall to Clapham Junction via Guildford is valid as a season ticket to Croydon via Redhill or Clapham Junction
The only problem is the passenger wants to travel from Guildford to Croydon and trains via Redhill generally don't stop at Gomshall
Yorkie in the past has said this is not a problem but to be on the safe side i'm recommending the following
Woking to Redhill
seven day season fares
route Clapham Junction £83.90
route Gomshall £61.90
route Not Via London £69.30
I take the Not Via London fare to be valid via Gomshall as it is a higher fare
I don't see why it should not also be valid via Clapham Junction even though there is a higher route Clapham Junction fare because its a permitted route. The route Clapham Junction fare is equivalent to the Huddersfield London route Manchester fare ie charging extra for something you could do anyway.
Woking: Routeing Point
Redhill: member of Redhill Routeing Group
maps:
LONDON
CS+PD
LB+WX
SC+WX
CS Clapham Junction-Croydon-Redhill, Redhill-Guildford
PD Woking-Clapham Junction, Guildford-Woking
LB Clapham Junction-Croydon-Redhill
WX Woking-Clapham Junction
SC Clapham Junction-Croydon-Redhill
WX Woking-Clapham Junction
I believe that a seven day season from Redhill to Woking route Not Via London is valid for travel between Guildford and East Croydon via either Clapham Junction or Redhill and i plan to recommend it to my team member.
This all seems a bit strange as we both work for Southern and shouldn't have to do this to find the best fare but...c'est la vie
Anyone think i've got this wrong in any way?
Happy New Year to all