RPI's ineffective. What can they do?

[wibble]

...And even then the cost-benefit in most cases will not win.

If you're referring to a business case to install gates, that simply isn't true. Waterloo (NR) station had a positive business case for installing the gates.

 

[calc7]

If you're referring to a business case to install gates, that simply isn't true. Waterloo (NR) station had a positive business case for installing the gates.

No, I'm actually pro-gates! *waits to be shot*

I'm on about having BTP standing around on the off-chance somebody is dodging a fare for three stops down the line.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

I'm sorry to disappoint, but that is not the case. Those who don't have a ticket and don't want to pay at automatic gates just double gate, push through the barriers or jump over.

Or, in the case of Leeds, just amble around and eventually one of the Northern staff will let you through without asking to see a ticket, or walk to the wide gates at the end, with the "Gating Assistance" sign. More often that not these are locked open while the assistants are elsewhere either chatting with colleagues or mingling around letting everyone through the small gates in the middle.

 

[323235]

I'm sorry to disappoint, but that is not the case. Those who don't have a ticket and don't want to pay at automatic gates just double gate, push through the barriers or jump over.

or as I witnessed on the Glasgow Challenge Crawl underneath.

 

[Monty]

or as I witnessed on the Glasgow Challenge Crawl underneath.

I've witnessed that once before, infact there is a rather amusing tale behind it. A young gentleman devoid of funds to purchase a ticket for his journey decided rather than give his details to me he would crawl under the barriers, a nearby customer cried foul and demanded I apprehend the would be fare evader. She was none to pleased when I exclaimed if people want to crawl like a dog to avoid paying a few quid then so be it, and if she wanted to do the same I would not stop her.

When I was an RPI not once did I release the barriers to let a passenger through without showing a valid ticket, but I won't stop them from trying to climb under or over the gateline to get out. The way I see it, one day they'll come up a cropper and a member of the BTP will grab them by the earhole or even better slip and hopefully they'll break something.

I profess, though as much as I would have liked the powers to stop and restrain suspected fare evaders. We should not have such a power as the media and general public would only comment on how we are a bigger bunch of nazi's than we supposedly were/are. :roll:

 

[michael769]

or as I witnessed on the Glasgow Challenge Crawl underneath.

The favorite is Waverley is to stand close to a barrier and when someone puts a ticket in barge through in front of them. When one tried it with me he found that I was somewhat hard to elbow out of the way

 

[Beveridges]

I heard G4S barrier staff are paid very badly, so no wonder they dont care, I know I would never stress myself out for low pay

 

[Flamingo]

Whether or not he had a ticket, he was still in breach of railway bylaws presumably?

Yes, there was a case a while ago (if anybody wants to search the Daily Wail website, I cant' from here)

 

[route:oxford]

Whether or not he had a ticket, he was still in breach of railway bylaws presumably?

Shouldn't take you long to find one if he was.

 

[Flamingo]

Found it - you can be done for not showing your ticket to a railway official if they ask to see it, as this muppet found out:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...rain-rage-woman-ticket-collector-woke-up.html

Although, technically the male the OP described MAY have had a ticket, a season ticket, or a first class all lines rover in his pocket, I would be very surprised if he had anything.

His behaviour matches a fare-dodger, and if it looks like a horse and sounds like a horse, it's not likely to be a Zebra.

 

[Greenback]

Although, technically the male the OP described MAY have had a ticket, a season ticket, or a first class all lines rover in his pocket, I would be very surprised if he had anything.

His behaviour matches a fare-dodger, and if it looks like a horse and sounds like a horse, it's not likely to be a Zebra.

I must also be a fare dodger, as I once nipped through an open barrier while a load of people waited to pass through another gate that was open anyway.

 

[Flamingo]

I must also be a fare dodger, as I once nipped through an open barrier while a load of people waited to pass through another gate that was open anyway.

But were you ignoring people shouting at you to come back after you did?

 

[Greenback]

But were you ignoring people shouting at you to come back after you did?

To be honest I can't answer that. There's always a fair bit of noise at Cardiff in the evening, I was in a hurry and thinking about other things!

 

[Skimble19]

In my opinion, the only real way to tackle serious 'organised' fare evasion would be intelligence operations (where evidence is collated for a considerable time before approaching the suspect) with the TOC and the BTP.

London Underground have a team dedicated to catching those who regularly fare evade, and judging by what was shown on the BBC series they're pretty effective. But then, LUL is a joined up network....

 

[Flamingo]

To be honest I can't answer that. There's always a fair bit of noise at Cardiff in the evening, I was in a hurry and thinking about other things!

Oh, Cardiff. Then they weren't

(To be fair, they are not too bad there)

 

[jon0844]

It's funny how some people do seem to close ranks depending on the 'theme' of the thread! This isn't an insult to anyone, just an observation. I actually feel for revenue staff who are often trying to do a tough job with their hands tied behind their backs - and the current penalty fare isn't high enough to be a deterrent.

As a passenger, if I see someone walk through an open gate or skip around the side of a manual block and refuse to come back when shouted at, I'd likely assume they didn't have a ticket.

Normally, if this was a thread about people not paying for their fares, everyone else would agree. However, as this thread is about the lack of power for rail staff and the ineffectiveness of revenue staff (due primarily to their lack of power OR training), suddenly there's the option that perhaps the person did have a ticket and the staff probably knew it, or the person did have a ticket* or was in fact staff that they all knew.

Clearly none of us were there, but if I was a betting man (and I don't like to lose) then I'd go with the ticketless option!

* I too have regularly walked through open gates if I've seen them, despite having a perfectly valid ticket. Once I was called back (at Westminster tube) but didn't go back as I was in a rush - and could, admittedly, have been done I'm sure. The other time I was called back, I did go back and was let through again without any fuss.

 

[Cheshire Rover]

It's funny how some people do seem to close ranks depending on the 'theme' of the thread! This isn't an insult to anyone, just an observation. I actually feel for revenue staff who are often trying to do a tough job with their hands tied behind their backs - and the current penalty fare isn't high enough to be a deterrent.

As a passenger, if I see someone walk through an open gate or skip around the side of a manual block and refuse to come back when shouted at, I'd likely assume they didn't have a ticket.

Normally, if this was a thread about people not paying for their fares, everyone else would agree. However, as this thread is about the lack of power for rail staff and the ineffectiveness of revenue staff (due primarily to their lack of power OR training), suddenly there's the option that perhaps the person did have a ticket and the staff probably knew it, or the person did have a ticket* or was in fact staff that they all knew.

Clearly none of us were there, but if I was a betting man (and I don't like to lose) then I'd go with the ticketless option!

* I too have regularly walked through open gates if I've seen them, despite having a perfectly valid ticket. Once I was called back (at Westminster tube) but didn't go back as I was in a rush - and could, admittedly, have been done I'm sure. The other time I was called back, I did go back and was let through again without any fuss.

Good post and you have correctly interpreted my OP. What can RPI staff do? It does seem that regardless of all the by laws etc, railway staff are powerless to enforce them unless a customer is compliant. My challenge would be how to better enforce revenue protection? Is there better technology that could help? Believe me, as a commuter paying thousands a year for a season ticket I find it reprehensible that Skangers get away with this sort of thing.

 

[Flamingo]

Our instructions are NEVER put yourself in a situation where it might get violent. Quite how this can be done whilst dealing with people who may not want to part with their cash, and are determined not to, is the circle that needs squaring. But from a TOC point of view, if they say anything else, well then they are leaving themselves open to all sorts of liability in terms of training, equipment and above all, claims from staff when it all goes wrong.

Before anybody says "Then call BTP", they are a very scarce resource, usually ten miles away when needed, and from the point of view of collecting revenue are not in the equation. They will get involved if it escalates to anything, but the first response of management if it does escalate is to blame the staff for allowing it to get to that point.

To be fair, the economics of it, (taking a short-term view) are that the cost of delay minutes, staff overtime to cover statements, possible sick-leave, and injury claims will potentially run into thousands, and is not justified by collecting a £9.60 fare.

 

[Cheshire Rover]

Our instructions are NEVER put yourself in a situation where it might get violent. Quite how this can be done whilst dealing with people who may not want to part with their cash, and are determined not to, is the circle that needs squaring. But from a TOC point of view, if they say anything else, well then they are leaving themselves open to all sorts of liability in terms of training, equipment and above all, claims from staff when it all goes wrong.

Before anybody says "Then call BTP", they are a very scarce resource, usually ten miles away when needed, and from the point of view of collecting revenue are not in the equation. They will get involved if it escalates to anything, but the first response of management if it does escalate is to blame the staff for allowing it to get to that point.

To be fair, the economics of it, (taking a short-term view) are that the cost of delay minutes, staff overtime to cover statements, possible sick-leave, and injury claims will potentially run into thousands, and is not justified by collecting a £9.60 fare.

But it isn't "a" £9.60 fare, it is thousands of them, every day up and down the country. I agree with your point about the BTP by the way.
As fares continue to rise exponentially, it is only fair that those who fare dodge are brought to book in order to be fair to the vast majority of customers who do pay for their travel. Again, my challenge is that unless a passenger is compliant they can completely ignore the RPI's etc so what can be done to help them?

 

[Flamingo]

But it isn't "a" £9.60 fare, it is thousands of them, every day up and down the country. I agree with your point about the BTP by the way.
As fares continue to rise exponentially, it is only fair that those who fare dodge are brought to book in order to be fair to the vast majority of customers who do pay for their travel. Again, my challenge is that unless a passenger is compliant they can completely ignore the RPI's etc so what can be done to help them?

As I said, it's "short term". I can (reluctantly) see the logic. However, it does stick in my craw.

 

[jon0844]

If it's a £9.70 fare I believe the army can be called though..

 

[Flamingo]

If it's a £9.70 fare I believe the army can be called though..

True. It's not generally known that we can deploy nuclear weapons if it's £99 or over.

 

[Greenback]

The question of fare dodging is a very vexatious area.

It's unrealistic to expect every single fare to be paid correctly. All businesses are in the same boat, and expect to have losses somewhere, whether it be wastage in a pub, theft from a shop, fraud in accounting or whatever.

I think Flamingo's point about management attitude is spot on. As a business you do not want valuable members of staff putting themselves at risk, it's not worth it.

And at some point it becomes more expensive to even try and collect unpaid fares than the amount that would be collected.

Even if some way was found to eradicate fare evasion completely, it would have no effect on the fares everyone else pays. Of course, it is morally wrong, and those that are caught deliberately evading the fare should be sent for prosecution, but it's simply not worth trying to extract every possible penny that isn't being paid at the moment.

 

[blacknight]

This is most frustrating. Surely the job of RPI staff is to enforce ticket checks on all passengers, not just those who are compliant with queuing etiquette?
My guess is that the RPI didn't fancy the confrontation but in general, what power does an RPI have to apprehend a non compliant passenger?

Not about not wanting confrontation RPI's lack power to stop & detain attempt to stop physically the little darling claim of assault will go in, can only ask nicely mad world we live in, its frustrating for staff & paying passengers alike.You could start petition for the gloves to come off & for staff to go in with zero tolerance.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The question of fare dodging is a very vexatious area.

It's unrealistic to expect every single fare to be paid correctly. All businesses are in the same boat, and expect to have losses somewhere, whether it be wastage in a pub, theft from a shop, fraud in accounting or whatever.

Taking the shop as example offence its not theft of item vanishing off shelf but more akin to shop lifting as you have an offender to deal with, some will do this by putting offender off at station with a limited service as form of instant justice .

 

[daccer]

I am sure the revenue support experiment with the early franchises is one that will not be continued and a degree of risk will be built into future franchises. Couple of other general points. The Govt seem to be learning from the East Coast problems and insisting on larger performance bonds etc so as to make walking away from unprofitable franchises more of penalty. Lastly I am sure some bean counter somewhere has looked at fare evasion and decided on a model that sees a certain percentage being written off due to the high costs in collecting it. This I am sure is partly offset by the quiet stringent penalties and fines being imposed for what can be classified as minor transgressions. Also there will be an element of customers having to pay twice for misuse of advances and offpeaks etc which will also help counter the loss due to deliberate evasion.

 

[Stigy]

What can RPI staff do? It does seem that regardless of all the by laws etc, railway staff are powerless to enforce them unless a customer is compliant. My challenge would be how to better enforce revenue protection? Is there better technology that could help? Believe me, as a commuter paying thousands a year for a season ticket I find it reprehensible that Skangers get away with this sort of thing.

It seems that most people, through no fault of their own, are under the impression that Revenue Staff, or other rail staff to be honest, are not able to enforce railway law because they are not legally allowed to apprehend offender that refuse to cooperate. This is not correct. RPIs, RPAs and other staff, are allowed, under S.5(2) of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 to detain/arrest a person that refuses to supply their name and address until they can be brought before reasonable justice (the police basically), after somebody has failed to pay their fare. Reasonable is not 3-hours, but for the sake of 10-minutes, it probably is. Open to interpretation. This legislation is just that, and applies to ALL TOCs as well as LUL etc.

The misconception comes when most TOCs have a "no touch" or "hands off" policy. I can understand why staff chose to adhere to these policies, as lets face it, where the Police will have the backing of their forces to an extent, us rail employees seldom receive the same back-up, should complaints be received or somebody gets a slap, from our company, who'd sooner sack you. The law is the law though, and this shouldn't be seen as a breach of company policy. TOCs tend not to tell staff this as they'd rather not, understandably to an extend, have their staff rolling around with people and arresting them. To say it's illegal to do so is not correct.

Obviously it comes down to staff being comfortable to detain somebody, as training to do so isn't supplied in most cases. I am not an RPI but am in an enforcement role. I have detained suspects before although my training is somewhat limited. I wouldn't necessarily as an RPI, but wearing Hi-vis yellow and looking almost like a policeman carries some form of expectation from members of the public etc.

Also, on the initial subject, it should be remembered that rail staff, acting in the course of their duties are exempt from some Byelaws, was this person definitely not rail staff on some sort of "mission"? Rail Staff would be exempt, althoogh I've not checked recently, from the "queuing" Byelaw, for example. Just a stab in the dark really, as I'm sure he was probably a fare evader!

 

[route:oxford]

or as I witnessed on the Glasgow Challenge Crawl underneath.

This has just reminded me.

I used to park in the reading multistorey. At the time, i'm not sure if it still does, the car barriers were quite high. Each evening a little caterham 7 sports car would drive underneath the barrier without presenting a ticket.

I've no idea if he had a season ticket or not, it still brought a smile to my face.

 

[Toots]

Ahhh well there you go you see?,you've just witnessed an obvious crime and Noddy has gotten off scot free ........a phone call to PC Plod methinks...

 

[chuckles1066]

The question of fare dodging is a very vexatious area.

And if you look at my posting history, when I previously dared to suggest employing pensioners on minimum wage at Filton AbbeyWood to stop the cheeky chappies and chapettes from enjoying a free commute every day, I was pretty much shot down in flames. Even though the operation would obviously work at a massive profit.

You might even have been there?

Makes you wonder whether fare-dodging is seen as a priority by the pen-pushers in Swindon :roll:

 

[Flamingo]

And if you look at my posting history, when I previously dared to suggest employing pensioners on minimum wage at Filton AbbeyWood to stop the cheeky chappies and chapettes from enjoying a free commute every day, I was pretty much shot down in flames.

You were shot down in flames because you come up with moronic ideas!