Russia invades Ukraine

[DustyBin]

Goodness knows what the amateur military strategists of uk rail forums will do if this terrible and unnecessary conflict ends.

Breathe a sigh of relief I expect. Would you rather we pretended it wasn’t happening, or simply didn’t discuss it?

I’m sure that when civilian populations were carpet bombed in WW11 with lives lost and homes destroyed they’d be saying “yeah, it’s just a sign of weakness “.

I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make here? This isn’t WWII and nobody is using the dismissive tone you appear to be accusing them of. Attacking civilian targets at this stage is a sign of weakness; I don’t think that’s a controversial statement?

So many on here seem to be blind to the human tragedy unfolding. As usual civilian populations are just pawns in the political games of nation states.

What makes you think this?

To some of the ‘players’ it’s just a testing ground for their latest hi tech weapons and a showcase for future arms sales.

Quite possibly.

There are real people suffering here yet all we hear is constant propaganda from both sides and no serious attempt at negotiation which will have to come eventually. Oh no, send more and more weapons is the constant cry as leaders play their political games.
The world has truly gone mad.

What do you suggest?

If you go back to the early days of this thread there were various off-ramps, compromises, concessions (call them what you will) offered up by various posters, myself included. That was then though and they’re no longer realistic, if indeed they ever were. Have you actually listened to what Putin is saying? How can you negotiate with that?

Putin can put a stop to all of this by ending his illegal invasion and removing his forces from Ukrainian territory. As he won’t however, the Ukrainians are doing it for him. There will probably come a point when Ukraine is ready to negotiate, but it will be on their terms not Putin’s. His current “proposals” are beyond contempt and to arrive at even a starting position for serious negotiations he needs to drastically alter his stance. He’ll only do this if forced to, which is why we are where we are.

 

[najaB]

So many on here seem to be blind to the human tragedy unfolding.

We are very much aware of the human cost. But that is 100% down to Putin and his war of aggression.

As usual civilian populations are just pawns in the political games of nation states.
To some of the ‘players’ it’s just a testing ground for their latest hi tech weapons and a showcase for future arms sales.

While no doubt there are arms companies looking on and learning, don't lose focus on the fact that this is all 100% on Putin. He ordered the invasion of Ukraine, he has ordered the mobilisation of Russians to be sent into the meat grinder, he is ordering the attacks on civilian infrastructure. He has the power to end it. Today.

There are real people suffering here yet all we hear is constant propaganda from both sides and no serious attempt at negotiation which will have to come eventually.

What really is there to negotiate? Putin ordered an invasion of a sovereign country. How can we expect that country to negotiate the loss of its people, territory and resources as a reward for naked aggression. Is the world really well served by setting the example that in the 21st Century war against your neighbours is rewarded by territorial expansion in the same way that it was in the 11th?

Oh no, send more and more weapons is the constant cry as leaders play their political games.

As long as the Ukrainians want to fight, then we have a responsibility to help them. They are the ones fighting and dying but make no mistake, this is our war too.

Vladimir Putin is under growing pressure.
His "special military operation" has not gone according to plan. As a result of the Ukrainian counter-offensive, Russia has been losing territory it had occupied.
Meanwhile, Russian regions bordering Ukraine have been coming under sustained shelling.
What's more, the Kremlin's announcement last month of "partial mobilisation" sparked widespread alarm in Russian society.
President Putin's response? It's not, "Sorry, I made a huge mistake by invading Ukraine." It is tighter security. Not just in occupied Ukraine, but across Russia.
He's doubling down.

Under-pressure Putin 'doubles down' with security decree

Vladimir Putin is tightening security across Russia, with the introduction of different security levels.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[gingerheid]

So many on here seem to be blind to the human tragedy unfolding.

I honestly think you might have less uniquely special insight than you think.

I think people noticed that. This is why it matters. If Russia invading Ukraine to make people's lives better we wouldn't be talking about it.

 

[Cloud Strife]

no serious attempt at negotiation

You don't negotiate with terrorists. It's that simple.

So they don't use nuclear weapons but devastate Ukraine by taking out power and water supplies. I/3 of power in just 8 days. Think about that as winter approaches. Without attacking any more that alone will be crippling.

They are asking for the same thing to be done to them. Ukraine took out the Kerch Bridge despite no-one thinking that they had any chance getting near the place, so blowing up a few power plants in Russia isn't beyond them.

It's also worth pointing out that Ukraine has been doing the same thing in Belgogrod: half the city is without power. And they are perfectly capable of doing the same elsewhere.

 

[Annetts key]

Whatever people here think, or talk about, myself and very likely, most if not all posters would much prefer that there was no war or fighting in Ukraine.

Unfortunately Putin wanted war. The Ukrainians do want to be subjects under Russian rule. And hence they are fighting the Russian invaders. They, the legitimate government of Ukraine asked for help with weapons. What more can I say?

 

[Strathclyder]

Goodness knows what the amateur military strategists of uk rail forums will do if this terrible and unnecessary conflict ends.

Breathe a sigh of relief I think. I know I certainly will.

I’m sure that when civilian populations were carpet bombed in WW11 with lives lost and homes destroyed they’d be saying “yeah, it’s just a sign of weakness “.

Not exactly sure what you're getting at here? This ain't WW2 and no-one here has been using the dismissive tone you appear to be accusing them of. No matter which way you look at it, targeting civilian infrastructure at this stage is a sign of weakness/desperation (and a outright atrocity); hardly a controversial assertion to make?

So many on here seem to be blind to the human tragedy unfolding.
To some of the ‘players’ it’s just a testing ground for their latest hi tech weapons and a showcase for future arms sales.

Where on earth you got this from I don't know, but we are all acutely aware of the scale of the human tragedy unfolding here. If Putin had the best intentions in invading Ukraine, we wouldn't be discussing it nearly to the lengths to which we have.

I also don't doubt that the arms companies are keeping an eye on this conflict and learning from it, same as any other conflict, but it shouldn't be forgotten that this is all on Putin. He ordered the annexation of Crimea on the flimsiest of pretexts. He ordered the full-scale invasion of Ukraine. He ordered the mobilization of Russians to be sent into the proverbial woodchipper under false pretenses. He's ordering the attacks of civilian infrastructure after being repeatedly humiliated on the battlefield. He is the one who has the power to end this. Today. But we both know he won't.

There are real people suffering here yet all we hear is constant propaganda from both sides and no serious attempt at negotiation which will have to come eventually. Oh no, send more and more weapons is the constant cry as leaders play their political games.

What, exactly, is there to be gained by negotiating with Putin at this point? He was the one who ordered the invasion of a sovereign country, having set that ball in motion back in 2014. How on earth can we expect said country to negotiate the horrific losses of it's people, territory and resources as a reward for such flagrant aggression? Why should they negotiate with and try to appease the aggressors?

If the build-up to September 1st 1939 taught us anything at all, it's how not to respond to despotic bullies aggressively rolling over their neighbouring countries. Better for us to steadfastly meet the Ukrainians' pleas for help in their fight to defend their homeland for as long as they are willing than to pass Chamberlain's 'peace for our time' leaflet between us like a baton; nay, we have a responsibility to do so. The Ukrainians are the ones fighting and dying, but make no mistake: this is our war too.

The world has truly gone mad.

It's been mad for decades. It's just far more overt now than it's ever been. What matters now more than ever is how we best respond to such madness. In this instance, consessions, off-ramps, appeasement & negotiations are out of the question now; Putin's doubling down has cast any such possibilties - if they ever existed at all - to the wind.

 

[Fragezeichnen]

You don't negotiate with terrorists. It's that simple.

They aren't just terrorists. Even Ukraine recognises that Russia is a sovereign state which has the right to exist and to control it's own territory. Eventually a peace treaty will be required, or neither side will be able to work closer with international insitutions.

 

[DC1989]

Exactly, once Russia leaves Ukraine then a peace treaty can be negotiated. How much the reparations will be will surely be a long and tough negotiation, once Russia loses militarily and leaves.

 

[Yew]

They aren't just terrorists. Even Ukraine recognises that Russia is a sovereign state which has the right to exist and to control it's own territory. Eventually a peace treaty will be required, or neither side will be able to work closer with international insitutions.

I think you are taking the word terrorist too literally.

 

[yorksrob]

They aren't just terrorists. Even Ukraine recognises that Russia is a sovereign state which has the right to exist and to control it's own territory. Eventually a peace treaty will be required, or neither side will be able to work closer with international insitutions.

I'm not aware of the relevance of this point since Ukraine has never threatened Russia's sovereign right to exist or territory.

Peace will be achieved when Russia withdraws to its own territory.

 

[Pete_uk]

Ukraine has a nuclear bomb apparently

https://twitter.com/francis_scarr/status/1582840182960967680?t=ucY-mAXb7kf0wttWVktiTQ&s=19

 

[GusB]

Ukraine has a nuclear bomb apparently

https://twitter.com/francis_scarr/status/1582840182960967680?t=ucY-mAXb7kf0wttWVktiTQ&s=19

Aye, so does my elderly neighbour!

 

[najaB]

Ukraine has a nuclear bomb apparently

Might be mine. Been looking for it but can't find it anywhere, even down the back of the sofa.

 

[DustyBin]

I think I’d have worded this differently!

https://twitter.com/NickEquipeChass/status/1582739764741931009

Unless Liz is having difficulty writing the letters of last resort?

ETA screenshot:

 

[najaB]

I think I’d have worded this differently!

https://twitter.com/NickEquipeChass/status/1582739764741931009

Unless Liz is having difficulty writing the letters of last resort?

ETA screenshot:

Agreed the wording is terrible. There are already the pre-requisite puns over on the "In other news" thread.

 

[DustyBin]

Agreed the wording is terrible. There are already the pre-requisite puns over on the "In other news" thread.

Ah OK, I’ve never looked at that thread to be honest but not much gets past RUKF clearly!

 

[najaB]

Ah OK, I’ve never looked at that thread to be honest but not much gets past RUKF clearly!

Indeed, we scan the news so you don't have to.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Indeed, we scan the news so you don't have to.

I think RailUK Forums needs a Twitter account that it can use to repost the best bits from the political discussions. It could become the UK's premier news site

(On checking, it turns out that RailUK Forums does have a Twitter account, but very little is posted to it, and - strangely - the few tweets on it tend to be about railways, not about politics ).

 

[DustyBin]

Ben Wallace has just confirmed that an incident occurred whereby an SU-27 released a missile whilst shadowing an RAF RC-135W over the Black Sea. I'd seen rumours that this incident had occurred, but I didn't want to post due to them being totally unconfirmed and it being a potentially serious incident. Apparently it was a malfunction and the RC-135W wasn't fired upon per se. However, as per my post in the flight tracking services thread (Aviation Subforum) it explains why there were a pair of Typhoons with their transponders on accompanying the RC-135W the other day.

 

[Ediswan]

Ben Wallace has just confirmed that an incident occurred whereby an SU-27 fired a missile whilst shadowing an RAF RC-135W over the Black Sea. I'd seen rumours that this incident had occurred, but I didn't want to post due to them being totally unconfirmed and it being a potentially serious incident. Apparently it was a malfunction and the RC-135W wasn't fired upon per se. However, as per my post in the flight tracking services thread (Aviation Subforum) it explains why there were a pair of Typhoons with their transponders on accompanying the RC-135W the other day.

The word being used elsewhere is 'released'.

 

[ainsworth74]

There's also now an article regarding this on the BBC:

A missile was released from a Russian aircraft near an unarmed RAF plane on patrol over the Black Sea, the defence secretary has said.
Ben Wallace said the "potentially dangerous" incident happened on 29 September in international airspace.
Russia said it was a result of a "technical malfunction".
UK patrols over the Black Sea were suspended but have now resumed and are escorted by a fighter jet following Russia's response.
Mr Wallace told MPs the incident was not being treated as a "deliberate escalation" of the war in Ukraine by Russian forces.

Russian jet released missile near RAF aircraft over Black Sea

The unarmed plane was in international airspace when the incident happened last month, a minister says.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[DustyBin]

The word being used elsewhere is 'released'.

Thanks, edited. (There was no intention to dramatise or mislead though).

 

[Sm5]

This war has been a game changer in many ways and I’ve no doubt we’re learning an awful lot from it. The kind of improvisation you refer to however would be of limited use against an advanced western military.

you totally missed the point.
Terrorists go for soft targets, not military, because Military can wipe them out.

Goodness knows what the amateur military strategists of uk rail forums will do if this terrible and unnecessary conflict ends.
I’m sure that when civilian populations were carpet bombed in WW11 with lives lost and homes destroyed they’d be saying “yeah, it’s just a sign of weakness “.
So many on here seem to be blind to the human tragedy unfolding. As usual civilian populations are just pawns in the political games of nation states.
To some of the ‘players’ it’s just a testing ground for their latest hi tech weapons and a showcase for future arms sales.
There are real people suffering here yet all we hear is constant propaganda from both sides and no serious attempt at negotiation which will have to come eventually. Oh no, send more and more weapons is the constant cry as leaders play their political games.
The world has truly gone mad.

both sides want the same people and land.
Yes to much of you say, and yes there is profit being made.
Yes lives are being lost.

But if your solution is compromise, then you are supporting Russia.

They are in land that is not theirs. The only solution is they leave.
If you give them a finger, they will take your arm.

Neville Chamberlain made this mistake, 6 years war followed.
We looked the other way in 2014..
now this is the price being paid.

Russia might not have many short range weapons left, but they havent yet used their longer range. Last time I looked we werent firm favourites in the Kremlin either. I’m sure if the world as we know it was to turn, things may change.. Right now theres a lot of global restraint, but theres also a lot of neighbours who tolerate each other and maybe forced to pick opposite sides in a wider fight. Russia would find a fair number of friends hostile to the UK. We might have NATO, but its designed to fight 1 country not a world war.

Thats why keeping it in Ukraine, supporting Ukraine is in everyones interests, even if it seems unfair.
Unless or until there is a divisive outcome one way or the other, Ukraine needs to be supported.
If they lose and Russia takes the whole country, then we have a lot of very serious thinking to do.

Compromise… and next time it might be in our back yard…, they wont care, theyve shown us their mercy already.

 

[najaB]

We might have NATO, but its designed to fight 1 country not a world war.

NATO, by virtue of having the USA as a member, can fight two geographically separate conventional wars at the same time.

 

[Sm5]

D

NATO, by virtue of having the USA as a member, can fight two geographically separate conventional wars at the same time.

Nato has Greece and Turkey, who can geographically fight each other as well, and with Russian hardware too.

Nato is much about “someone“ protected by the USA, do you really think if push came to shove that Hungary would come to the defence of Poland against Russia without US support (indeed even if with it ?)

Much of Europe hasnt actually done that much for Ukraine, Scandinavia, UK,US, Eastern Europe has done much of the work.

I’d imagine post war the French and Germans will ve the first ones in looking for rebuilding contracts and cheap companies to buy… The EU even proposed dividing Ukraine up into 28 zones of rebuilding influence, France taking Odessa Region, Germany taking Kiev&Kharkiv! .. a proposal for an economic land grab delivered as rebuilding contracts… not sure what the US thinks of that.

This war is as much about helping Ukraine as it is showing NATO still means something, until recently the EU was discussing its own army, and very few were keeping up with spend commitments. This war is a reality check for Europe… its woefully under prepared…

if China teamed up with Russia, that would be a real threat, and a test of US dual war strategy, and not least Chinas manufacturing capacity… the Chinese neednt even go to war, just become an open for all supplier.

one of the problems with post war World organisations, is the lack of mechanisms to expel members.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The EU even proposed dividing Ukraine up into 28 zones of rebuilding influence, France taking Odessa Region, Germany taking Kiev!

They did something like that for Kosovo, e.g. the city that Germany was responsible for has or had a rather fancy German style city bus operation, nowhere else there does. I forget which city it was.

 

[DustyBin]

you totally missed the point.
Terrorists go for soft targets, not military, because Military can wipe them out.

Clearly I did, although we were talking about our preparedness for a particular kind of war rather than terrorist attacks.

 

[Sm5]

Clearly I did, although we were talking about our preparedness for a particular kind of war rather than terrorist attacks.

Terrorist watch the same TV and Social Media as we do.

Thats why we need to invest in tech that neutralizes what we see from crude and sophisticated drone warfare as it has peace time security benefits as well.

Detection systems, that cover wide nets in granular detail, plus Something that messes with the cpu and navigation being the obvious defence.

 

[Class 33]

Putin now planning to blow up major dam in Ukraine causing "historical disaster" flooding thousands of people. Someone needs to hurry up and take out this sick mad evil b*****d.

 

[adc82140]

Putin now planning to blow up major dam in Ukraine causing "historical disaster" flooding thousands of people. Someone needs to hurry up and take out this sick mad evil b*****d.

I'm going to say it again. Stop reading the tabloids!