Scotrail Class 385 Discussion

[Esker-pades]

Class 707 for the Cathcart Circle lines? I've just created this thread for it:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...be-used-for-the-cathcart-circle-lines.177007/

 

[anthannan]

Class 707 for the Cathcart Circle lines? I've just created this thread for it:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...be-used-for-the-cathcart-circle-lines.177007/

The reliability of Siemens product doesn't match Hitachi's. Better to get more 385's a less diverse more reliable fleet imho

 

[snookertam]

I don't think ScotRail themselves have decided what the 385s will end up doing but they'll probably end up scattered across a number of lines. I believe there's a plan for 6 car 385s on some Cathcart Circle services, and a decision needs to be made on what units will replace the current 2x314 worked services on the Neilston branch - probably means more class 318/320 units. Whatever plan they come up with, it probably wont be simple and will involve a fair amount of chopping and changing from the current set up.

I agree that 385s don't seem suitable for the Cathcart routes, but neither are the 380s and it hasn't stopped ScotRail moving the North Berwick diagrams onto the Neilston line. My hope had actually been that the add-on order for additional 385s could be revisited so that an inner suburban version could be created - how feasible that is I'm not sure.

 

[JumpinTrainz]

I feel like the 318s/320s are perhaps more suited to Cathcart/Neilston/Newton/Paisley Canal services. They hold the same sort of configurations as they were built by the same manufacturer but are far more modern as they have just been refurbished plus they have toilets and door controls so they don’t open at every single stop. The 385s and 380s are better suited to longer routes with more capacity such as E&G, Ayrshire, Inverclyde, North Berwick etc.

I think when the 318s/320s go (probably within the next decade) Scotrail will see a huge fleet cascade. It depends whether they would keep the 334s exclusive to A-B or whether they would move them on to the Argyle/North clyde line services. Or who knows they may decide to buy in new stock for these lines. Either way I can’t see the 385s lasting on the old 314 workings

 

[Agent_Squash]

The reliability of Siemens product doesn't match Hitachi's. Better to get more 385's a less diverse more reliable fleet imho

We are talking about the same Siemens here? With the only fleets with MTINs of greater of 100k?

 

[superalbs]

The reliability of Siemens product doesn't match Hitachi's.

Huh, what?

Are any Hitachi products more reliable than any Siemens product?

 

[anthannan]

Huh, what?

Are any Hitachi products more reliable than any Siemens product?

In a word yes. Look at the stats worldwide, it's not close.

 

[InOban]

To drag this thread back on topic, the usual delivery paths have now been loaded for tomorrow.

 

[43096]

In a word yes. Look at the stats worldwide, it's not close.

Look at the stats for this country, which is what is relevant. It’s not even close. Virtually every Siemens fleet is more reliable than Hitachi’s fleets. Given that Hitachi were meant to be showing us how it is done and giving us “Japanese levels of reliability”, that’s a poor effort.

 

[anthannan]

Look at the stats for this country, which is what is relevant. It’s not even close. Virtually every Siemens fleet is more reliable than Hitachi’s fleets. Given that Hitachi were meant to be showing us how it is done and giving us “Japanese levels of reliability”, that’s a poor effort.

The manufacturer stats as a whole are the most relevant imho it balances the effect of other factors not directly related to the trains themselves.

 

[Agent_Squash]

The manufacturer stats as a whole are the most relevant imho it balances the effect of other factors not directly related to the trains themselves.

So a metro train in Japan should be thrown in the same comparison as a Class 350 operating on the WCML? They have different approaches to maintenance, different cultures. The stats of trains already operating in the UK show a more realistic picture for the operating conditions we have in the UK.

 

[anthannan]

So a metro train in Japan should be thrown in the same comparison as a Class 350 operating on the WCML? They have different approaches to maintenance, different cultures. The stats of trains already operating in the UK show a more realistic picture for the operating conditions we have in the UK.

Not just the UK and Japan, everywhere the trains operate. In any event, in the main, the Hitachi figure for the UK needs to be seen on introductory terms. We'll see how things really are in a couple of years.

 

[43096]

Not just the UK and Japan, everywhere the trains operate. In any event, in the main, the Hitachi figure for the UK needs to be seen on introductory terms. We'll see how things really are in a couple of years.

The 395s are well beyond the introduction phase and are less reliable than the majority of Siemens fleets. Truth is that Hitachi are just bang average.

 

[anthannan]

The 395s are well beyond the introduction phase and are less reliable than the majority of Siemens fleets. Truth is that Hitachi are just bang average.

I'm not sure that's the case. Highest Customer Satisfaction on the network.

 

[43096]

I'm not sure that's the case. Highest Customer Satisfaction on the network.

What? How does customer satisfaction come into it when we're talking about reliability?

January Modern Railways gives us the data, Hitachi sets (and re-tractions) in bold:
Class 350/3 - 138,579 MTIN
Class 350/2 - 105,155 MTIN
Class 350/1 - 85,492 MTIN
Class 360/1 - 77,644 MTIN
Class 350/4 - 50,538 MTIN
Class 450 - 42,525 MTIN
Class 395 - 41,181 MTIN
Class 444 - 35,825 MTIN
Class 465/1 - 18,592 MTIN
Class 333 - 17,362 MTIN
Class 465/0 - 16,667 MTIN

That rather supports my assertion that Hitachi are very average, and generally inferior to Siemens' products.

 

[anthannan]

What? How does customer satisfaction come into it when we're talking about reliability?

January Modern Railways gives us the data, Hitachi sets (and re-tractions) in bold:
Class 350/3 - 138,579 MTIN
Class 350/2 - 105,155 MTIN
Class 350/1 - 85,492 MTIN
Class 360/1 - 77,644 MTIN
Class 350/4 - 50,538 MTIN
Class 450 - 42,525 MTIN
Class 395 - 41,181 MTIN
Class 444 - 35,825 MTIN
Class 465/1 - 18,592 MTIN
Class 333 - 17,362 MTIN
Class 465/0 - 16,667 MTIN

That rather supports my assertion that Hitachi are very average, and generally inferior to Siemens' products.

As I've said reliability of Hitachi product is unrivaled worldwide. The Class 350 appears to cover a wide range here which would make the data questionable. If Siemens was such a superior product then surely it would have more orders and not just those based on price?

 

[mcmad]

As opposed to all the Hitachi orders that were based on price?

 

[47271]

We're way off topic guys.

The salient point is that the introduction of 385s has been a shambles and that's been 90% Hitachi's lookout.

 

[InOban]

But now they are arriving, a few months late, they seem to be performing satisfactorily.

And compared with the sleepers, they're nearly on time.

 

[47271]

But now they are arriving, a few months late, they seem to be performing satisfactorily.

And compared with the sleepers, they're nearly on time.

I've been on plenty, and since upthread we're excited by Siemens, yes they're comparable with a 380. On that basis they're alright, I wouldn't give them any more than that.

Are they less late than the mk5 sleepers? Give or take a few months but there's no doubt that more people have been inconvenienced by the chaos around 385s. Noone has had to be crush loaded on CS because their new trains haven't showed up yet.

 

[alangla]

To be fair, the 380s were late into service as well, which screwed up the launch of A2B. Also the memorable incident with the roof hatch which closed the WCML for a morning. Let’s see how they settle in. Thinking about it, have any Scottish EMUs ever worked out of the box? The 303s had transformer explosions that caused them to be replaced by steam loco hauls, the 320s got blacked by the unions for being driver only & allegedly it not being possible to view Argyle line DOO equipment from them & the 334s sat at Polmadie for ages before entering service. Did the 311/314/318s work?

 

[jamieintercity]

Any indication what 385(s) are due to come North tonight/tomorrow from Newton ayrcliffe?

 

[800001]

Any indication what 385(s) are due to come North tonight/tomorrow from Newton ayrcliffe?

Won't know until tomorrow the unit, if ready for transfer, as it will have a yellow panel fitted.

 

[hwl]

As I've said reliability of Hitachi product is unrivaled worldwide. The Class 350 appears to cover a wide range here which would make the data questionable. If Siemens was such a superior product then surely it would have more orders and not just those based on price?

One of the reasons Siemens don't have more orders is because they are comparatively expensive.
Why don't you like comparable UK data rather than incomparable world wide data. The UK reliability stats have stricter definitions than most of europe for example so there is a real danger of apple and oranges being compared.

 

[anthannan]

One of the reasons Siemens don't have more orders is because they are comparatively expensive.
Why don't you like comparable UK data rather than incomparable world wide data. The UK reliability stats have stricter definitions than most of europe for example so there is a real danger of apple and oranges being compared.

It's off topic as has been said. We'll see how the Class 800 series and the 385 perform in the UK. Early indicators on the 800's are good. The class 380 had a more troubled

One of the reasons Siemens don't have more orders is because they are comparatively expensive.
Why don't you like comparable UK data rather than incomparable world wide data. The UK reliability stats have stricter definitions than most of europe for example so there is a real danger of apple and oranges being compared.

And Japan has very strict standards. The variability of the 350 stats in a previous post needs to be looked at imho. When you look at the bigger picture you would usually get more accurate results.

 

[superalbs]

Early indicators on the 800's are good.

Uhh...I don't think they are lol, dropping like flies.

 

[Bungle965]

Uhh...I don't think they are lol, dropping like flies.

Not to mention the cases of bringing down the wires on the GWML.
Sam

 

[route101]

I feel like the 318s/320s are perhaps more suited to Cathcart/Neilston/Newton/Paisley Canal services. They hold the same sort of configurations as they were built by the same manufacturer but are far more modern as they have just been refurbished plus they have toilets and door controls so they don’t open at every single stop. The 385s and 380s are better suited to longer routes with more capacity such as E&G, Ayrshire, Inverclyde, North Berwick etc.

I think when the 318s/320s go (probably within the next decade) Scotrail will see a huge fleet cascade. It depends whether they would keep the 334s exclusive to A-B or whether they would move them on to the Argyle/North clyde line services. Or who knows they may decide to buy in new stock for these lines. Either way I can’t see the 385s lasting on the old 314 workings

Im surprised we dont see 318s/320s on the Paisley Canal .

 

[alangla]

Im surprised we dont see 318s/320s on the Paisley Canal .

They don’t fit under the OHLE. It’s only 314s and 380s that will fit with the power on

 

[Highlandspring]

They don’t fit under the OHLE. It’s only 314s and 380s that will fit with the power on

Someone should tell Network Rail then because they’re route cleared.....