coppercapped
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They'll be out of service with HEx before that - that date is when HS2 Ltd. gains access to the site of the maintenance depot to start site clearance for the Old Oak Common HS2 station.
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Scotrail Class 385 Discussion
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a_c_skinner
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It is an upgrade on a lot of short formed trains though so a satisfactory stop gap.
1. How much time will be saved and how much will be wasted by putting stock through a conversion programme?
2. See my above post. Not enough 380s can be sourced by cascading.
hexagon789
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I suppose there is that, but presumably it could still affect signal sighting in tunnels?
Hah. That'd free up some 156s or 158s… can you imagine one on the EK line?Any spare Pacers about?
If GTR/DaFT will hand over the 365s on sub-lease then they would appear to be a usable solution… but, what's the chance of that?
hexagon789
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Not as slim as you might think, it would seem.
43096
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There’s a lot of crews who would need training on electric traction anyway. So train them on 365s and do a conversion course when Hitachi finally get the 385s sorted. I really don’t see what the issue is.
Fleetwood Boy
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I'd naively assumed that all the necessary crews for E&G were now trained on electric traction - wasn't it what the 380s were being used for before they were pressed into passenger service when the 385s were no-shows? This was why I'd assumed the short-term answer for E&G was to free up as many 380s as possible to cover diagrams on E&G.
I'm still puzzled why there are 321s in storage which are due to come to ScR but no apparent progress with them - don't bother with the refurb for now (unless they're in terrible condition), get them up to Scotland and into service. It isn't the whole solution by a long way, but with a shuffle on the Inverclydes, it would release DMUs off E&G to replace those which have been transferred to Northern? I don't see any reason for short-forming right at this moment in time, although will get tighter again when the next batch of DMUs goes south.
Does anyone know for sure when the next batch of DMUs leaves?
433N
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It was 12/2 when ASLEF put out their note with the statement :
ScotRail is trying to get Hitachi to come up with a solution but, so far, I’m afraid, they have failed.
It would be nice to know if, and how, the situation has moved on from that time. I do think that an official update would be in order ; the railway is an important piece of infrastructure.
ScotRail is trying to get Hitachi to come up with a solution but, so far, I’m afraid, they have failed.
It would be nice to know if, and how, the situation has moved on from that time. I do think that an official update would be in order ; the railway is an important piece of infrastructure.
Fleetwood Boy
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I asked this before and got the following answer
The back of my envelope suggests that the 6 units which have gone so far are being (roughly) covered by the 6 x 380 that I've heard are in use daily on E&G (some of which were displaced off the Inverclyde line, with the rest presumably just reducing the number of spare units each day - not ideal in itself). Its when the rest of the 156/158/170s start moving to Northern that things will get "interesting" - partly because ScR will need more EMUs just for E&G but also because those moves may also require that more of the network electrification has been completed (so if that runs late there simply isn't enough diesel stock available to maintain the services).
The above numbers also suggest that the scale of the problem is potentially larger than the 10 365s which one poster suggested would be coming north, although I guess the HSTs also help to displace DMUs.
And, of course, there's presumably also limited depot capacity for additional EMUs because isn't the facility at Craigentinny to be provided by Hitachi to service the 385s?
The back of my envelope suggests that the 6 units which have gone so far are being (roughly) covered by the 6 x 380 that I've heard are in use daily on E&G (some of which were displaced off the Inverclyde line, with the rest presumably just reducing the number of spare units each day - not ideal in itself). Its when the rest of the 156/158/170s start moving to Northern that things will get "interesting" - partly because ScR will need more EMUs just for E&G but also because those moves may also require that more of the network electrification has been completed (so if that runs late there simply isn't enough diesel stock available to maintain the services).
The above numbers also suggest that the scale of the problem is potentially larger than the 10 365s which one poster suggested would be coming north, although I guess the HSTs also help to displace DMUs.
And, of course, there's presumably also limited depot capacity for additional EMUs because isn't the facility at Craigentinny to be provided by Hitachi to service the 385s?
Scotrail have updated staff today, basically saying they are working 'very hard' along with Hitachi to find a solution to the windscreen issue. No real timeframe nor any mention of bringing in additional traction as a stopgap. Looks like they're waiting to see what happens.
And remember ScotRail hasn't accepted delivery of any yet, so they're still Hitachi's property.
Potentially also not wanting to undermine any ongoing negotiations with any ROSCO about alternate stock.
In that staff announcement it DOES mention that: "We are doing everything possible to secure alternative electric trains to address this problem." That suggests to me that they are indeed looking to bring in additional EMUs as soon as practically possible.
it would be unthinkable not to have a plan B ready to put in place just in case the windscreens take longer to fix.
The trouble is that until Hitachi guarantee a timeframe for the modification, then Abellio don't know whether they need alternative emus for a few weeks or over a year. How on earth can they negotiate with the Roscos until they know the length of the lease?
a_c_skinner
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They need to take a pessimistic view and cough up. Sorry. Hitachi need to pick up the tab.
That depends in part on who is doing the negotiating, which depends on at least two contracts (Abellio and Caledonian Rail Leasing, and Caledonian Rail Leasing and Hitachi). It's plausible, arguably even likely, that Abellio aren't the ones directly negotiating with the ROSCOs.
Fleetwood Boy
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Sorry, didn’t explain myself properly. It isn’t siding space which could be a problem, it’s maintenance capacity. I can’t help feel that Shields Road must be close to capacity but would the Hitachi facility at Craigentinny be made available to maintain units other than 385s?
a_c_skinner
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Up to Hitachi, assuming the contract was written properly.
So Scotrail have a contract with Caledoian Rail Leasing, therefore presumably CRL have to provide Scotrail with EMUs, CRL have a contract with Hitachi for 385s, if Hitachi fail to deliver they presumably have penalties to CRL, CRL however have to find whatever EMUs they can to provide to Scotrail until the 385s are usable.
hexagon789
Veteran Member
I thought they were in talks about obtaining 10 Class 365s, or was that a rumour?
all SR say officially is discussions are ongoing and no further comment because of commercial confidentiality.
hexagon789
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Which is wonderfully helpful, I was sure someone had posted that ScotRail were in talks about the 365s though, mind you.
It's not implausible that that the penalties on Hitachi for failing to deliver to CRL are "find alternative stock", hence it could be Hitachi's problem.
that was me. Can't name my source though.
43096
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Hitachi are in danger of having a major reputational problem if they are not seen to be behaving properly in this case - by that I include picking up the tab for alternative stock.
This is the first order for a new product and they will want future orders in a market where there is serious competition from Bombardier, Siemens, CAF and Stadler. It doesn’t take much for future orders to be sunk through poor support/attitude. Ask Alstom.
it all comes back to how long Hitachi think it will take them to rectify the problem, information which is not public domain.
hexagon789
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Fair enough, I will reiterate that 365s seem the obvious choice if they can get them.
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