Scotrail Class 385 Discussion

[gingertom]

Fair enough, I will reiterate that 365s seem the obvious choice if they can get them.

The 365s would be a good choice, with the least hassle to their introduction so a lot of boxes ticked.

 

[hexagon789]

The 365s would be a good choice, with the least hassle to their introduction so a lot of boxes ticked.

The primary downside in my view is the 2+3 seating, not popular on suburban units let alone the Premier route.

 

[gingertom]

The primary downside in my view is the 2+3 seating, not popular on suburban units let alone the Premier route.

maybe that's why the December date touted for introduction was to give them time to have the seating seen to? If only one of the facilities had space to undertake the work... but commercials would have to be agreed long before that can happen.

 

[43096]

The primary downside in my view is the 2+3 seating, not popular on suburban units let alone the Premier route.

Errrrrrrrr, the 365s have 2+2 seating.

 

[gingertom]

Errrrrrrrr, the 365s have 2+2 seating.

so they do.

 

[TEW]

Errrrrrrrr, the 365s have 2+2 seating.

And they've spent most their life so far working London-Cambridge Express services, a route not dissimilar to Edinburgh-Glasgow in length and style.

 

[Goldfish62]

Fair enough, I will reiterate that 365s seem the obvious choice if they can get them.

Nice trains. Just a shame they lack aircon

 

[433N]

Nice trains. Just a shame they lack aircon

Completely unsuitable for Scotland then. How will we keep cool on the barmy , sunny days ?

 

[clc]

Completely unsuitable for Scotland then. How will we keep cool on the barmy , sunny days ?

The usual way: ‘taps aff’.

 

[Stopper]

Completely unsuitable for Scotland then. How will we keep cool on the barmy , sunny days ?

E-G peak time services are like a sauna the majority of the time.

 

[tom1649]

E-G peak time services are like a sauna the majority of the time.

Air con can't be up to the job then. Perhaps opening windows will help...

 

[Stopper]

Air con can't be up to the job then. Perhaps opening windows will help...

Perhaps some sort of train that is actually long enough so that passengers aren’t crammed in like sardines standing.....

Hopefully very soon.

 

[MatthewRead]

Completely unsuitable for Scotland then. How will we keep cool on the barmy , sunny days ?

It's not usually that hot in Scotland

 

[Mingulay]

It's not usually that hot in Scotland

Indeed not . But even on cold days like today ScotRail dish up 158s with no heating working . Icebox carriage this am !

But they can equally bake you in summer, just so you can experience the full range of discomfort .

Throw in no leg room and a WC out of order , its a full house of sensory discomfort they can offer you !

"Scotlands Best ever Railway "

 

[Southsider]

The trouble is that until Hitachi guarantee a timeframe for the modification, then Abellio don't know whether they need alternative emus for a few weeks or over a year. How on earth can they negotiate with the Roscos until they know the length of the lease?

One way of addressing the length of lease issue (assuming 365s are the preferred option) would be to revise the deployment plan for the 385s. For example :

Take the required number of 365s to satisfy Edinburgh to Glasgow on an 18 or 24 month lease depending on Hitachi's best estimate for a solution.
Return 380s to Inverclyde and 320s and 318s to north Clyde.
As 385s become available deploy them to the other routes for which they are planned, Cathcart Circle, Neilston and Newton then Stirling, Dunblane and Shotts as electrification schemes are completed. Release DMUs as planned or possibly earlier.
Finally deploy 385s to E&G.
Keep an option open to retain 314s as a contingency in case timescales slip.

This gives the 365s ROSCO a reasonable fixed term lease to make it worth their while, gets a reasonable standard of electric stock onto E&G, eliminates the need for short forming when more diesels go and provides some flexibility in the form of the 314s.

 

[mde]

One way of addressing the length of lease issue (assuming 365s are the preferred option) would be to revise the deployment plan for the 385s. For example :

Take the required number of 365s to satisfy Edinburgh to Glasgow on an 18 or 24 month lease depending on Hitachi's best estimate for a solution.
Return 380s to Inverclyde and 320s and 318s to north Clyde.
As 385s become available deploy them to the other routes for which they are planned, Cathcart Circle, Neilston and Newton then Stirling, Dunblane and Shotts as electrification schemes are completed. Release DMUs as planned or possibly earlier.
Finally deploy 385s to E&G.
Keep an option open to retain 314s as a contingency in case timescales slip.

This gives the 365s ROSCO a reasonable fixed term lease to make it worth their while, gets a reasonable standard of electric stock onto E&G, eliminates the need for short forming when more diesels go and provides some flexibility in the form of the 314s.

This does sound like a logical course of action - it protects the "premier" route from teething trouble which is likely when the 385s go into service and removes the 314s in a timescale closer to what is being sold to the public just now. Of course, the media will have a field day with old trains, but, at the end of the day, it'll be an improvement for all, so, it's a win win.

 

[gingertom]

This does sound like a logical course of action - it protects the "premier" route from teething trouble which is likely when the 385s go into service and removes the 314s in a timescale closer to what is being sold to the public just now. Of course, the media will have a field day with old trains, but, at the end of the day, it'll be an improvement for all, so, it's a win win.

I agree, but the one thing missing is Hitachi's best estimate for a fix. Without that we can't progress any plan A, B or C.

 

[mde]

I agree, but the one thing missing is Hitachi's best estimate for a fix. Without that we can't progress any plan A, B or C.

I think given the repeated slippages from Hitachi et al so far you'd want to add an extra contingency on top of any estimate they provide. Unfortunate, really - this isn't doing their reputation any favours.

 

[Southsider]

I agree, but the one thing missing is Hitachi's best estimate for a fix. Without that we can't progress any plan A, B or C.

It's not visible publicly but I'm sure it has been shared with Scotrail and the other interested parties and 18 months has been touted in the press.

 

[gingertom]

It's not visible publicly but I'm sure it has been shared with Scotrail and the other interested parties and 18 months has been touted in the press.

As far as I am aware that rumour was for a complete redesign of the front end. If this proves to be accurate then plan B needs activated. Now. Get the 365s for 24 months. Train the drivers. Organise the maintenance cover and stabling. Deal with the "old trains" fallout. Buy the time to fix the 385s.

 

[superkev]

Are the 315's currently heading for scrap not suitable as a stopgap. Look identical to 314's
K

 

[gingertom]

Are the 315's currently heading for scrap not suitable as a stopgap. Look identical to 314's
K

they are very similar and share the same technical running gear, so they share the same spares parts availability. Quite sure some could be cannibalised for parts to keep several others running if the demand was there.

 

[Southsider]

Are the 315's currently heading for scrap not suitable as a stopgap. Look identical to 314's
K

The 365s, which are also available, are far better suited to E&G in terms of performance and ambience.
314s operate on suburban Glasgow routes and, to much local unpopularity, Inverclyde.

 

[Southsider]

I think given the repeated slippages from Hitachi et al so far you'd want to add an extra contingency on top of any estimate they provide. Unfortunate, really - this isn't doing their reputation any favours.

Makes you wonder if, even after the dust has settled, the option for additional 385s will be taken up.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Makes you wonder if, even after the dust has settled, the option for additional 385s will be taken up.

Given that they are garbage in most possible ways, I hope it is not. I'm sure Bombardier, Siemens and Stadler are all capable of something better.

 

[gingertom]

Given that they are garbage in most possible ways, I hope it is not. I'm sure Bombardier, Siemens and Stadler are all capable of something better.

traction-wise they would seem to be very good.

 

[Bletchleyite]

traction-wise they would seem to be very good.

They've got to have some good things about them.

So far we have, though:
* Design issues with the cab
* Quality issues with bolts
* Window layout unsuitable for aligning seats and therefore seats not aligned (as a 23m unit they need 5 windows in the centre section to align Standard seats, not 4 - though the 2 massive ones of the 380 and 700 are also acceptable)
* Small windows and large pillars, particularly by the doors where a body designed for pocket doors seems to have been used unnecessarily

And of course things that are ScotRail's fault:
* Totally unacceptable First Class seating which is barely suitable to be Standard class in the Class 800

Any more? To me they just look like a cheap[1] and nasty clone of the very nice Class 380.

[1] If not cheaper, then that's worse still.

 

[Clansman]

To be fair they don't look like a generic pocket door design, if you look at the passenger section above the boggies youll see that when opened, the doors overlap the window. Just seems to be a case of a very poor window design, especially in the centre section.

 

[superkev]

The 365s, which are also available, are far better suited to E&G in terms of performance and ambience.
314s operate on suburban Glasgow routes and, to much local unpopularity, Inverclyde.

But presumably the 315's would not need any driver or fitter training.
K

 

[Southsider]

But presumably the 315's would not need any driver or fitter training.
K

There would probably be significant driver training required but that to one side, i think other factors take priority in this instance.