Scotrail Class 385 Discussion

[433N]

I'm still thinking about the physics of this. Curved glass per se won't produce multiple images, it might distort a little but even that should be minimal if the glass surfaces are parallel. I've had a large number of vehicles (all road, alas!) with slightly curved laminated glass windscreens which were optically good. My guess is that the numerous laminae in the laminated glass are not as laminated as they should be and the extra reflective surfaces inside the screen are the problem and no one even thought this could happen. If I am correct a simple replacement of the correct quality should be enough. Leaving only the bolts and the software albeit after a long make, test and manufacture in bulk process.

I think from what has been said, the glass is quite thick. The incident light from the signal is partially transmitted and partially reflected at each surface. The light goes through one air/glass boundary at the outer surface of the window and then meets a glass/air boundary on the inner side of the glass. Part of the light is transmitted into the cab but part will be reflected back through the glass. It then hits the glass / air boundary at the outer part of the window where, again, it will be partially transmitted and partially reflected. The reflected part will pass back through the glass to the inner side of the window where again it will be partially transmitted. Given the thickness of the glass, refraction and reflection angles, the path of this reflected-reflected-transmitted light might be quite different to the transmitted light entering the cab, thus leading to two images. Of course, this happens in the day as well but the reflected-reflected-transmitted light is so weak that your eye will probably not pick it up. When driving at night, your eye becomes naturally more sensitive to light, hence more of an issue.

I don't know if that makes sense to anyone, but I can well understand this to be possible (but I have worked with optical components for a long time). It is possible that anti-reflection coating of the inside surface of the glass may cut this but the curvature might make it difficult.

More pertinently, I think the question has become as to what is politically acceptable. Suppose there is a quick fix, but then an incident occurs somewhere down the line that can be remotely tied to this problem ; can you imagine. The problem is so well-documented now that I think it will need a major revision and really do think that they should get in alternative traction PDQ.

 

[Chris125]

The latest 'Rail Engineer' has an article on the 385s, which on page 26 says that the problem has occurred due to a new standard requiring windscreens to have greater impact resistance - the extra layers combined with the curvature produce the ghosting effect.

https://www.railengineer.uk/2018/03/29/rail-engineer-april-2018-rolling-stock-and-infrarail-preview/

 

[jayiscupid]

What would you have preferred though? The HST as it is being delivered is probably a better product than the bi-modes that are entering service elsewhere in GB. I have no problem with criticism, but, some of it (from certain tabloids) was bordering on the ridiculous.

As I mentioned earlier, there's plenty to (rightly) bash ASR et al on - old rolling stock, or, the TSSA favourite of highlighting who Abellio's parent company is are perhaps not the best use of time. On the 385 front, I'd like to see Hitachi being called out more - this impressive blunder is entirely of their doing, yet, they've managed to shield themselves somewhat.

I highly doubt Hitachi is trying to shield themselves from this as that would go against Japanese business culture.(https://theculturetrip.com/asia/japan/articles/sumimasen-behind-japans-apology-culture/)

You only have to see the personal apology video from Karen Boswell for the aircon fault on the first IEP to see how seriously Japanese business take failure. Once they have a fix I would expect a full apology but until they have a solution and an end date to the problems it's probably all-hands-on-deck to solve this.

 

[Mordac]

Hopefully no one will be committing Sepukku over this though!

 

[Mingulay]

Hopefully no one will be committing Sepukku over this though!

There may be a few ministers who should fall on their swords when looking at a their performance in various responsibilities over the years I would suggest.

I do like the idea of more Japanese involvement in the our railway tho !. Shake up TS and Scotrail management with some Japanese managers. We will soon have high speed punctual services you can set your clock by . There will be barely time to sample the Sushi trolley before you arrive on time in Polmont, not a Tunnocks product to be had and no litter on the trains . Alex Hynes bowing in grovelling apology on the platform for the 30 second late arrival of the Milngavie service. Its the way to go. The First Minature should be stopping off in Japan on her China trip .

 

[gsnedders]

There may be a few ministers who should fall on their swords when looking at a their performance in various responsibilities over the years I would suggest.

I do like the idea of more Japanese involvement in the our railway tho !. Shake up TS and Scotrail management with some Japanese managers. We will soon have high speed punctual services you can set your clock by . There will be barely time to sample the Sushi trolley before you arrive on time in Polmont, not a Tunnocks product to be had and no litter on the trains . Alex Hynes bowing in grovelling apology on the platform for the 30 second late arrival of the Milngavie service. Its the way to go. The First Minature should be stopping off in Japan on her China trip .

How many lines in Japan have the number of trains per hour than plenty of lines in Scotland have? Fairly few, AFAIK, because they tend to have more parallel lines.

 

[Steamysandy]

As someone who discovered the almost unknown side of Japanese Railways a few years ago,I would suggest that the system has a lot of much heavier trafficked lines compared to Scotland.
For a start there are regular passenger services right across the country and not only in Tokyo.There appears also to be a fair amount of freight traffic on the Trunk lines,nearly all of it containerised
There are also some branch lines which would pass in places for the West Highland line but here there are some which have similar services.
Closures do occasionally happen- just last week the Saiko line in West Honshu .closed (A very scenic line but little traffic)
What has to be taken into account is that Japan is a bigger country than Scotland, lengthwise.
Imagine running a 15 coach train from Berwick on Tweed to Dundee every 15 minutes calling at all stations throughout the day and two of these coaches are double deckers(on 3ft 6 gauge!) and that is the sort of service to be found using Edinburgh in place of Tokyo!
Have a look at YouTube of stationsmovements at Omiya for example for an idea of what there is to see- and I haven't mentioned the Shinkansen!

 

[route101]

Used a 365 yesterday , nothing wrong with them really !

 

[mde]

An update of sorts in RAIL:

Hitachi has confirmed to RAIL that new windscreens are to be fitted to ScotRail’s new Class 385s, which are already late entering traffic because of infrastructure problems.

The Japanese manufacturer is building 70 electric multiple units for SR. These were due to enter traffic last year, but infrastructure delays prevented their main line testing. Once that began, drivers’ union ASLEF said modifications were needed to the windscreens, and that unless these were made the drivers would not drive the units.

On April 4, a Hitachi spokesman told RAIL: “We are currently working with manufacturers and partners on viable solutions. Once the solution is agreed, windscreens will undergo rigorous testing - working with ScotRail, regulators and unions - before the trains enter service.”

No date for this has been provided by either the manufacturer or the operator.

ScotRail spokesman Angus Duncan said recent reports of delays of 12-18 months for the trains were false, telling RAIL: “The ‘385s’ will be in service as soon as Hitachi has resolved the problems, and testing is completed successfully.”
Speaking in February, when the windscreen problems were discovered, Kevin Lindsay, ASLEF’s organiser in Scotland, said: “The windscreen is curved and, at night, is making drivers see two signals. It’s like looking through a fish bowl all the time.”
https://www.railmagazine.com/news/n...further-delay-as-new-windscreens-to-be-fitted

 

[a_c_skinner]

That doesn't square with borrowing redundant 365s does it? That speaks of a delay that will run well into next year unless the guesstimates on here about how long it would take to put them in place are very wrong. Someone said 365s from the Dec. timetable change and that makes me think they are planning for a delay of about 12 months or more even if they won't say so.

 

[380101]

That doesn't square with borrowing redundant 365s does it? That speaks of a delay that will run well into next year unless the guesstimates on here about how long it would take to put them in place are very wrong. Someone said 365s from the Dec. timetable change and that makes me think they are planning for a delay of about 12 months or more even if they won't say so.

They may be continuing to say that the 12-18 month delay is false, but I would expect no 385s in service till earliest May next year. 2 companies in 2 different European countries are working on alternative windscreens. Obviously both screens will need to be fitted to a 385 and lots of testing carried out to evaluate which screen will work. Alterations to the cab structure on the drivers side will also most likely be required to fit any new screen as I highly doubt Hitatchi will go for a curved screen as a replacement.

 

[D365]

Although the 365s are a higher spec internally, they aren’t going to be as simple to drop in as the 319s. Significant EMC testing will be required to ensure they don’t cause undue interference to S&C, as their power electronics are much more primitive than even the Class 334.

 

[gingertom]

Significant EMC testing will be required to ensure they don’t cause undue interference to S&C, as their power electronics are much more primitive than even the Class 334.

Any adverse interaction needs to be discovered asap so we don't waste any further time: either a different solution needed or immunise the S&C. Sounds expensive and time-consuming.

 

[hexagon789]

An update of sorts in RAIL:

Hopefully that means we won't be waiting potentially 18 months then.

 

[380101]

Any adverse interaction needs to be discovered asap so we don't waste any further time: either a different solution needed or immunise the S&C. Sounds expensive and time-consuming.

If the E-G has been resignalled (im sure it would have needed to be anyway) along with the electrification then the signals and associated equipment should be adequately shielded from electrical interference.

 

[gingertom]

If the E-G has been resignalled (im sure it would have needed to be anyway) along with the electrification then the signals and associated equipment should be adequately shielded from electrical interference.

only one way to find out for sure. Let's get one up here for test.

 

[hexagon789]

If the E-G has been resignalled (im sure it would have needed to be anyway) along with the electrification then the signals and associated equipment should be adequately shielded from electrical interference.

If it has been they've kept quiet about it.

 

[Southsider]

I don’t understand why the introduction of interim stock is being proposed for the December timetable change. By then two things will have happened:
Hitachi will have resolved the windscreen issue or at least be close.
Scotrail will have suffered huge reputational damage through short forming services and running diesel units under the very expensive OLE for over a year since its commissioning.
The sensible option is to deploy the interim stock in the next two or three months and get some tangible benefit from it. If that’s not possible then take the pain - December is pointless.

 

[D365]

It’s not a certainty that new signalling infrastructure would be safe, as I said the GTO-era power electronics on the 365 are long obsolete. May have been a secondary factor as to why GWR gave up their 21 units.

I imagine the issue of signalling immunisation may have been why the Class 325 postal units were based on the Class 319 rather than the 365, despite the superior performance of the Networker platform.

I don’t understand why the introduction of interim stock is being proposed for the December timetable change.

Aside from the 365s, the only potentially suitable AC EMUs available this year are the 319s. Which I believe are considered quite a step down.

 

[takno]

If it has been they've kept quiet about it.

All of the older stuff has been redone over the last couple of years. The most recent work was completed last month. They did largely just get on with it though

 

[hexagon789]

All of the older stuff has been redone over the last couple of years. The most recent work was completed last month. They did largely just get on with it though

I don't recall it being mentioned you see, but I suppose it is made necessary by the electrification.

 

[Chuggington21]

Most of the e&g still have the same 4 aspect signalling that's been in for years

 

[takno]

I don't recall it being mentioned you see, but I suppose it is made necessary by the electrification.

I don't think there's been anything relating to the electrification. I was more thinking of the Cowlairs stuff that was done in the last 10 years or so, and the Greenhill section which was done last month (post electrification). The point being that there's no prehistoric signalling, and everything is controlled from Edinburgh. I can't see any particular reason to think that a class of unit that runs through all sorts of prehistoric systems between Kings Cross and Kings Lynn would struggle on the E&G

 

[D365]

I can't see any particular reason to think that a class of unit that runs through all sorts of prehistoric systems between Kings Cross and Kings Lynn would struggle on the E&G

That’s not an arguement that would satisfy Network Rail. EMC testing now is a lot more rigerous than it would have been a couple of decades ago.

Obviously in this case it’s not related to the 385s but they have completed infrastructure testing of their own.

 

[hexagon789]

I don't think there's been anything relating to the electrification. I was more thinking of the Cowlairs stuff that was done in the last 10 years or so, and the Greenhill section which was done last month (post electrification). The point being that there's no prehistoric signalling, and everything is controlled from Edinburgh. I can't see any particular reason to think that a class of unit that runs through all sorts of prehistoric systems between Kings Cross and Kings Lynn would struggle on the E&G

Personally I've no idea, that electrical technical stuff is a bit beyond me!

 

[Chris125]

The latest 'Rail Engineer' has an article on the 385s, which on page 26 says that the problem has occurred due to a new standard requiring windscreens to have greater impact resistance - the extra layers combined with the curvature produce the ghosting effect.

https://www.railengineer.uk/2018/03/29/rail-engineer-april-2018-rolling-stock-and-infrarail-preview/

Story now online: https://www.railengineer.uk/2018/04/09/class-385-debut-further-delayed/

 

[mde]

Story now online: https://www.railengineer.uk/2018/04/09/class-385-debut-further-delayed/

From that article…

… certainly a tight working environs!

 

[Goldfish62]

From that article…

… certainly a tight working environs!

Still looks more spacious than a class 458 cab!

 

[TRAX]

How is this even legal as a working environment...

 

[mde]

How is this even legal as a working environment...

Have to ponder what the cushioned bit at the top of the desk is for…