Scotrail Class 385 Discussion

[Fleetwood Boy]

Are the 315's currently heading for scrap not suitable as a stopgap. Look identical to 314's
K

I just don't know where the 315s could be used. I guess they could displace 380s off their remaining Inverclyde diagrams (unpopular, but hey ho - needs must). Or they could sub for 320s on Cathcart Circle & Branches. But not really an ideal solution, especially if they can't be put straight into traffic, require staff training, etc.

 

[gingertom]

There would probably be significant driver training required but that to one side, i think other factors take priority in this instance.

would they need that much training? They are practically identical, except for the 4th trailer which SR may want removed anyway? As you say there are more important things, like getting the 385s up to speed.

 

[gingertom]

I just don't know where the 315s could be used. I guess they could displace 380s off their remaining Inverclyde diagrams (unpopular, but hey ho - needs must). Or they could sub for 320s on Cathcart Circle & Branches. But not really an ideal solution, especially if they can't be put straight into traffic, require staff training, etc.

the only sensible use is to allow 380s to be displaced off Inverclyde services for use on the E&G. A few extras for out of service and waiting for spare parts 314s would be useful too.
We also have to look ahead to when Shotts electrification is ready and looking for suitable stock, and Polmont-Falkirk G-Stirling-Alloa-Dunblane. Both schemes gathering pace.

 

[hexagon789]

maybe that's why the December date touted for introduction was to give them time to have the seating seen to? If only one of the facilities had space to undertake the work... but commercials would have to be agreed long before that can happen.

I assumed that was the earliest they felt they could train drivers on them avd get them into service bit I suppose interior alterations might be done as well.

 

[hexagon789]

Errrrrrrrr, the 365s have 2+2 seating.

Whoops, you are of course correct, my mistake. Though it's also 2+2 in First Class.

 

[hexagon789]

Nice trains. Just a shame they lack aircon

Not really that fussed about that personally. I think getting any vaguely suitable train is more important considering.

 

[bramling]

This does sound like a logical course of action - it protects the "premier" route from teething trouble which is likely when the 385s go into service and removes the 314s in a timescale closer to what is being sold to the public just now. Of course, the media will have a field day with old trains, but, at the end of the day, it'll be an improvement for all, so, it's a win win.

The 365s are only barely older than the 170s, so they're hardly old. They're recently refurbished too, and just to cap it off the blue colour scheme is roughly lending a nod towards the Saltire.

 

[gingertom]

Anything that delays their deployment ought to be avoided. Longer Faster Greener etc once an hour instead of 4 times an hour misses the target somewhat.

 

[GusB]

Whatever stock is used as a stop-gap, I don't think the livery should be a priority. We don't even know if 365s are definitely heading north yet. A couple of stick-on Scotrail logos should be enough in the short-term; anything else would be a waste of money.

 

[gsnedders]

Whatever stock is used as a stop-gap, I don't think the livery should be a priority. We don't even know if 365s are definitely heading north yet. A couple of stick-on Scotrail logos should be enough in the short-term; anything else would be a waste of money.

Indeed. Remember that the first of the 320/4s got pressed into service in time for the Commonwealth Games in de-branded LM livery.

 

[class387]

Whoops, you are of course correct, my mistake. Though it's also 2+2 in First Class.

The first seats are much more comfortable than the standard ones though, so it isn't a case of just adding an anti-macassar to pretend that it's first.

 

[mde]

Given the 170s which are currently running around in de-branded blue, I don't think there'd be any particular need to brand them.

A logo on the outside perhaps, which, with recent thematic branding ops (Halloween, Poppy Scotland, Christmas 2017 etc) SR have proved to be able to do quite quickly - and, the relevant internal signage (properly, not like some of the fleet which still has FSR signage with the First logos removed/blanked) should be enough to do the trick. Oh, and loading the PIS with Fletcher Mathers so that people don't get confused.

We should also remember that the 314 fleet is mostly still in SPT carmine & cream - it doesn't seem to cause issues (other than people complaining because the train looks older than it is) - so, a massive spend on branding (unless Hitachi is paying) would just be a poor use of funds.

[edit]Carmine is of course the 'red' shade - so that should have read as 'carmine & cream', not 'carmine & red' - what a numpty!

 

[mde]

The 365s are only barely older than the 170s, so they're hardly old. They're recently refurbished too, and just to cap it off the blue colour scheme is roughly lending a nod towards the Saltire.

I don't disagree with you - but - certain media outlets in Scotland have an 'issue' with the operator and will mis-represent the 365s as being ancient - see, for example, use of 314s and the HST - the tabloids had great fun Abellio bashing there. And, of course, 'transport journalist of the year' (sorry @Chrism20) Al Dalton in The Scotsman is bound to do a splendid job of it as well.

 

[gingertom]

I don't disagree with you - but - certain media outlets in Scotland have an 'issue' with the operator and will mis-represent the 365s as being ancient - see, for example, use of 314s and the HST - the tabloids had great fun Abellio bashing there. And, of course, 'transport journalist of the year' (sorry @Chrism20) Al Dalton in The Scotsman is bound to do a splendid job of it as well.

do you expect him to congratulate on plugging the gap caused by "teething issues"? of course not. Inaction will draw criticism too, and rightly so. So SR is damned if they do, damned if they don't. Better to have tried than do nothing and pass the buck. PR departments silent for fear of litigation?

 

[Highlandspring]

Mr D visited Control on Wednesday this week, hosted by the Chief Operating Officer. Later the same day an internal announcement was sent to all staff about the 385 situation and the plans going forward.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Wonder when they'll go public with it?

 

[gingertom]

Wonder when they'll go public with it?

and driver training restarted when?

 

[hexagon789]

The first seats are much more comfortable than the standard ones though, so it isn't a case of just adding an anti-macassar to pretend that it's first.

Are they a different seat then?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are they a different seat then?

Yes.

Class 365 Standard

Class 365 1st

 

[hexagon789]

Yes.

Class 365 Standard

Class 365 1st

Thanks for the photos, the Standard ones look better than the 385 Std Class ones in the mock-up shots.

 

[PYROOGOBBO]

So a combination of 380's and 365's for the E-G line sound like a possible 2018 - 2020 solution?

i just wonder if the 320's coming in may play a role, i'd love to see them on the GLQ - Edinburgh via falkirk grahamston route

 

[mde]

do you expect him to congratulate on plugging the gap caused by "teething issues"? of course not. Inaction will draw criticism too, and rightly so. So SR is damned if they do, damned if they don't. Better to have tried than do nothing and pass the buck. PR departments silent for fear of litigation?

Well no, of course not - but - the negative story would be doing nothing at all - which - rightly so, would be condemned. But, the local media don't especially like action either - for example… the introduction of the HST fleet led to some comical stories whining about the age of them, which, despite being technically true, were nothing more than a SR bashing opportunity. There's plenty of things Abellio, Transport Scotland, and Humza Yousaf can be called out for, but, it's the silly and incredulous that the media have a habit of pursuing. It requires little homework or investigative journalism - just a quick once over of a press release sent in and there you have it, a story. Add in Scotrail's usual "best railway Scotland has ever had" line if you get a chance for some extra points.

Come to think of it though, there hasn't been a story about people in Inverclyde moaning about the 314s in a week… what will it be next? The most recent one was this gem where a reduced rate was being demanded. You can predict that the rollout of 365s may result in similar stories/demands. Of course, if the seating in the 385s is as bad as the IEP stock down south then even that might attain some amusing demands as a result…

Returning back to 385s - the tannoy at Haymarket has been playing a message about test trains which are unadvertised but may stop at the station, and, to which, customers should not attempt to board if the doors open. Has anyone seen a 385 on the route recently which actually did stop at intermediate stations? I did spot a movement on RTT from Millerhill EMU Yard to Waverley (5Z22 13:19), but, the return leg (5Z25 17:03) shows as cancelled. Looks like 5Z36, 5Z81 and 5Z91 were also cancelled; but, a few movements this morning have gone ahead.

 

[Northhighland]

The criticism around the HST announcement was a valid point, serious money was spent on EG and the crumbs left given to the rest of Scotland. That is a valid point to make. Not bashing anyone just pointing out the decision. On balance may even be a correct decision.

 

[mde]

The criticism around the HST announcement was a valid point, serious money was spent on EG and the crumbs left given to the rest of Scotland. That is a valid point to make. Not bashing anyone just pointing out the decision. On balance may even be a correct decision.

What would you have preferred though? The HST as it is being delivered is probably a better product than the bi-modes that are entering service elsewhere in GB. I have no problem with criticism, but, some of it (from certain tabloids) was bordering on the ridiculous.

As I mentioned earlier, there's plenty to (rightly) bash ASR et al on - old rolling stock, or, the TSSA favourite of highlighting who Abellio's parent company is are perhaps not the best use of time. On the 385 front, I'd like to see Hitachi being called out more - this impressive blunder is entirely of their doing, yet, they've managed to shield themselves somewhat.

 

[gingertom]

What would you have preferred though? The HST as it is being delivered is probably a better product than the bi-modes that are entering service elsewhere in GB. I have no problem with criticism, but, some of it (from certain tabloids) was bordering on the ridiculous.

As I mentioned earlier, there's plenty to (rightly) bash ASR et al on - old rolling stock, or, the TSSA favourite of highlighting who Abellio's parent company is are perhaps not the best use of time. On the 385 front, I'd like to see Hitachi being called out more - this impressive blunder is entirely of their doing, yet, they've managed to shield themselves somewhat.

one has to wonder how such a fundamental cock-up managed to slip through.

 

[mde]

one has to wonder how such a fundamental cock-up managed to slip through.

Absolutely. Is there some learning that can be taken for testing of new stuff going forward, or, was it just a monumental cockup in Hitachi's design/implementation? If it's the latter though, you have to wonder why it took until the units landed in Scotland for it to be picked up on…

 

[a_c_skinner]

I'm still thinking about the physics of this. Curved glass per se won't produce multiple images, it might distort a little but even that should be minimal if the glass surfaces are parallel. I've had a large number of vehicles (all road, alas!) with slightly curved laminated glass windscreens which were optically good. My guess is that the numerous laminae in the laminated glass are not as laminated as they should be and the extra reflective surfaces inside the screen are the problem and no one even thought this could happen. If I am correct a simple replacement of the correct quality should be enough. Leaving only the bolts and the software albeit after a long make, test and manufacture in bulk process.

 

[hexagon789]

one has to wonder how such a fundamental cock-up managed to slip through.

I've been wondering that ever since the issues first came to light. One would hope they might at least throw in an extra unit or two free of charge.

 

[mde]

I've been wondering that ever since the issues first came to light. One would hope they might at least throw in an extra unit or two free of charge.

That was Alstom's resolution for the 334 issues, so, there is a precedent so to speak… whether or not Hitachi / Caledonian Rail Leasing would be game for it is another story.

 

[hexagon789]

That was Alstom's resolution for the 334 issues, so, there is a precedent so to speak… whether or not Hitachi / Caledonian Rail Leasing would be game for it is another story.

The 334s were exactly what I was thinking of, Hitachi may not like it but presumably the other option is less money for them overall.