Scotrail Class 385 Discussion

[Steamysandy]

So just let things slip? I get the feeling that's already the mantra for rail projects. A degree of urgency wouldn't go amiss, as I mentioned already we have very expensive (and late in completion) OLE being underutilised. No wonder Chris Grayling lost patience with the industry's inability to deliver; I'm beginning to come round to his way of thinking.

That's priceless seeing Graylings making the biggest F---- up of all on the. GW and MML electrifications!

 

[Southsider]

That's priceless seeing Graylings making the biggest F---- up of all on the. GW and MML electrifications!

He's the government minister, not the delivery body.

 

[mde]

So just let things slip? I get the feeling that's already the mantra for rail projects. A degree of urgency wouldn't go amiss, as I mentioned already we have very expensive (and late in completion) OLE being underutilised. No wonder Chris Grayling lost patience with the industry's inability to deliver; I'm beginning to come round to his way of thinking.

I'd say a degree of urgency is certainly being exercised - the lost revenue will be doing the balance sheet no favours…

What stock could they deploy today which would allow for suitable rolling stock to be pushed over to E&G? The answer doesn't appear to be simple or especially clear cut.

 

[Macwomble]

So just let things slip?

Not suggesting that at all. It's now clear delivery promises (made 2 years + ago) can't be kept so Plan B has to come into play but Plan B has to be got 100% correct or it'll end up another ***** up.

As for urgency.....I'll bet there are loads of people scurrying about Scotrail HQ working their collective ***** off trying to get something sorted.

 

[mde]

An update of sorts in RAIL…

http://dlvr.it/QPwGCJ

 

[InOban]

Of sorts just about sums it up. When they've agreed a new window design they'll be fitted at Springburn, but no indication how near they are to agreeing on a new design, so we're not really any further forward.

 

[swaldman]

So just let things slip? I get the feeling that's already the mantra for rail projects. A degree of urgency wouldn't go amiss, as I mentioned already we have very expensive (and late in completion) OLE being underutilised.

Only the people on this forum, and perhaps those who pay for DMU fuel, care about OLE being underutilized. Perhaps better to consider the E-G passengers who would quite like it if there were some trains to carry them.

 

[Southsider]

Only the people on this forum, and perhaps those who pay for DMU fuel, care about OLE being underutilized. Perhaps better to consider the E-G passengers who would quite like it if there were some trains to carry them.

That's my point - get more electric trains under the wires within a reasonable timeframe, given the circumstances I don't think eight months (actually longer given the time that has elapsed) is reasonable. I understand that there are complex issues to be addressed but I would have thought some progress worthy of a press release would have been made by now.
As to who cares, everyone in Scotland should as it's their money that funded it and the question is bound to be asked "could it have been better spent on other things?" Down south the answer has been yes, how long before the Scottish Government get hacked off with high profile rail project failures?
Don't get me wrong, I am in favour of electrification but the industry's delivery record must be placing future schemes in jeopardy.

 

[433N]

It would be good to see some progress.

When introducing the HST 2 weeks ago, someone asked when there would be an announcement about the 385s on Alex Hynes twitter feed. He replied 'Soon'.

His definition of the word seems to be a bit different to mine .

 

[hexagon789]

It would be good to see some progress.

When introducing the HST 2 weeks ago, someone asked when there would be an announcement about the 385s on Alex Hynes twitter feed. He replied 'Soon'.

His definition of the word seems to be a bit different to mine .

It would be, things seem to be no further forward than a few weeks ago, hopefully ScotRail see about those 365s as cover soon.

 

[92002]

That's my point - get more electric trains under the wires within a reasonable timeframe, given the circumstances I don't think eight months (actually longer given the time that has elapsed) is reasonable. I understand that there are complex issues to be addressed but I would have thought some progress worthy of a press release would have been made by now.
As to who cares, everyone in Scotland should as it's their money that funded it and the question is bound to be asked "could it have been better spent on other things?" Down south the answer has been yes, how long before the Scottish Government get hacked off with high profile rail project failures?
Don't get me wrong, I am in favour of electrification but the industry's delivery record must be placing future schemes in jeopardy.

Think it was the Scottish Government in the form of Transport Scotland who specified the windscreen with all the problems.

So sounds like they should have left it to the professionals.

Bit late now but probably the best move would have been to make a run on order for 380s. If the saga goes on SWT will be putting their 707s off lease. Once they get their new kit. They're more or less a modern version 380 in 5 car sets, but would need an internal refit.

 

[47802]

Think it was the Scottish Government in the form of Transport Scotland who specified the windscreen with all the problems.

So sounds like they should have left it to the professionals.

Bit late now but probably the best move would have been to make a run on order for 380s. If the saga goes on SWT will be putting their 707s off lease. Once they get their new kit. They're more or less a modern version 380 in 5 car sets, but would need an internal refit.

So your seriously suggesting that Hitachi will not be able to fix the 385 issues before the 707 come off lease

 

[hexagon789]

So your seriously suggesting that Hitachi will not be able to fix the 385 issues before the 707 come off lease

The way things have been going it wouldn't surprise me, though I wouldn't take 707s.

 

[Southsider]

Think it was the Scottish Government in the form of Transport Scotland who specified the windscreen with all the problems.

So sounds like they should have left it to the professionals.

Bit late now but probably the best move would have been to make a run on order for 380s. If the saga goes on SWT will be putting their 707s off lease. Once they get their new kit. They're more or less a modern version 380 in 5 car sets, but would need an internal refit.

I don’t think that’s quite correct. Transport Scotland specified the corridor connection, Hitachi designed around that specification. As has already been discussed at length the windscreen issue is down to Hitachi unless they have some sort of indemnity clause in their contract.

 

[Highland37]

Think it was the Scottish Government in the form of Transport Scotland who specified the windscreen with all the problems.

No that is not true or correct.

TS specified that the train should have a gangway and obviously this requires windows either side.

They did not specify *the* windows that are causing the issues. That was and remains Hitachi's responsibility.

 

[92002]

No that is not true or correct.

TS specified that the train should have a gangway and obviously this requires windows either side.

They did not specify *the* windows that are causing the issues. That was and remains Hitachi's responsibility.

As part of the specification for the gangway, Transport Scotland also specified a new tougher windscreen. Which is what Hitachi supplied to their specification.

They also specified much of the interior.

Hence Hitachi has supplied a train to their customers specification.

 

[mde]

As part of the specification for the gangway, Transport Scotland also specified a new tougher windscreen. Which is what Hitachi supplied to their specification.

Is the screen spec unique to TS though? What about the IETs?

 

[Domh245]

The windscreen impact resistance won't have been specified by TS, it'll have been derived from the Railway Group Standards, which themselves refer to BS EN 15152:2007 "Railway applications. Windscreens for trains", which it is interesting to note that there is a new version out as a draft for public comment that Hitachi have presumably worked towards. Really, the blame is almost entirely down to Hitachi, and trying to apportion any real blame to Transport Scotland is quite frankly ludicrous.

 

[380101]

As part of the specification for the gangway, Transport Scotland also specified a new tougher windscreen. Which is what Hitachi supplied to their specification.

The windscreens weren't specified by TS. The latest crash regs specified the type of screen to be used. The screens fitted meet all the technical specifications for a 100mph EMU ie; they can withstand an impact at 100mph. I doubt TS have the expertise to be able to specify windscreen glass to withstand an impact at 100mph.

 

[ainsworth74]

Is a 385 being shipped back to Japan?

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K99088/2018/04/29/advanced

 

[Northhighland]

The windscreens weren't specified by TS. The latest crash regs specified the type of screen to be used. The screens fitted meet all the technical specifications for a 100mph EMU ie; they can withstand an impact at 100mph. I doubt TS have the expertise to be able to specify windscreen glass to withstand an impact at 100mph.

I don't think anyone would argue that Hitachi designed the windscreen. What I would suggest is that the argument about the cost of the delay Hitachi will point out that the infrastructure was not available and testing did not happen on programme and that was not their fault. Would indicate that this will be complex contractual situation with no sole liability and as suspected the taxpayer will end up footing the bill.

 

[a_c_skinner]

The latest "Rail" (he says, putting down his ABC and Thermos) implies new windscreens will be fitted to units in the local depots, which rather hints that the replacement is well in hand and won't mean structural changes. I have no idea if the is correct. Now back to underlining numbers in my books.

 

[mde]

Is a 385 being shipped back to Japan?

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K99088/2018/04/29/advanced

If it was (and, again, this is wibble) wouldn't it have been easier to send one of the un-delivered units from Newton Aycliffe?

 

[Typhoon_93]

If it was (and, again, this is wibble) wouldn't it have been easier to send one of the un-delivered units from Newton Aycliffe?

As this unit is one of the pre-series sets with no interior could it be simply that the type testing is complete and it’s just heading for secure storage at Tees Dock. There is another path in tonight.

 

[ainsworth74]

If it was (and, again, this is wibble) wouldn't it have been easier to send one of the un-delivered units from Newton Aycliffe?

Well, there is also a rumour (strongest possible emphasis on the word rumour) doing the rounds that Hitachi HQ aren't pleased with the quality of the work being carried out at Newton Aycliffe.

However...

As this unit is one of the pre-series sets with no interior could it be simply that the type testing is complete and it’s just heading for secure storage at Tees Dock. There is another path in tonight.

That would make sense and probably more sense than them being sent away to Japan.

 

[scotraildriver]

The latest "Rail" (he says, putting down his ABC and Thermos) implies new windscreens will be fitted to units in the local depots, which rather hints that the replacement is well in hand and won't mean structural changes. I have no idea if the is correct. Now back to underlining numbers in my books.

Alex Hynes has confirmed any remedial work will be done at KB Springburn

 

[superkev]

Well, there is also a rumour (strongest possible emphasis on the word rumour) doing the rounds that Hitachi HQ aren't pleased with the quality of the work being carried out at Newton aycliffe

They have caused Hitachi who have a reputation to uphold considerable embarrassment with the class 800 water cascade and now the 385's.
I suppose it's a product of the UK being deskilled over the last few years by successive governments.
K

 

[scotraildriver]

To be fair the 385's built in Japan have the same issues

 

[JamesT]

They have caused Hitachi who have a reputation to uphold considerable embarrassment with the class 800 water cascade and now the 385's.
I suppose it's a product of the UK being deskilled over the last few years by successive governments.
K

Weren't the first few 800s (including the units used in the initial public run) ones shipped over from Japan? Nothing to do with Newton Aycliffe.

 

[InOban]

Well, there is also a rumour (strongest possible emphasis on the word rumour) doing the rounds that Hitachi HQ aren't pleased with the quality of the work being carried out at Newton Aycliffe.

However...



That would make sense and probably more sense than them being sent away to Japan.

But they're not going to Newton Aycliffe, but to Tees export dock.