Scotrail Class 385 Discussion

[YorkshireBear]

No - what I am saying it Abellio / TS chose to take the risk of an unproven design and should therefore also take some of the responsibility for the problems they face.

A lot of trains are evolution of past designs followed up by prototypes. Look how many prototype rail-buses existed before the production versions.

This is our money. The 2nd places bid could have used proven technology and be delivering benefits now.

We'll agree to disagree then. They employed a competent train builder who succesfully introduced at least one class to UK and many in japan. Where drivers also need to see signals.

Albellio and TS are responsible for plan B.

 

[a_c_skinner]

Leaving aside the bolts (probably quick) and the software (could be ages), I'm intrigued by the windscreen thing. There must be other vehicles where curved front screens work well, if only in aircraft. Is it just badly made? (Like the bolts and the software).

 

[92002]

Leaving aside the bolts (probably quick) and the software (could be ages), I'm intrigued by the windscreen thing. There must be other vehicles where curved front screens work well, if only in aircraft. Is it just badly made? (Like the bolts and the software).

The problem seems to revolve about the chosen windscreen is double glazed.

However the two panes are offset from each other and causes the effect.

Understand that a new version has been made but no indication of delivery date for trial.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ah. Could perhaps a single-glazed but thicker screen provide a workable substitute?

 

[92002]

Possibly could, this was an idea to do away with single thick screens.

Simple fix could be as simple of making the two panes square to each other.

 

[marks87]

Possibly could, this was an idea to do away with single thick screens.

Simple fix could be as simple of making the two panes square to each other.

Would that work?

All double glazing creates a "ghosting" effect when you look at a light source through it, but not absolutely straight at it.

We have triple glazing in our house and if you look at a streetlight at night, you get three images of the light itself.

 

[92002]

We have old fashioned double glazing at home and there is no distortion. However the panes are square to each other.

Perhaps this is a triple glazing effect.

 

[Southsider]

We have old fashioned double glazing at home and there is no distortion. However the panes are square to each other.

Perhaps this is a triple glazing effect.

No, we get it from double glazing. Two images of something bright (light source) and its immediate surroundings when viewed obliquely.
If that’s the problem I would hope the glaziers can come up with a solution fairly quickly.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Possibly could, this was an idea to do away with single thick screens.

Some new ideas are bad ones, such as the "sandwich" wheelsets that caused the Eschede disaster. If they are conventionally one single thick piece of glass, going back to that would seem a not overly difficult (subject to testing etc) solution.

 

[92002]

Some new ideas are bad ones, such as the "sandwich" wheelsets that caused the Eschede disaster. If they are conventionally one single thick piece of glass, going back to that would seem a not overly difficult (subject to testing etc) solution.

Guess the nearest thing to simulate a signal would be car headlamps. I don't get any refraction from these through the double glazed unit.

Guess we need to see what solution is adopted. No doubt the best brains in Japan and the world in the area have been having just a few sleepless nights to get a solution.

 

[marks87]

Perhaps I’m misunderstanding what you mean by “square”. If you’re meaning perfectly in line then I still don’t think it makes a difference.

Glass refracts light. So any light source that’s not shining straight through (w.r.t. to the observer) will be “shifted”. That’s not a problem with single glazing, but when you add more panes it causes the ghosting effect because the light hits them at different points.

 

[Mingulay]

No, we get it from double glazing. Two images of something bright (light source) and its immediate surroundings when viewed obliquely.
If that’s the problem I would hope the glaziers can come up with a solution fairly quickly.

I can exclusively reveal Hitatchi have just announced a solution to the cab window defect.

Scottish Transport Minister Humza Yousaf said..." I'm delighted a soloution has been found. You only replace train windows once , so fit the best, fit Everest"

 

[Northhighland]

No - what I am saying it Abellio / TS chose to take the risk of an unproven design and should therefore also take some of the responsibility for the problems they face.

A lot of trains are evolution of past designs followed up by prototypes. Look how many prototype rail-buses existed before the production versions.

This is our money. The 2nd places bid could have used proven technology and be delivering benefits now.

Tut tut. You must realise that criticism of the Scottish Government and the agencies they control is outlawed by some. Everything Humza has done is correct. I am surprised though he has not been more vocal in blaming the contractor. Especially as they are made in England.

 

[bonzawe]

Tut tut. You must realise that criticism of the Scottish Government and the agencies they control is outlawed otherwise you unleash the trolls. Everything Humza has done is correct. I am surprised though he has not been more vocal in blaming the contractor. Especially as they are made in England.

The fact that the silence is deafening might suggest the legal position is not as straightforward as some might imagine and the complex negotiation over liability is with the lawyers. Could be particularly true over the consequential losses like hiring temporary stock.

 

[Clansman]

For the record there's already a transport related thread for Scottish political bashing, which was actually derived from this and the HST thread...

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/discussion-of-snp-and-transport-policy.154596/

 

[joig]

Would that work?

All double glazing creates a "ghosting" effect when you look at a light source through it, but not absolutely straight at it.

We have triple glazing in our house and if you look at a streetlight at night, you get three images of the light itself.

Just had a look trough or double glazing . The street light directly across the street shows a single light which is fine .However if i look at the street light up the street i have can see three lights this is a distance of about 20 Meters . Looking at the street light down the street about 60 meters away I can see at least four lights.
I would not like to be in charge of a train if this is typically seen by the driver . This has to be tested and solved before this train enters service.

 

[a_c_skinner]

Double glazing, that explains it. The aircraft I looked at were not done by Ted Moult. In that case it should be simple to resolve.

 

[D365]

Not the first time Scotrail have got burnt. If I recall 170470 and 471 were compensation for delivery issues.

Two of the Class 334s as well, according to wikipedia.

 

[Domh245]

Two of the Class 334s as well, according to wikipedia.

I wonder then if they actually need 72 class 385 units, but only ordered 70 in the knowledge that they'd get 2 more added on by the manufacturer at no cost! :P

 

[scotraildriver]

385122 on test tonight. 2 runs between Edinburgh and Glasgow.

 

[Southsider]

385122 on test tonight. 2 runs between Edinburgh and Glasgow.

Would be interesting to know if the windscreen has been modified. Seems strange to knowingly go out with a faulty one although I suppose it’s possible that the issue isn’t as bad as has been assumed on here and there are ways of eliminating or minimising the effect.

 

[D365]

I wonder then if they actually need 72 class 385 units, but only ordered 70 in the knowledge that they'd get 2 more added on by the manufacturer at no cost! :P

Well there was the option for 10 additional units on the order...

 

[a_c_skinner]

I've had an idea. They could simply fill the gap between the two panes with clear resin with the right refractive index, the stuff people repair windscreen chips with.

 

[380101]

The problem seems to revolve about the chosen windscreen is double glazed.

However the two panes are offset from each other and causes the effect.

Understand that a new version has been made but no indication of delivery date for trial.

The windscreen is a triple laminated screen - almost bullet proof and is designed to withstand an impact at 100mph.

It is is not double or triple glazed as some here have suggesting. there is no gaps between the layers. The issue is the thickness and the curve. The solution is to change the shape of the window area and fit flat screens. To do this requires alot of design work and engineering changes before it can be resubmitted for crash testing, hence the projected 12 - 18 month timescale.

 

[hexagon789]

I've had an idea. They could simply fill the gap between the two panes with clear resin with the right refractive index, the stuff people repair windscreen chips with.

Would that meet crash regs and has it ever been done before, though?

Not a bad idea on the whole though.

 

[XDM]

Another bright idea.
Bring in the brains who rectified the unbelievable Hubble space telescope fault. Possibly an extra windscreen curving exactly the other way.
They apparently rectified Hubble's curved mirror fault remotely, & whilst it remained in hostile space. Scotland cannot be half as difficult as that to work in, can it?

 

[laseandre]

Some may bend the rules to chase revenue but this should never happen. They must be in the rear incase the train splits ETC. However it is not unusual on busier services for another Guard to be deployed as assistance so perhaps this is what you have witnessed.

I literally just got on a 6 car 334 at DBC to see the conductor run past me from the back to the front set - it does happen.

 

[Failed Unit]

I literally just got on a 6 car 334 at DBC to see the conductor run past me from the back to the front set - it does happen.

DBC? What does that mean?

However I don't think anyone will dispute that it does happen, it is rare. As a regular on the Edinburgh - Glasgow line the fare dodgers tend to go to the front coach safe in the knowledge that you will rarely find a member of staff in it. I did ask Scotrail directly at one of thier meet the manager session (under first group) they said they need a safety critical member of staff per set. Front set is the driver, the rear set is the gaurd. I don't work for them so I don't know if anything would happen if thier was an incident and the rear set was totally unstaffed.

 

[mde]

I literally just got on a 6 car 334 at DBC to see the conductor run past me from the back to the front set - it does happen.

DBC? What does that mean?

Dumbarton Central - I believe it's a CRS code.

The part about safety critical is interesting - I thought the staff on the 334s weren't guards…

 

[170401]

Dumbarton Central - I believe it's a CRS code.

The part about safety critical is interesting - I thought the staff on the 334s weren't guards…

They aren't, and they aren't affected by the imaginary rule either.