Scotrail Franchise - Abellio

[northwichcat]

Tony Miles has posted on wnxx that TPE have reached a solution regarding 170/3 replacement but aren't allowed to officially announce it yet. He's also said the full details of the Abellio Scotrail franchise will be unveiled once the contract is signed. I wonder if the 2 are related?

 

[Altnabreac]

Any word on Bannockburn aswell?

Bannockburn is in Stirling council area so comes under Tactran rather than SEStran.

It's still vaguely on the agenda but seems to be well behind other station proposals in Tactran that might be put forward for Scottish Stations Fund money.

Other proposals are:
Dundee West - relocating Invergowrie to a new site that can better serve Ninewells and the development sites in the west of the city as well as having a large new park and ride capacity.
Bridge of Earn / Oudenard - new station to support major new housing allocation.
Bridge of Allan - relocating the station 1km southwards to increase the pedestrian catchment area and support redevelopment of the Cornton Vale prison site and new housing development on the west side of the town.

Bannockburn is behind all 3 of these proposals in Tactrans priorities so I'd think its unlikely to get any funding in CP5.

 

[Butts]

And Advance First! Correct me if Im wrong, something ScotRail current don't bother with?

They are as rare as Hens Teeth !!

Anyone in their right mind will use East Coast wherever possible !!

 

[reb0118]

Bridge of Allan - relocating the station 1km southwards.....

That will be 1km further away from the Allan Water Cafe.

The best Fish 'n' Chips in Central Scotland!!

 

[Blindtraveler]

That will be 1km further away from the Allan Water Cafe.

The best Fish 'n' Chips in Central Scotland!!

Thanks for the tip! Must try it!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Tony Miles has posted on wnxx that TPE have reached a solution regarding 170/3 replacement but aren't allowed to officially announce it yet. He's also said the full details of the Abellio Scotrail franchise will be unveiled once the contract is signed. I wonder if the 2 are related?

If they are I'd say it involved tqe transfer of 170s south to TPE and another 2 or 3 loco hauled services, potentially on the busyest Inverness run? This would enable them to introduce a better qualitty experience before the HSTs come in↲

 

[ainsworth74]

Anyone in their right mind will use East Coast wherever possible !!

Though in future with Scotrail using HSTs (same type of train that currently run on East Coast north of Edinburgh) the difference in service might not be as great any more (probably part of Transport Scotland want more 'intercity' like trains). Though I don't anticipate that the service will be as high as East Coast but it should be considerably better than what's provided at present.

 

[Rhydgaled]

If they are I'd say it involved tqe transfer of 170s south to TPE and another 2 or 3 loco hauled services, potentially on the busyest Inverness run? This would enable them to introduce a better qualitty experience before the HSTs come in↲

What's the timescale for Chiltern taking the TPE 170s? If they don't need them before 2017/18, then the EGIP fleet (and perhaps the cascaded, refurbished, IC125s) will start appearing at ScotRail. Now that it seems to have been comfirmed that at least part of the 158 AND 156 fleets will be staying with ScotRail it seems more likely that 170s will be cascaded south.

 

[Blindtraveler]

well we dont know for certain what ratio of 156s and 158s are yet or indeed ie more than 1 class of sprinter will be retained but my money would be on 158s and 170s staying and 156s moving elsewhere to make major inroads to the Pacer Fleat.↲

 

[Rhydgaled]

well we dont know for certain what ratio of 156s and 158s are yet or indeed ie more than 1 class of sprinter will be retained but my money would be on 158s and 170s staying and 156s moving elsewhere to make major inroads to the Pacer Fleat.↲

See this page, confirms both 156s and 158s retained at ScotRail, but not how many. However, as they are keeping examples of both Sprinter classes, I think it makes the cascade of at least some 170s more likely.

 

[WatcherZero]

23% increase in carriages, so excluding Caledonian Sleeper.

Class 156 48x2
Class 158 48x2
Class 170 59x3
Class 314 16x3
Class 318 21x3
Class 320 22x3
Class 334 40x3
Class 380/0 22x3
Class 380/1 16x4

= 796 carriages 23% increase = 980

New stock

AT200 46x3
AT200 24x4
HST 27x5

(dependent on franchise extension)
AT200 10x4

Assuming only committed procurement in figure (though not unlike a politician to embellish) 369 more carriages.

796 + 369 - 980 = 185 carriages released

Now bit of margin for error and they could have included the 40 optional carriages in that tally but thats not a lot, its either all the old EMU's or all the 170's or if the 40 extras included as well its exactly the tally of all 170s + 314's.

 

[Class 170101]

Some 321s apparently appearing according to this thread (see the link attached to Post 57
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=106930&page=4

 

[backontrack]

THIS THREAD: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=107250

For talking about First Scotrail itself, and how well it has(n't) performed in the last 10 years.

(If of any use to the moderators/admins, maybe add to first post?)

 

[northwichcat]

What's the timescale for Chiltern taking the TPE 170s?

Chiltern signed a deal with Porterbrook with a start date of the end of the current TPE franchise, which is early next year. However, it's been agreed between TPE, Chiltern, DfT and Porterbrook that no 170s will leave TPE before the May 2015 timetable change and the option of Chiltern taking 170s in small batches will be explored.

 

[Altnabreac]

23% increase in carriages, so excluding Caledonian Sleeper.

Class 156 48x2
Class 158 48x2
Class 170 59x3
Class 314 16x3
Class 318 21x3
Class 320 22x3
Class 334 40x3
Class 380/0 22x3
Class 380/1 16x4

= 796 carriages 23% increase = 980

New stock

AT200 46x3
AT200 24x4
HST 27x5

(dependent on franchise extension)
AT200 10x4

Assuming only committed procurement in figure (though not unlike a politician to embellish) 369 more carriages.

796 + 369 - 980 = 185 carriages released

Now bit of margin for error and they could have included the 40 optional carriages in that tally but thats not a lot, its either all the old EMU's or all the 170's or if the 40 extras included as well its exactly the tally of all 170s + 314's.

Great post! Really starting to understand some of the details now.

If we add in the 7 x 4 Class 321s that seem to be coming as well (and I reckon the 40 optional will be included in the 23% increase number) that brings our carriages released to a grand total of 253 carriages.

I think we are now also fairly sure the 314s are going to be scrapped in 2017 or 2018 so we can definitely remove those 48 carriages. That leaves 205 to be cascaded from the other fleets.

I suspect we are looking increasingly like the entire Class 170 fleet will be released. The big question for 170s is still what will operate the Fife Circle and Edinburgh - Dundee semi fast services?

How many of the 48 x 2 car 158s are needed to operate Far North / Kyle / Inverness - Elgin / Edinburgh - Tweedbank / West Highland services?

Are there enough units left after those confirmed/suspected 158 routes to operate Fife Circle and Dundee and thus eliminate 170s entirely?

Perhaps not quite but there certainly won't be many 170s left in Scotland by 2019.

 

[Aictos]

If we add in the 7 x 4 Class 321s that seem to be coming as well (and I reckon the 40 optional will be included in the 23% increase number) that brings our carriages released to a grand total of 253 carriages.

What Class 321s moving to Scotland? Where are they coming from?

 

[Altnabreac]

What Class 321s moving to Scotland? Where are they coming from?

All we have for definite is this PowerPoint:
http://www.railforums.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=19989&d=1413654114

It states that 321s will be used on Glasgow Suburban Services but doesn't give more details than that.

The 7x4 car bit is speculation but seems to come from people in the know.

Given the 7 units London Midland seems the obvious source but again it's speculation.

As to where they will be used again it's speculation but Lanark - Glasgow Central High Level is one option.

 

[swt_passenger]

GN could just as easily release 7 x 321s. All of their 321s are ultimately released, but without the exact details of the timescales for GTR's internal cascades of 377s etc we'll not know for sure until it happens...

 

[clc]

Is it safe to say the new EMUs will not be running on the Airdrie-Bathgate line given the reference in the presentation to 'Glasgow suburban electric routes'?

 

[Eng274]

All we have for definite is this PowerPoint:
http://www.railforums.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=19989&d=1413654114

It states that 321s will be used on Glasgow Suburban Services but doesn't give more details than that.

The 7x4 car bit is speculation but seems to come from people in the know.

Given the 7 units London Midland seems the obvious source but again it's speculation.

As to where they will be used again it's speculation but Lanark - Glasgow Central High Level is one option.

Is moving the Lanark services to High level intended to allow diversion of 2tph to Whifflet via the newly electrified route via Bargeddie et al? Surprised if 4 car services will be used purely for the Lanark trips, they're barely busy enough for 3 car at the moment outwith the peak (which is usually 6 car anyway).

 

[Altnabreac]

Is moving the Lanark services to High level intended to allow diversion of 2tph to Whifflet via the newly electrified route via Bargeddie et al? Surprised if 4 car services will be used purely for the Lanark trips, they're barely busy enough for 3 car at the moment outwith the peak (which is usually 6 car anyway).

Lanark services are moving to High Level as of Decemer this year and as you say swapping with Whifflet ones.

Allows much faster journeys from Lanark, Carluke and Wishaw as all trains running via Shieldmuir and Bellshill. The Hamilton Circle service that did run to Lanark is now diverted to Cumbernauld instead.

Some reasons the Lanark route might suit 321s:
High Linespeeds
Self Contained service
Possible to cover current 6 car diagram with a 4 car 321?

Equally they could be used elsewhere.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Is it safe to say the new EMUs will not be running on the Airdrie-Bathgate line given the reference in the presentation to 'Glasgow suburban electric routes'?

I think Airdrie - Bathgate is essentially classified as a Glasgow suburban route that happens to extend to Edinburgh. Specifically in the tender the "Strathclyde Electrics" stock specification includes A2B.

If the new EMUs are based at Millerhill as seems likely it seems logical they would also work A2B and North Berwick services freeing up 334s and 380s for other Strathclyde services.

 

[clc]

I think Airdrie - Bathgate is essentially classified as a Glasgow suburban route that happens to extend to Edinburgh. Specifically in the tender the "Strathclyde Electrics" stock specification includes A2B.

If the new EMUs are based at Millerhill as seems likely it seems logical they would also work A2B and North Berwick services freeing up 334s and 380s for other Strathclyde services.

Another reason to think new EMUs are not going to the A2B line is found on the interactive map: http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk/map-scotrail-franchise-renewal-programme/

If you expand the 'Central Belt' section then under 'Line Improvements' click 'Glasgow South electric routes' it states:

"New replacement electric trains to be introduced during 2017/18"

The fact that it specifically refers to the South electric routes and makes no mention of the North electrics suggests no new trains for A2B.

 

[Starmill]

And Advance First! Correct me if Im wrong, something ScotRail current don't bother with?

I used one from Perth to Inverness a few weeks ago.

On an East Coast train? None show up in my search.

 

[Butts]

On an East Coast train? None show up in my search.

Try the Highland Chieftain

 

[Y961 XBU]

Just to make sure, is Scot Rail still known as Scot Rail or have the name changed?

 

[Starmill]

Try the Highland Chieftain

Hahah whops, for clarification:

No Soctrail First Advances show up in my search. Did you make your journey on an East Coast train?

 

[Y961 XBU]

Right thanks, i am currently making a paper list for Trains so i wanted to make sure i had the correct name for the firm

 

[Altnabreac]

Another reason to think new EMUs are not going to the A2B line is found on the interactive map: http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk/map-scotrail-franchise-renewal-programme/

If you expand the 'Central Belt' section then under 'Line Improvements' click 'Glasgow South electric routes' it states:

"New replacement electric trains to be introduced during 2017/18"

The fact that it specifically refers to the South electric routes and makes no mention of the North electrics suggests no new trains for A2B.

I've seen that but it seems very unlikely to me. (Especially as the map also had 17 spelling mistakes so it looks like it was cobbled together at the last minute).

I suspect "new" means "cascaded stock that isn't 314s".

Why would new stock be used on the route that has a much lower required specification when instead you can use 318s there saving yourself the need to put plug sockets etc into the 318s.

However there have been so many surprises from this franchise you can't rule anything out 100%.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The franchise contract does not appear to be signed yet, 14 days after the Transport Scotland announcement of the award to Abellio.
Do we know if there is a legal challenge?

 

[Butts]

A worrying thought (for me), does anyone think Abellio may rescind First Scotrails Policy of allowing smoking on Station Platforms

 

[Class 170101]

Its not Scotrail policy, its currently permitted in Scotland by law (unless at Edinburgh or Glasgow Stations as these are covered by sub-surface regulations as a result of the Kings Cross fire. It would more likely be the opposite if its like England to be Scotrail policy.