Scotrail Franchise - Abellio

[MidlandMainlie]

In that scenario would it not be better for Scotrail to take East Coasts HSTs then wait on the rest when wires are up?

I suppose it all demands on the leases, are the GW and EC HST's owned by the same company?

 

[SkinnyDave]

I suppose it all demands on the leases, are the GW and EC HST's owned by the same company?

Yeah I think both are leased from Angel trains

 

[najaB]

Yeah I think both are leased from Angel trains

I've read on here that FGW own some of their stock outright.

 

[SkinnyDave]

Yep they do own some ,Angel own 85 FGW Power cars according to their website and 23 East Coast power cars

 

[Failed Unit]

Travelling in today, I wonder how the will cope on special events with the loss of the 170s. Today I was left behind when the 0945 Glasgow - Edinburgh was just 3 coaches. It may be bad planning, it may be lack of sets (170432 damaged for one) but certainly 8 less will remove wiggle room.

 

[bnm]

I've read on here that FGW own some of their stock outright.

12 power cars and 42 Mk3s. That's 5x 8 car sets with spares.

Not owned by FGW though. Owned by First Rail Holdings Ltd, a subsidiary of FirstGroup PLC.

 

[47802]

I suppose it all demands on the leases, are the GW and EC HST's owned by the same company?

Presumably when we get the announcement next week about the FGW direct award and IEP's for the West Country and likely delivered before the FGW electric only IEP's and used temporary on the Bristol route that this speculation about HST's not being released in time will disappear.

 

[Ingleborough]

If the worst happens then why not send the first batch of IEP's to Vigin East Coast, who can then send their HST's to First Great Western who can then release HST's to Abellio Scotrail.

You need to get the EC sets ATP equipped for that to happen. Abellio are getting some Angel sets, 4 and 5 coaches with sufficient spares to strengthen in future to 2+6. If electrification or IEP is delayed Abellio has to sub lease back to FGW until it's all sorted.
Abellio has bigger worries. How to set up an economic production line to convert all the Mk3s to sliding doors and retention toilets. Surveys undertaken so far on the fleet show that BR jigs for the HST mk3s weren't quite set up in the same way across the batches. The LHCS mk3s had one long production run, the HSTs were ordered in batches and jigs were moved, disassembled and re-assembled several times. That has introduced problems trying to fit modern assemblies onto old structures. For example one crossmember in the frame at the vestibule end of HST mk3, at the point where metal has to be cut to install the door mechanism has been found to vary considerably. It can be anywhere within an 8 cm range. The difference having been made towards the middle of the vehicles. Even on the later TGS conversions, the variations are huge.
Not a problem with old 'jiggle them a bit' slam doors, but in todays laser guided steel cutting and assembling regime, it's like fitting brand new wings and engines to an old 1960 / 70s built Nimrod fuselage.
I've no doubt it will work out in the end, but not in the way originally planned.

 

[47802]

You need to get the EC sets ATP equipped for that to happen. Abellio are getting some Angel sets, 4 and 5 coaches with sufficient spares to strengthen in future to 2+6. If electrification or IEP is delayed Abellio has to sub lease back to FGW until it's all sorted.
Abellio has bigger worries. How to set up an economic production line to convert all the Mk3s to sliding doors and retention toilets. Surveys undertaken so far on the fleet show that BR jigs for the HST mk3s weren't quite set up in the same way across the batches. The LHCS mk3s had one long production run, the HSTs were ordered in batches and jigs were moved, disassembled and re-assembled several times. That has introduced problems trying to fit modern assemblies onto old structures. For example one crossmember in the frame at the vestibule end of HST mk3, at the point where metal has to be cut to install the door mechanism has been found to vary considerably. It can be anywhere within an 8 cm range. The difference having been made towards the middle of the vehicles. Even on the later TGS conversions, the variations are huge.
Not a problem with old 'jiggle them a bit' slam doors, but in todays laser guided steel cutting and assembling regime, it's like fitting brand new wings and engines to an old 1960 / 70s built Nimrod fuselage.
I've no doubt it will work out in the end, but not in the way originally planned.

Which why we should consigning these things to the scrap yard in my view, anyway clearly they going to happen as far as Scottish services are concerned, but it might make other TOC's think again about using them, I wonder if anybody will go for the alternate option of retaining the slam doors and door handle on the inside although I gather even this requires a significant change to the central locking system.

Out of interest do Abellio intend keeping the TGS or making some alternate train manager office in the buffet car perhaps?

 

[IanXC]

Surveys undertaken so far on the fleet show that BR jigs for the HST mk3s weren't quite set up in the same way across the batches.

How viable would it be to identify and use trailers all from the same batch/batches? Presumably by now they are spread across all the HST fleets, but I would have thought it could reduce some of the issues?

 

[theblackwatch]

How viable would it be to identify and use trailers all from the same batch/batches? Presumably by now they are spread across all the HST fleets, but I would have thought it could reduce some of the issues?

Certain batches are still largely with FGW and owned by Angel - namely the coaches from 253028-041 which were ordered as one large batch. Quite a few sets are made up almost entirely of coaches originally formed in these sets.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I understand Abellio will be signing the lease on the required FGW HSTs this week which means legally Scotrail can demand them in 2018 whether electrification is ready or not.

I understand there is agreement between all parties that the sets will not be released if the Great Western electrification has not made sufficient progress. This would presumably mean the 29 Class 170s due to go 'off lease' in 2018/19 being retained until such a time that the HSTs come up north (which would also have ramifications for any TOCs which negotiated to take these on).

 

[Carlisle]

I understand there is agreement between all parties that the sets will not be released if the Great Western electrification has not made sufficient progress. This would presumably mean the 29 Class 170s due to go 'off lease' in 2018/19 being retained until such a time that the HSTs come up north (which would also have ramifications for any TOCs which negotiated to take these on).

Of course , I can't really see the ROSCOs behaving in a ruthlessly commercial way with the TOCs and upsetting the various government departments that indirectly provide a fair amount of their income

 

[Chris125]

Which why we should consigning these things to the scrap yard in my view, anyway clearly they going to happen as far as Scottish services are concerned, but it might make other TOC's think again about using them, I wonder if anybody will go for the alternate option of retaining the slam doors and door handle on the inside although I gather even this requires a significant change to the central locking system.

Even if they decided against Chiltern-style doors, other options remain available - mk3s from 442s have already been suggested, but there will also be a large number of Mk4 vehicles available with few long term options as conventional LHCS.

 

[jonnysr]

The first Abellio branding has appeared already! It's on the giant posters in Queen St station advertising the Winchburgh tunnel closure.

 

[Sadsmileyface]

Looks like those who want a new ScotRail MD won't have long to wait.

 

[SkinnyDave]

Looks like those who want a new ScotRail MD won't have long to wait.

Cryptic? Do tell

 

[Sadsmileyface]

It's being mentioned in the press now so I suppose so- Phil Verster of NR London and North East.

What's not being mentioned is his likely start date: May. Either 1st or 31st, can't remember.

 

[MadCommuter]

http://m.scotsman.com/news/transport/scotrail-chief-steve-montgomery-to-quit-after-all-1-3728552

 

[ADRboy]

Surprised that was announced so soon!

 

[Sadsmileyface]

Not that I expect it to be in the press, but the remaining executive team may not be in those same roles by the end of the year. They all had to interview for their jobs a few months ago, but I'm made to understand that it's only till Septemberish time. Don't know exactly how true that is though.

 

[oldman]

Getting back to the things that really matter, the Scotsman has a sartorial story .

THOUSANDS of ScotRail staff have been told to snip off old logos from their uniforms when the franchise changes hands next week because new outfits won’t be ready in time.

Fortunately the union spokesmen have responded in their usual positive manner.

 

[po8crg]

Fortunately the union spokesmen have responded in their usual positive manner.

Let me guess: our members haven't been trained to use scissors and evil Abellio are putting them in danger by forcing them to use dangerous equipment without training?

 

[LowLevel]

It is stupid - no one cares which company is running the trains apart from the companies themselves. Chopping up bits of uniform is bizarre. Everywhere else it was just a new tie and badge until the rest of it appeared. I'm sure wearing a woolly hat inside out with the logo rubbing against your head feels lovely.

 

[387star]

Let me guess: our members haven't been trained to use scissors and evil Abellio are putting them in danger by forcing them to use dangerous equipment without training?

 

[sheeldz]

The first Abellio branding has appeared already! It's on the giant posters in Queen St station advertising the Winchburgh tunnel closure.

On a Central - Lanark 380 this morning there are new posters throughout the carriages detailing the Kids Go Free offer - same offer as FSR, but with a vastly different looking poster. Gone is the hand written font. I assume that's part of the new ASR branding?

I quite liked the FSR branding on the posters and such, so I'm sad to see it go.

 

[Chrism20]

Given the Scottish Government detail that the rolling stock is to be generically branded with only stickers for the operator which can be peeled off I'm surprised they haven't done the same with the uniforms and that the only branding on them is ScotRail rather than the operator.

It would certainly make things a lot easier in the long run.

 

[clc]

I was pleased to read this:

"Elaine Smith (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Scottish Labour): To ask the Scottish Government on which ScotRail routes the rolling stock is not fitted with effluent retention tanks.
(S4W-22745)
Keith Brown: The routes on which rolling stock which is not fitted with effluent retention tanks operate, according to the December 2013 rolling stock unit diagrams, are:

Glasgow Queen Street to Alloa, Oban, Fort William, Mallaig and Anniesland; Glasgow Central to Kilmarnock, East Kilbride, Stranraer, Dumfries, Carlisle; Edinburgh to Glasgow via Shotts; Edinburgh to Newcraighall; Edinburgh to Fife

From December 2017 there will be no ScotRail or Caledonian Sleeper franchise-operated rolling stock that discharges toilet effluent on to the track."

http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/p...&ReferenceNumbers=S4W-22745&ResultsPerPage=10

 

[Rhydgaled]

I was pleased to read this:

"Elaine Smith (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Scottish Labour): To ask the Scottish Government on which ScotRail routes the rolling stock is not fitted with effluent retention tanks.
(S4W-22745)
Keith Brown: The routes on which rolling stock which is not fitted with effluent retention tanks operate, according to the December 2013 rolling stock unit diagrams, are:

Glasgow Queen Street to Alloa, Oban, Fort William, Mallaig and Anniesland; Glasgow Central to Kilmarnock, East Kilbride, Stranraer, Dumfries, Carlisle; Edinburgh to Glasgow via Shotts; Edinburgh to Newcraighall; Edinburgh to Fife

From December 2017 there will be no ScotRail or Caledonian Sleeper franchise-operated rolling stock that discharges toilet effluent on to the track."

Given that Edinburgh to Aberdeen/Inverness is not listed above, I'm guessing the sleeper must already have retention tanks. What stock isn't equiped with tanks at the moment, just the class 156s?

Given the Scottish Government detail that the rolling stock is to be generically branded with only stickers for the operator which can be peeled off I'm surprised they haven't done the same with the uniforms and that the only branding on them is ScotRail rather than the operator.

It would certainly make things a lot easier in the long run.

That would seem to make sense. Do we know if the new uniforms will have Abellio on them or is it just a case of replacing First-branded uniforms with generic ones?

 

[me123]

Given that Edinburgh to Aberdeen/Inverness is not listed above, I'm guessing the sleeper must already have retention tanks. What stock isn't equiped with tanks at the moment, just the class 156s?

156s are the only rolling stock that fits those routes.

 

[Sadsmileyface]

Abellio didn't have uniforms in place because they wanted to consult with staff first on the subject of uniforms. Since staff have traditionally never been happy with uniforms, Abellio chose to postpone the introduction until they could gather feedback that could be used to stop further complaining.

Of course, now the staff are unhappy that they have to cut a few labels off, some saying they should be paid overtime for it, others claiming they shouldn't do it, and others saying that this is an outrage and the union won't stand for it.

Then there's the ones who took two minutes to do it like big boys and girls.