ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[Highland37]

I may have missed it, but am I right in thinking we have no idea when the second set may appear never mind the rest?

 

[jingsmonty]

I may have missed it, but am I right in thinking we have no idea when the second set may appear never mind the rest?

Seems to be all quiet - we really need ALL of the refurbished sets ASAP....

 

[Highland37]

Painful. Has there been a slower "refurbishment" ever delivered? Norris McWhirter must be interested in this one.

 

[chuff chuff]

Hope is the word used when the expectation of another refurbished set before December timetable.

 

[Mingulay]

Hope is the word used when the expectation of another refurbished set before December timetable.

So that would be 2 out of how many ?

 

[kje7812]

So that would be 2 out of how many ?

26 sets (I think) when all are done.
We may be waiting some time...

 

[jopsuk]

And being done along side the 11 GWR (1 delivered) and 5 Cross Country (1 done) sets...

 

[Highland37]

Ok, unexpected corrosion but there is more to this. Wabtec are painfully slow.

 

[Mingulay]

26 sets (I think) when all are done.
We may be waiting some time...

I assume at some point this contract will be terminated as unworkable and they will settle for far fewer refurbished sets and just tart up the remaining ones and paint it and the trains as a success story !

By any standards of delivery of a project, this must be judged a failure , regardless of where the blame lies, shame as the one delivered looks good .

 

[Mingulay]

Ok, unexpected corrosion but there is more to this. Wabtec are painfully slow.

unexpected corrosion in a 40 year old metal structure operated in the wet uk ?

I have previously suggested piloting a few conversions before committing to delivery contracts , but I was shot down in flames as a daft notion

 

[Highland37]

That is effectively what is happening but Wabtec have only delivered one set. What ever title is applied to that is irrelevant.

It would have been better to order 68s and Mk5s. That is off topic though.

I really hope they sort out the issues they are having. There isn't even any hope of information never mind the second set appearing some time this century.

 

[InOban]

I think it's been reported several times that Wabtec lost a lot of skilled staff to the nice new IET depot and have been unable to recruit replacements. From the reports on the one delivered set, they have produced a quality product, and I would rather they took their time, and maintained that standard, than cut corners to rush them out.

 

[Mordac]

I think it's been reported several times that Wabtec lost a lot of skilled staff to the nice new IET depot and have been unable to recruit replacements. From the reports on the one delivered set, they have produced a quality product, and I would rather they took their time, and maintained that standard, than cut corners to rush them out.

While it's only rumours, it's been reported elsewhere that CrossCountry initially had to send their set back because of it not being up to scratch. Imagine worksmanship so shoddy it can't meet AXC standards....

 

[43096]

While it's only rumours, it's been reported elsewhere that CrossCountry initially had to send their set back because of it not being up to scratch. Imagine worksmanship so shoddy it can't meet AXC standards....

XC set has not been back to Wabtec.

 

[scotraildriver]

While it's only rumours, it's been reported elsewhere that CrossCountry initially had to send their set back because of it not being up to scratch. Imagine worksmanship so shoddy it can't meet AXC standards....

It's in service so clearly hadn't been sent back.

 

[Highland37]

I think it's been reported several times that Wabtec lost a lot of skilled staff to the nice new IET depot and have been unable to recruit replacements. From the reports on the one delivered set, they have produced a quality product, and I would rather they took their time, and maintained that standard, than cut corners to rush them out.

Yes, and is it true that they have lost *a lot* of staff? Why are they losing staff like that. Doesn't bode well.

I wouldn't rather they took their time. I would rather they delivered the product as agreed and if they can't, they sub contract or find another way. At the current rate of delivery the HSTs will be 50 years old before they fully enter service with Scotrail.

 

[kje7812]

While it's only rumours, it's been reported elsewhere that CrossCountry initially had to send their set back because of it not being up to scratch. Imagine worksmanship so shoddy it can't meet AXC standards....

IIRC it was that XC didn't accept it and asked for changes before they took it, rather than sending it back. Or that was what was said on a thread on this forum...

 

[The_Engineer]

It's in service so clearly hadn't been sent back.

Yes indeed. It got delayed by not passing a first final inspection in Wabtec, reported somewhere on this forum. All snags were rectified, and it passed a second inspection OK before delivery...……. That happens on any project at times, anywhere.

 

[Northhighland]

I think it's been reported several times that Wabtec lost a lot of skilled staff to the nice new IET depot and have been unable to recruit replacements. From the reports on the one delivered set, they have produced a quality product, and I would rather they took their time, and maintained that standard, than cut corners to rush them out.

Really not an excuse after this amount of time. If that is still the reason given for non delivery of the contract we need a plan B because if they haven’t recruited by now it is unlikely they will be able to recruit. So there must be others that can do a fabrication job like that. Let’s be honest as an Engineering chalke gd there will be others capable of doing that.

 

[jingsmonty]

Really not an excuse after this amount of time. If that is still the reason given for non delivery of the contract we need a plan B because if they haven’t recruited by now it is unlikely they will be able to recruit. So there must be others that can do a fabrication job like that. Let’s be honest as an Engineering chalke gd there will be others capable of doing that.

As others on here have said, why has the work not been transferred to the Wabtec site in Kilmarnock? It's not like they don't know how to refurbish a Mk3!

Wabtec must be in a serious breach of contract situation over this - I suspect we will hear a lot more about this in the future, but nothing much just now.

 

[Chrism20]

As others on here have said, why has the work not been transferred to the Wabtec site in Kilmarnock? It's not like they don't know how to refurbish a Mk3!

Wabtec must be in a serious breach of contract situation over this - I suspect we will hear a lot more about this in the future, but nothing much just now.

I strongly suspect given the amount of bad luck ScotRail have had with the introduction of other rolling stock and the severe lack of it going forward if Wabtec were in breach of anything they would have been all over it by now in a desperate attempt to show action.

Sounds like Wabtec have "Covered their arse" with the contract. They will also have a duty of care not to release a vehicle that isn't roadworthy and significant corrosion probably drops a vehicle into that category immediately.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Really not an excuse after this amount of time. If that is still the reason given for non delivery of the contract we need a plan B because if they haven’t recruited by now it is unlikely they will be able to recruit. So there must be others that can do a fabrication job like that. Let’s be honest as an Engineering chalke gd there will be others capable of doing that.

It is an excuse, this country has some serious shortfalls in staff types required for this sort of work, as it does in general across the engineering sector. So to lose loads of staff can be terminal. The Hitachi depot with a massive government contract can probably pay better with newer facilities too.

Recruitment is very difficult at the moment with the usual backfall of EU workforce becoming harder to recruit from with the current uncertainty. It still happens but the numbers are not as high as they once were.

 

[jingsmonty]

It is an excuse, this country has some serious shortfalls in staff types required for this sort of work, as it does in general across the engineering sector. So to lose loads of staff can be terminal. The Hitachi depot with a massive government contract can probably pay better with newer facilities too.

Recruitment is very difficult at the moment with the usual backfall of EU workforce becoming harder to recruit from with the current uncertainty. It still happens but the numbers are not as high as they once were.

I'm tempted to get political here, but I'll resist! Fair points, but, like I said, couldn't Wabtec Kilmarnock take on some of this work? I'm sure there's a logical reason why not, but seems to me sense to me. Or, even, Wabtec subcontracting the work? The perspective is that there just doesn't seem to be any urgency on Wabtec's part to get this work done, which I'm sure isn't the case! Anyway, I'm sure Scotrail are regularly 'on their case'...

My only hope (probably forlorn) is that as more coaches are refurbished, that the experience gained & the issues understood, that the coaches will go through quicker - I know this was the case when GNER (back in the day) were carrying out the 'Mallard' refurbishment on the Mk4s

 

[YorkshireBear]

I'm tempted to get political here, but I'll resist! Fair points, but, like I said, couldn't Wabtec Kilmarnock take on some of this work? I'm sure there's a logical reason why not, but seems to me sense to me. Or, even, Wabtec subcontracting the work? The perspective is that there just doesn't seem to be any urgency on Wabtec's part to get this work done, which I'm sure isn't the case! Anyway, I'm sure Scotrail are regularly 'on their case'...

My only hope (probably forlorn) is that as more coaches are refurbished, that the experience gained & the issues understood, that the coaches will go through quicker - I know this was the case when GNER (back in the day) were carrying out the 'Mallard' refurbishment on the Mk4s

Do we know the Wabtec Kilmarnock workload? If they had no work I am certain they would already be doing it.

 

[JModulo]

My only hope (probably forlorn) is that as more coaches are refurbished, that the experience gained & the issues understood, that the coaches will go through quicker - I know this was the case when GNER (back in the day) were carrying out the 'Mallard' refurbishment on the Mk4s

It seems to be the case with other refurb projects (Scotrail 156s) albeit not as major as the HST program. As far as I'm aware Wabtec Kilmarnock is also pretty busy / full just now with other jobs so I doubt sending the MK3s there would be any quicker.

 

[gsnedders]

It seems to be the case with other refurb projects (Scotrail 156s) albeit not as major as the HST program. As far as I'm aware Wabtec Kilmarnock is also pretty busy / full just now with other jobs so I doubt sending the MK3s there would be any quicker.

This is my understanding too. Kilmarnock is pretty busy, and won't have the capacity to take on the work.

As for subcontracting, there's a question of where could they subcontract the work.

 

[Northhighland]

This work is mainly fabrication and electrical work. Certainly experience of the stock would be a great advantage, but honestly there are fabrication companies all over the UK who undertake complex tasks every day. We have companies that build oil rigs, nuclear plants, pressure vessels, power stations modifying a coach is something they could do. Might take them a bit longer the first time but they would soon get up to speed.

There are labour shortages in parts of the UK, but other areas not so much a problem. There seems to be an insular approach to this, if the work needs done and Wabtec cannot do it then someone else needs to. Who knows might find someone who can do it quicker and better. Certainly wont know if it isn't tried.

 

[Highland37]

Fully agree with the above. There are many other areas of engineering that are more complex than the HST refurbishment.

Maybe Wabtec is just rubbish to work for and their staff aren't very motivated. Certainly any employer and customer should be very concerned if a company is losing lots of staff to its competitors.

 

[380101]

I'm tempted to get political here, but I'll resist! Fair points, but, like I said, couldn't Wabtec Kilmarnock take on some of this work? I'm sure there's a logical reason why not, but seems to me sense to me. Or, even, Wabtec subcontracting the work? The perspective is that there just doesn't seem to be any urgency on Wabtec's part to get this work done, which I'm sure isn't the case! Anyway, I'm sure Scotrail are regularly 'on their case'...

My only hope (probably forlorn) is that as more coaches are refurbished, that the experience gained & the issues understood, that the coaches will go through quicker - I know this was the case when GNER (back in the day) were carrying out the 'Mallard' refurbishment on the Mk4s

Wabtec Kilmarnock is full with the ongoing conversions of the 321 EMUs to 320s for ScotRail. Their neighbours across the track, Brodies, are full with dodgy Mk5 sleeper coaches, Northern Rail refurbs and also the ongoing maintenance contract of Caledonian sleeper Mk3 coaches. So unlikely to see the HST mk3 coach conversions being done up here and I doubt they'll sub the work out to the likes of Springburn as their standard of work is abysmal.

 

[northernbelle]

While it's only rumours, it's been reported elsewhere that CrossCountry initially had to send their set back because of it not being up to scratch. Imagine worksmanship so shoddy it can't meet AXC standards....

The XC set is currently in service as a 6 car rake, one coach having been removed due to a defect.

The GWR rake is out of service today due to a fault.

Not sure how the Scotrail set is doing today after its wobbly start.