ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[jingsmonty]

The Aberdeen-Inverness line is limited to six vehicles by Elgin station - I believe that the platform is just barely long enough for 6x23m without overhangs. If Scotrail are planning to run 2+5 HSTs over that route, platform length will presumably be an issue as I don't believe power cars are allowed to be off the platform.

Elgin station platforms were lengthened during the recent resignalling - no issues with 5+2 HSTs. Only station with short platforms on the A2I line now is Insch, which, I'd think is being sorted during the current blockade

 

[jingsmonty]

Is this a new restriction? They certainly are off the platform at other stations. Have HSTs operated over the route before (and therefore have grandfather rights)?

Example: East Coast HST standing at Inverkeithing: https://www.railscot.co.uk/img/31/671/

You're possibly correct about the restriction on the power car not being off the platform - I think this is more to do with minimising 'stop short' risks when driving different tractions, rather than an operational thing.

For example, Dalwhinnie Up platform can take a 4+2 HST, if you stop the leading power car well off the platform (I only know this, as it's been tried with the training train - NOT with a passenger service!), but the HST stop board is on the platform & one door working applies.

 

[jingsmonty]

With the stand off from the buffers, platforms 3 and 4 will be quite tight as the starting signal is at the top of the ramp.

Yes. It's so tight that it doesn't work....

 

[jingsmonty]

If you mean on Inverness-Aberdeen, I'm sure the Chieftain has run via Elgin on Sundays in the past.

Yes it did - back in BR days, during the 1980s. Some of the stop boards are still there

 

[najaB]

For example, Dalwhinnie Up platform can take a 4+2 HST, if you stop the leading power car well off the platform (I only know this, as it's been tried with the training train - NOT with a passenger service!), but the HST stop board is on the platform & one door working applies.

In other places (e.g. at Inverkething) they just tell passengers not to try and alight from coach B and to use the doors in coach C instead. Plus, there are (were?) these signs at places like Pitlochry: https://www.railscot.co.uk/img/63/988/

 

[jingsmonty]

In other places (e.g. at Inverkething) they just tell passengers not to try and alight from coach B and to use the doors in coach C instead. Plus, there are (were?) these signs at places like Pitlochry: https://www.railscot.co.uk/img/63/988/

On Scotrail, it's one door working if the whole length of the yrain doesn't fit onto the platform. LNER & other TOCs may be slightly different (using Selective door opening, for example).

Yes, I remember those signs at Pitlochry too!

 

[scotrail158713]

Agree. Qudos to LNER for that - would Scotrail do the same? I'd like to think so....

Well Scotrail took a 9-car load of passengers on to a single 170 recently. That didn’t seem to go well.
Scotrail passengers being put on an LNER service doesn’t result in as severe overcrowding as it does the other way round.

 

[jingsmonty]

Well Scotrail took a 9-car load of passengers on to a single 170 recently. That didn’t seem to go well.
Scotrail passengers being put on an LNER service doesn’t result in as severe overcrowding as it does the other way round.

Not quite the same thing though, is it? That was just an LNER train terminating short & Scotrail agreeing ticket acceptance - not really the same as specially stopping a train en route

 

[najaB]

On Scotrail, it's one door working if the whole length of the yrain doesn't fit onto the platform. LNER & other TOCs may be slightly different (using Selective door opening, for example).

LNER don't have SDO on their stock, they just expect passengers to demonstrate common sense (I know!). Ironically, the GWR sets are fitted with a form of SDO - I believe that from each panel the guard can release 'All doors', 'All ahead' and 'All behind'.

 

[pt_mad]

Did the 1602 off Aberdeen to Edinburgh and I must admit there were people standing after Leuchars down to Haymarket. Fair enough Fridays will be busier than in the week I expect. But if they're getting busy now they may need extra coaches longer term.

 

[najaB]

Did the 1602 off Aberdeen to Edinburgh and I must admit there were people standing after Leuchars down to Haymarket. Fair enough Fridays will be busier than in the week I expect. But if they're getting busy now they may need extra coaches longer term.

Well, the plan is for all the Aberdeen-Edinburgh services to be operated by 2+5 and for a limited number of 2+6 sets (at least two, possibly more).

 

[hexagon789]

Yes it did - back in BR days, during the 1980s. Some of the stop boards are still there

I think it was a photo, the caption of which said that the Highland Mainline was closed on Sunday mornings and so the Chieftain was usually routed via Elgin.

 

[hexagon789]

Well, the plan is for all the Aberdeen-Edinburgh services to be operated by 2+5 and for a limited number of 2+6 sets (at least two, possibly more).

I wonder if now all the sets are going to be 2+5, if we will see more 2+6 in the future.

 

[43096]

LNER don't have SDO on their stock, they just expect passengers to demonstrate common sense (I know!). Ironically, the GWR sets are fitted with a form of SDO - I believe that from each panel the guard can release 'All doors', 'All ahead' and 'All behind'.

Correct. The SDO is a pretty straight forward system that ought to be easy to train staff on. There isn’t really a good reason why ScotRail aren’t using it.

 

[Highlandspring]

...other than an extreme case of corporate inertia which is all-pervasive in the company from top to bottom.

 

[Highland37]

My partner and daughter headed south from Inverness this evening. No HST in sight and standing from the first stop onwards.

 

[DannyMich2018]

So what sort of penalty exits here for Wabtec/ScotRail when the end of the year comes?

I don't expect any more than another 4 or 5 sets to be delivered by then.

2 were done last year and just 3 so far this year (in 6 months) so I'd be surprised if we get into double figures....

 

[Highland37]

I agree. The abysmal management, abysmal wabtec and the public lose out. The cycle spaces fiasco is so indicative of the whole programme. Slow, poorly delivered and in denial.

 

[hexagon789]

Correct. The SDO is a pretty straight forward system that ought to be easy to train staff on. There isn’t really a good reason why ScotRail aren’t using it.

Are the refurbs equipped with it on the power doors?

 

[chuff chuff]

No.....

 

[hexagon789]

No.....

In that case...why not? Aren't most modern EMU/DMU designs so-equipped?

 

[chuff chuff]

Just don't think scotrail are a fan of this method of working.

 

[InOban]

AIRC the 380s on the Ayrshire services use SDO.

 

[JLUK144]

Excuse my ignorance but what exactly is SDO?

 

[Brissle Girl]

Selective door opening.

So the fifth set moved north on May 27th, over a month ago. It doesn't seem like there is much sign of the progress speeding up is there?

 

[gsnedders]

AIRC the 380s on the Ayrshire services use SDO.

And IIRC the 385s are so fitted so they can if they need to make an extra stop or similar.

 

[hexagon789]

Just don't think scotrail are a fan of this method of working.

It does seem that way, yet you still get the incessant announcements about short platforms on the 380s.

So the fifth set moved north on May 27th, over a month ago. It doesn't seem like there is much sign of the progress speeding up is there?

Not that I've seen, seems pretty much as ever really.

 

[jingsmonty]

LNER don't have SDO on their stock, they just expect passengers to demonstrate common sense (I know!). Ironically, the GWR sets are fitted with a form of SDO - I believe that from each panel the guard can release 'All doors', 'All ahead' and 'All behind'.

I'm suprised the ORR allow that from LNER, to be honest! Manual SDO (as opposed to the GPS system on 380s) has always been a 'no no' with Scotrail

 

[Highland37]

Can we keep on topic please? LNER doors and 385s are not the topic here.

 

[jingsmonty]

Excuse my ignorance but what exactly is SDO?

SDO = Selective Door Opening. Basically, allows some carriage doors to be opened, but not all (for short platforms). It's not something I've any experience with, but basically, I think it allows doors to be opened from the active panel to all doors to the rear, or the active panel to all doors to the front.

Scotrail use 'One Door Operation' for short platforms instead - basically, the Conductor will open their 'Local Door' and that's it. There's definetly less scope for incidents, although it's only really suitable for stations with small traffic levels (Dalwhinnie springs to mind). It's used at Beauly, Conon Bridge, Attadale & Duncraig (request only for both). Possibly some on the West Highland Line too, I think?