ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[haggishunter]

Well that was an unexpected surprise on a refurb HST from Aberdeen heading to Inverness. Compared to the utter wreck of a 170 going the other way, useless seatback tables, barely big enough for a coffee and a Kit Kat, most sloping down too much for a coffee anyway, no power sockets, no wifi, broken accessible toilet and a big queue for the working one, no heating it seemed making the mid wide carriage doors even more intolerable, its hard to grasp these are both services provided by the same company on the same route on the same day!

 

[BRX]

A little disappointed to report today's 1508 GLQ to Inverness is a 170. Thankfully not too busy though.

 

[Paul Kerr]

Well that was an unexpected surprise on a refurb HST from Aberdeen heading to Inverness. Compared to the utter wreck of a 170 going the other way, useless seatback tables, barely big enough for a coffee and a Kit Kat, most sloping down too much for a coffee anyway, no power sockets, no wifi, broken accessible toilet and a big queue for the working one, no heating it seemed making the mid wide carriage doors even more intolerable, its hard to grasp these are both services provided by the same company on the same route on the same day!

So I assume you're a fan of the refurbs then?

 

[Highland37]

A little disappointed to report today's 1508 GLQ to Inverness is a 170. Thankfully not too busy though.

The refurb set must have failed then as it was scheduled to be one. I note the latest data from MR shows the Scotrail HSTs as being pretty unreliable.

 

[Paul Kerr]

The refurb set must have failed then as it was scheduled to be one. I note the latest data from MR shows the Scotrail HSTs as being pretty unreliable.

Can you share the data with us? What time period did it cover?

 

[Highland37]

My first data are what I saw in Facebook this morning, thus:

43012 HA21 43175 - SR REFURB
1T98 08:45 Inverness Glasgow QS 12:07
1H15 15:08 Glasgow QS Inverness 18:26
1B44 18:53 Inverness Edinburgh 22:23

From the above it is now a 170. I will confirm, if free, later on when I actually see it but there is no reason to doubt the above post.

Secondly, the magazine Modern Railways quotes 7,803 MTIN and 6,469 average, so declining. This figure is below the GWR one, although not by much and the trend in the table is that newer stock is more reliable. The anomaly is that newer stock has similar poor reliability to Scotrail HSTs when first introduced but climbs after that. The data are quoted for 2019-2020, whatever that means.

 

[BRX]

The refurb set must have failed then as it was scheduled to be one. I note the latest data from MR shows the Scotrail HSTs as being pretty unreliable.

According to scotrail twitter this morning, it wasn't down as a refurb. I was however hoping it would be an hst.

 

[Highland37]

Wow, that's even worse. Why can't they actually use these sets?

 

[BRX]

Can you share the data with us? What time period did it cover?

https://twitter.com/AlexHynes/status/1209470670377279489?s=20

 

[Highland37]

Thanks. That is the table I was referring to. Funnily enough it shows buying new stock leads to a more reliable service.

 

[BRX]

Wow, that's even worse. Why can't they actually use these sets?

I don't know, but the previous leg of my journey was from manchester to glasgow with TPE on what 'should' have been a new 397. Instead it was a crowded 350 with mid carriage doors letting the cold in at every stop, and cramped seating that might be appropriate for a commuter run but not for an intercity journey. Lots of people with reservations but none identified on the seats with predictable results.

During the journey I noted several 397s parked up in sidings outside manchester and glasgow.

The similarities with the scotrail/HST situation are quite striking. I mention this for the benefit of those who feel the problems are all down to refurbing HSTs instead of going for new stock.

 

[BRX]

Thanks. That is the table I was referring to. Funnily enough it shows buying new stock leads to a more reliable service.

Not really. Note the GWR short HSTs - the moving annual average is similar to the scotrail ones. But what they just label as MTIN (I assume this is measured over a shorter and more recent period) is massively better, in the top three on the whole table, and better by more than a factor of two compared to many of the 'new' types listed. I may be misunderstanding what the figures mean though.

 

[Paul Kerr]

Thanks. That is the table I was referring to. Funnily enough it shows buying new stock leads to a more reliable service.

Not disagreeing with you on your point about new stock; however a couple of points based on the data:

1. The unit mileage for the ScotRail HST sets is still pretty low and much lower than the Class 385s and IETs. I think we need a bit more data as more refurbs enter service. When the accrued mileage is pretty low the data is easily skewed by a failure (or lack of).
2. It was interesting to note that the MTIN trend for the ScotRail sets appears to be heading in the right direction. The average MTIN for the period was 7,803 vs a 2019-20 average of 6,803. Again, early days, but with the better quality of refurbs being delivered by Wabtec and mods to remove the temperamental ATP speedometers on the power cars hopefully this upwards trend will continue.

As the crews get to grips with the HSTs and more sets are delivered, it will be interesting to see what the next data set looks like.

 

[Highland37]

What more data do you need? They are often, anecdotally and through personal experience, not able to start a diagram. The available data has been presented for everyone to see.

It's not "early days" by any means. Being charitable, if it is early days, the only two reasons are that Wabtec has been so slow and Scotrail so poor at using the little they have. This project has been marked by broken promises and forecasts.

 

[InOban]

I can confirm that the list of refurb services tweeted by ScotRail this morning included no Glasgow to Inverness services, although there were two southbound ones.
BTW, set 10, which I pictured at Waverley on Saturday, should have come up on Thu, but failed before departure.

 

[Paul Kerr]

What more data do you need? They are often, anecdotally and through personal experience, not able to start a diagram. The available data has been presented for everyone to see.

It's not "early days" by any means. Being charitable, if it is early days, the only two reasons are that Wabtec has been so slow and Scotrail so poor at using the little they have. This project has been marked by broken promises and forecasts.

As @43096 has pointed out on several occasions, availability and reliability are 2 different things. The set's availability is what determines whether it starts a diagram. Availability has been poor, but that does not mean the set has failed; as has also been pointed out the availability on new stock has also been very poor (e.g. the Class 397s and 755s). The key data is the failure rate once the sets are available for their diagrams. The MTIN data is better than the rolling average for this period; if that trend continues it will show that ScotRail are getting to grips with the sets.

I agree that the project has been poorly managed and delivered, but we would likely be in the same boat with had other stock been chosen as well.

 

[Dood75]

Definitely not 42251 - that’s now 48135 with GWR.

Cheers...looked back at my scribbles and it 42360 I was mixing up what I had written and thought was 42380.....must have remembered 42251 when I was trying to read what turned out to be 42551!!!

 

[BRX]

I can report that today's 1654 arrival in Inverness from edinburgh was a classic HST... With catering trolley out of action. Other than that a full house of 158s and 170s at the station.

 

[Highland37]

As @43096

I agree that the project has been poorly managed and delivered, but we would likely be in the same boat with had other stock been chosen as well.

Do the data support that view? Not really I think.

 

[najaB]

Do the data support that view? Not really I think.

If memory serves correctly, two of the most recent new-build fleets for Scotrail (the 380s and the 395s) had not insignificant delays to their service introduction. So there's history of new-build going wrong.

 

[PG]

Do the data support that view? Not really I think.

I also suggest new stock would likely have had delays - TPE and Northern have both had problems.

 

[BRX]

Do the data support that view? .

Yes, they do!

 

[Paul Kerr]

Do the data support that view? Not really I think.

Really? Let's revise the list (and these are only the ones that come to mind without doing some digging into delivery dates).

1. GWR Class 800/802 IETs- delayed and considerable teething problems when they were introduced. There was also the disastrous cost and schedule overrun for the GWML electrification project (even still it's not done yet!). Indeed that is one reason why the HSTs are late coming to ScotRail as the GWR HSTs could not be released in time.
2. LNER Class 801 Azumas- delayed, and then when they were delivered Network Rail found they couldn't even run north of Doncaster for a considerable length of time due to signal systems interference. They're also now causing problems north of Morpeth due to their higher power draw, which is why a disproportionately high number of Edinburgh services are still rostered for Class 91 and MkIV sets.
3. Other operators' Class 802 bimodes (e.g. Hull Trains)- delayed. They had to hire in HSTs to cover the shortfall.
4. TPE Mk 5 sets- considerable delays and they are now suffering from poor availability. No complaints about the locomotives at least...
5. TPE bimodes- delayed, poor availability and oh btw they have to run on snail-slow diesel power north of Morpeth due to capacity issues drawing power from the 25kV OHL.
6. Anglia class 755 bimodes- delayed.
7. ScotRail Class 385 EMUs- manufacturing schedule delays and then an expensive and lengthy post-delivery delay due to to retrofitting new windscreens that didn't form a "ghost" image of each signal in the cab when the train was approaching.
8. ScotRail Class 380s- delayed (can't remember offhand what the issues were here but it was not pretty, I remember that!)

So yes the data does support my observation. It doesn't matter whether the stock is new or 40 years old; when it's introduced onto new routes there are invariably teething problems and it takes time and teamwork to fix them, not to mention hiring in other trains to cover the shortfall until the problems are resolved.

 

[InOban]

And you haven't even mentioned the 331s!

 

[matt]

Just a reminder this thread is for the ScotRail HSTs, there are plenty of other threads to discuss the introduction of new trains

 

[Highland37]

Really? Let's revise the list (and these are only the ones that come to mind without doing some digging into delivery dates).



1. GWR Class 800/802 IETs- delayed and considerable teething problems when they were introduced. There was also the disastrous cost and schedule overrun for the GWML electrification project (even still it's not done yet!). Indeed that is one reason why the HSTs are late coming to ScotRail as the GWR HSTs could not be released in time.
2. LNER Class 801 Azumas- delayed, and then when they were delivered Network Rail found they couldn't even run north of Doncaster for a considerable length of time due to signal systems interference. They're also now causing problems north of Morpeth due to their higher power draw, which is why a disproportionately high number of Edinburgh services are still rostered for Class 91 and MkIV sets.
3. Other operators' Class 802 bimodes (e.g. Hull Trains)- delayed. They had to hire in HSTs to cover the shortfall.
4. TPE Mk 5 sets- considerable delays and they are now suffering from poor availability. No complaints about the locomotives at least...
5. TPE bimodes- delayed, poor availability and oh btw they have to run on snail-slow diesel power north of Morpeth due to capacity issues drawing power from the 25kV OHL.
6. Anglia class 755 bimodes- delayed.
7. ScotRail Class 385 EMUs- manufacturing schedule delays and then an expensive and lengthy post-delivery delay due to to retrofitting new windscreens that didn't form a "ghost" image of each signal in the cab when the train was approaching.
8. ScotRail Class 380s- delayed (can't remember offhand what the issues were here but it was not pretty, I remember that!)

So yes the data does support my observation. It doesn't matter whether the stock is new or 40 years old; when it's introduced onto new routes there are invariably teething problems and it takes time and teamwork to fix them, not to mention hiring in other trains to cover the shortfall until the problems are resolved.

I think you are confusing data with your opinion. Why do you think operators are ordering new stock?

Let's remember that after huge delays, the majority of ScotRail intercity services are still not scheduled, never mind operated, by HSTs.

Do you think that the new fleets will remain at the same MTIN as the HSTs? No. They will become more reliable. The same is not true of the HSTs which will remain less reliable than the stock they are replacing.

There is no option now. Ancient trains, ancient infrastructure, ancient thinking.

 

[Speed43125]

I think you are confusing data with your opinion. Why do you think operators are ordering new stock?

Let's remember that after huge delays, the majority of ScotRail intercity services are still not scheduled, never mind operated, by HSTs.

Do you think that the new fleets will remain at the same MTIN as the HSTs? No. They will become more reliable. The same is not true of the HSTs which will remain less reliable than the stock they are replacing.

There is no option now. Ancient trains, ancient infrastructure, ancient thinking.

On the contrary it's very moden thinking to decide passengers do prefer LHCS to underfloor.
HSTs as well ARE becoming more reliable. The 'manufacturer' is just really slow 'building' the stock, and as such it's taking a long time to get used to the new stock which is all new to scotrail crews and fitters. This is a far cheaper option, we should not expect Desiro numbers, think of it more like the cheaper CAF stuff.
HSTs are liked and even though you talk of trains failing to complete diagrams, increasing numbers are fulfilled by HSTs to general happiness to the public.
As has been discussed on the end of franchise thread, there is not going to be money to replace them anytime soon. STOP kicking the dead horse. HSTs have been picking up and Wabtec are no doubt going to increase output soon. They are perfectly fine trains as demonstrated by XC for example. Staff need time. It's a completely different piece of kit to a Sprinter or juniper so it's taking a proportionally large time to get used to the stuff.

Operators are ordering new stock for two main reasons: Very low interest rates at the moment. high cost of retrofitting due to PRM regulations.
Huge delays are in fact in no small part caused by GWR IETs being delayed. Stop repeating the same rubbish. We know they've not been flawless, but they've not been nearly as bad as some posters here seem to suggest.

 

[Highland37]

It's you that are getting confused. I have not even mentioned under floor engines and agree with you on that. Your entire reply is constructed on an incorrect assumption.

Right now I am sitting in Queen Street waiting for the train to Inverness. Will an HST make it? Time will tell.

It's much quieter here without the din and smoke from diesels.

 

[Highland37]

It's a 170. The HST failed to appear so it's ScotRail standard filth, knackered seats and no power sockets.

Let's see if an HST can make it out of bed from Perth onwards.

 

[Speed43125]

It's you that are getting confused. I have not even mentioned under floor engines and agree with you on that. Your entire reply is constructed on an incorrect assumption.

Okay. Please explain how the program is 'Ancient Thinking' then. Carry on by explaining what I am confused about, and then maybe what my incorrect assumption was, that TS were not willing to spend much more than this was projected to cost? that the trains are actually a step down? that we should be expecting 385 level reliability for a fraction of the cost for a far more capable train?

It's much quieter here without the din and smoke from diesels.

If you can come up with a way to get a non-diesel powered train to travel from GLQ - STG on non-diesel then travel on diesel for the rest of the journey for a similar cost and with similar performance to the HST program I'm all ears.
I think we would all agree that complaining that they are running a diesel train on a line that is famed for it's unelectrified steep incline is hardly productive is it?
Are you trying to suggest I somehow oppose the EGIP?

I have always found 170s acceptable, Last night took a 170 as far as Dunblane and it was perfectly fine, seats are generally fine. A few nearest the doors can be worn, though this unit didn't seem to be and it was a perfectly acceptable size for the loadings as well. In fact most trips I've taken where it's been crowed have been HSTs so I would suggest they are seemingly able to deduce which services require the larger capacity trains.