ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[mullac30]

I wonder if the tilting ability of the Voyager would have allowed higher EPS speeds on the HML and Aberdeen line? Perhaps Pendolinos could be used after electrification, as there are some very impressive plans for their refurbishment on the lessors website, as seen below, they seem far more impressive than any Mk3 refirb and are the only tilting EMU available - at least according to GNWRs efforts to acquire new 390's. They could delive much higher speeds without the need for track realignment.

 

[jopsuk]

tilting is useful if the speed limitations are due to passenger comfort. Which isn't always the case.

And there's so little chance of that super-low-density business class appearing on any train

 

[gingertom]

I wonder if the tilting ability of the Voyager would have allowed higher EPS speeds on the HML and Aberdeen line? Perhaps Pendolinos could be used after electrification, as there are some very impressive plans for their refurbishment on the lessors website, as seen below, they seem far more impressive than any Mk3 refirb and are the only tilting EMU available - at least according to GNWRs efforts to acquire new 390's. They could delive much higher speeds without the need for track realignment.

the latest incarnation of the Pendolino, E610, has a service speed of 250kph/155mph so some serious journey time reduction possible.

 

[43096]

I wonder if the tilting ability of the Voyager would have allowed higher EPS speeds on the HML and Aberdeen line? Perhaps Pendolinos could be used after electrification, as there are some very impressive plans for their refurbishment on the lessors website, as seen below, they seem far more impressive than any Mk3 refirb and are the only tilting EMU available - at least according to GNWRs efforts to acquire new 390's. They could delive much higher speeds without the need for track realignment.

That’s one hell of a refurb as they appear to be fitting bigger windows.....

 

[gingertom]

posted this in an other thread a few minutes ago and reckoned it needed saying here.
Wabtec is running so far behind with this modification programme, managing about only one coach per week. it could realistically be Dec 2020 when the final rake is delivered and in service. If I was in Scotrail's shoes I'd be worried about losing even more 170s off-lease before the HSTs are ready and investigating a plan B to mitigate if it isn't going to happen. Does anyone have any idea what the contingency plans are should there be insufficient HST sets ready when the next batch of 170s have to go off-lease?

 

[Bikeman78]

I have found the noise levels perfectly acceptable on a voyager and far quieter and more comfortable than a mk 3 with its various squeaks and rattles.

I travelled on an HST from Edinburgh to York this week. I did notice the squeaky gangways. I'm never noticed that before. Now I'm wondering if they've all always been like that or whether the GWR ones are better? After that I travelled on two different 185s, nice quiet saloon, not much engine noise but both made had the same rattling coming from the air con. The last bit of the journey was on a 175. The air con was making all sorts of noises with a loud "whoosh" every few seconds though to be honest I was just glad that it worked. A 158 would have been a nightmare.

Talking of air con, I heard two women moaning about the lack of air con on the 365s in Scotland. The funny thing is that this converation was taking place on the 1718 to Alloa in a very full 158 with broken air con. It was like an oven in there. It wasn't even a hot day and it had been parked in the shade at Queen Stret for 45 minutes. I dread to think what it was like during the recent heatwave.

 

[Northhighland]

43132 + 43145 should be away for refurbishment soon. 43003+ 43148 will head out this afternoon (as part of set HA05), replaced tonight by 43021 + 43127 (part of set HA01) - the 2 training trains swap over at Perth most days now.

Out of interest, how long does the training take, every time I am down to the central belt I come across a training set somewhere on the HML, so it seems to be pretty intense. Once the training is done, how long a gap before introducing the trains before staff would need retrained?

 

[jingsmonty]

Is there a schedule or some way to find out when the training trains pass through Pitlochry each day? I'd like to go and take a look. Apologies if this is a question with an obvious answer to those in the know but I'm new here so, well, don't know how these things work.

The training train is booked to stop at Pitlochry (southbound) at 1757, it it booked to stand at Pitlochry (Northbound) for approx 25mins (usually arrives about 1805 & booked to depart 2029).
These timings all depend on other trains though, any delays & the HST gets held!

It should run Tonight, but probably won't be leaving Inverness next week. Should be running the 2 weeks after that, though.
There is a morning path as well, however, this is only being used sporadically just now (mainly for competence runs.

 

[jingsmonty]

Out of interest, how long does the training take, every time I am down to the central belt I come across a training set somewhere on the HML, so it seems to be pretty intense. Once the training is done, how long a gap before introducing the trains before staff would need retrained?

Training lasts 3 weeks for drivers. 1st week is'static', eg, mainly classroom based, low speed moves around the depot & learning faults/failures on the static HST set.
Next 2 weeks is running back & fore to Perth, learning how to drive them - the acceleration & (particularly) the brakes are very different to what we are used to! Passing out is on the 10th day of practical handling.
We have to drive them minimum every 12 weeks to retain competence.

 

[Unclepete]

Hi, does anyone have a clear idea as to when the first refurbished set will be released? It must be very close surely?

 

[scotraildriver]

posted this in an other thread a few minutes ago and reckoned it needed saying here.
Wabtec is running so far behind with this modification programme, managing about only one coach per week. it could realistically be Dec 2020 when the final rake is delivered and in service. If I was in Scotrail's shoes I'd be worried about losing even more 170s off-lease before the HSTs are ready and investigating a plan B to mitigate if it isn't going to happen. Does anyone have any idea what the contingency plans are should there be insufficient HST sets ready when the next batch of 170s have to go off-lease?

We may run the HST as slam door if absolutely necessary. Edinburgh guards are already trained for the Fife circle sets so it's not too big a deal. Trying to avoid doing it though as it will really take the shine of the HSTs if we use unrefurbished slam door trains.

 

[jingsmonty]

That’s one hell of a refurb as they appear to be fitting bigger windows.....

Looks more like a Mk 3, to be honest! I can't see the money being spent for tilting trains in Scotland - the infrastructure required would cost a fortune! Wouldn't argue against it being a bad idea, though...not that I like travelling in Voyagers OR Pendolinos much!

 

[gordonjahn]

posted this in an other thread a few minutes ago and reckoned it needed saying here.
Wabtec is running so far behind with this modification programme, managing about only one coach per week. it could realistically be Dec 2020 when the final rake is delivered and in service. If I was in Scotrail's shoes I'd be worried about losing even more 170s off-lease before the HSTs are ready and investigating a plan B to mitigate if it isn't going to happen. Does anyone have any idea what the contingency plans are should there be insufficient HST sets ready when the next batch of 170s have to go off-lease?

We may run the HST as slam door if absolutely necessary. Edinburgh guards are already trained for the Fife circle sets so it's not too big a deal. Trying to avoid doing it though as it will really take the shine of the HSTs if we use unrefurbished slam door trains.

I'd imagine "keep the 5x 156s and 5x 170s that were just going off-lease and not being transferred, and run as much as possible that would have been diesel with the 10x 365s" is an option too. That's up to 20 sets / 65 carriages between them which is barely half the planned number of Mk3s, but add in some unrefurbed HSTs and once SDA electrification is complete there might end up enough slack to keep the show on the road.

 

[47802]

posted this in an other thread a few minutes ago and reckoned it needed saying here.
Wabtec is running so far behind with this modification programme, managing about only one coach per week. it could realistically be Dec 2020 when the final rake is delivered and in service. If I was in Scotrail's shoes I'd be worried about losing even more 170s off-lease before the HSTs are ready and investigating a plan B to mitigate if it isn't going to happen. Does anyone have any idea what the contingency plans are should there be insufficient HST sets ready when the next batch of 170s have to go off-lease?

They are keeping an extra 13 170's over what was originally planned for growth, so they may have to use those to cover for HST's for a while, and as has already mentioned above there are a few additional 156's and 170's that don't appear to have anywhere else to go at present, plus of course running some slam door HST sets up to Dec 19 is an option.

 

[Northhighland]

We may run the HST as slam door if absolutely necessary. Edinburgh guards are already trained for the Fife circle sets so it's not too big a deal. Trying to avoid doing it though as it will really take the shine of the HSTs if we use unrefurbished slam door trains.

Honestly I can see your point, but the overcrowding on the 170's means that the HST with Slam Doors would be seen as absolute godsend. Looking after customers should be the priority. I really cannot see anything other than utter frustration when a rammed 170 passes an empty 5 coach training train on a hot summers day. Annoying customers is always a doubtful business strategy.

 

[scotraildriver]

It's not up to me!

 

[Stoney1979]

The training train is booked to stop at Pitlochry (southbound) at 1757, it it booked to stand at Pitlochry (Northbound) for approx 25mins (usually arrives about 1805 & booked to depart 2029).
These timings all depend on other trains though, any delays & the HST gets held!

It should run Tonight, but probably won't be leaving Inverness next week. Should be running the 2 weeks after that, though.
There is a morning path as well, however, this is only being used sporadically just now (mainly for competence runs.

Thank you very much for that info, I'll try and get down for a peek sometime soon.

 

[GusB]

Honestly I can see your point, but the overcrowding on the 170's means that the HST with Slam Doors would be seen as absolute godsend. Looking after customers should be the priority. I really cannot see anything other than utter frustration when a rammed 170 passes an empty 5 coach training train on a hot summers day. Annoying customers is always a doubtful business strategy.

Even if the Scotrail did decide to press the HSTs into service without the modifications, there would still need to be sufficient crew trained to operate them before they could be released into the wild. You'd still be passing empty trains on training runs.

 

[Highland37]

posted this in an other thread a few minutes ago and reckoned it needed saying here.
Wabtec is running so far behind with this modification programme, managing about only one coach per week. it could realistically be Dec 2020 when the final rake is delivered and in service. If I was in Scotrail's shoes I'd be worried about losing even more 170s off-lease before the HSTs are ready and investigating a plan B to mitigate if it isn't going to happen. Does anyone have any idea what the contingency plans are should there be insufficient HST sets ready when the next batch of 170s have to go off-lease?

In a fantasy world, it might be quicker to electrify the HML and order new EMUs at the same time.

 

[Aictos]

Even if the Scotrail did decide to press the HSTs into service without the modifications, there would still need to be sufficient crew trained to operate them before they could be released into the wild. You'd still be passing empty trains on training runs.

Indeed, Scotrail staff aren't trained on HSTs and so need training on what to them is a new type of traction even if LNER have been using them for decades.

They need to be trained up on HSTs so they know how to operate them, it's not like they can just jump into the cab and off they go, the training needs to include drivers for obvious reasons but also guards, dispatchers and fitters.

In a fantasy world, it might be quicker to electrify the HML and order new EMUs at the same time.

We can't possibly wire up the Highland Mainline as doing so would wreck the scenic views....

 

[47802]

In a fantasy world, it might be quicker to electrify the HML and order new EMUs at the same time.

Well I expect there's a fair chance you could order some 802's today and get them quicker.

Even the calculation of getting all of them by Dec 2020 seems a tad optimistic from what we have seen so far.

 

[marks87]

There's a video (not mine) on YouTube showing some of the Mk3s being shunted by an 08 at Wabtec.

 

[mullac30]

There's a video (not mine) on YouTube showing some of the Mk3s being shunted by an 08 at Wabtec.

I don't think the rake is finished internally, if you look at the silhouettes of the seats you can only see the frame, and not the distinctive headrest that Grammer seats have.

 

[Highland37]

Well I expect there's a fair chance you could order some 802's today and get them quicker.

Even the calculation of getting all of them by Dec 2020 seems a tad optimistic from what we have seen so far.

That is depressing. They are needed now but not available or close too. Don't order 802s though as it would mean using one of the terrible two who are poor at delivery.

Do Siemens, Bombardier, CAF or anyone else have a product which could be delivered in 2 years in quantity similar to 27 HSTs?

How quickly could Mh5s and a 68 be delivered?

 

[najaB]

That is depressing.

Also slightly hyperbolic. It's not uncommon for projects like this to be delayed initially, but then pick up speed as processes and procedures are refined.

 

[gingertom]

Also slightly hyperbolic. It's not uncommon for projects like this to be delayed initially, but then pick up speed as processes and procedures are refined.

Wabtec have done doors and interiors before so the processes and procedures are already refined, they are not on a learning curve. They have too much work on for the resources they have available.

 

[jingsmonty]

The training train only has 4 coaches & is definetly not fit for passenger traffic - a lot of the GWR seats are missing & the toilets aren't maintained (I'll leave that to the imagination...!). This coukd be fairly easily fixed, I suppose, but the other main issue is that the staff training is still ongoing - there just aren't enough crews to work a regular HST service & the Conductor training hasn't started yet! Edinburgh crews may work slam door stock, but no other depot does...

Would be good to get that 1st refurbished rake into service ASAP, though...as many as possible! Word is that there will be 2 HSTs in passenger service daily from Inverness from December. Doesn't help just now, but hopefully, this will be the last summer of overcrowded 170s on the HML.

 

[jingsmonty]

Class 68 & Mk5 wouldn't have the performance of a short formed HST & a Class 802 definetly wouldn't! I can't see a Class 802 being much better than a 170/158, performance-wise, to be honest!

The HST is what has been decided - Scotrail need to follow through on it, including all the infrastructure improvements needed on thecline & at the depots...

 

[gingertom]

Word is that there will be 2 HSTs in passenger service daily from Inverness from December.

is this a change of policy? The HST roll-out plan was Edinburgh/Aberdeen first. Suspect some lobbying been going on!

 

[najaB]

Wabtec have done doors and interiors before so the processes and procedures are already refined...

I was apparently mistaken then in the belief that this was a new door design.