ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[Journeyman]

The electronics upgrade was removed from the original ScotRail project scope, as I understand it.

Bizarre decision, given that the new WSP that is included enables significantly longer time between bogie overhauls (around 100,000 miles extra).

Good grief, this project gets stupider by the day.

 

[greyman42]

No underfloor engines, first looks spectacular. Agreed standard might not have the best seats.

The seats will still be a lot better than the seats in the LNER 800's. That applies to standard and first.

 

[Stoney1979]

Reading the above, it might be a blessing in disguise that the delays in the coach refurbishment by Wabtec will be the limiting factor to the HST introduction - giving time for everyone (SR, the public, everyone) to "get the hang" of them.

I would suggest that it's imperative that SR get through the first month or so of even a single set running reliably, without any major problems that the HST-naysers and semi-aware hacks will latch on to, to further their own purposes (political, to sell newspapers etc. etc.)

The whole project is something of a risk but I'll pin my subjective colours to the mast now and say, all things considered, ultimately, I think it'll be a massive success. We'll probably know they answer by about Hogmanay 2019....

 

[AndrewE]

What is it about you and underfloor engines?!? 99.9% of people don't care where the engines are.

I strongly disagree. The vibration from underfloor engines (especially when stationary) are what turned me off road coaches and made Voyagers and some DMUs such an unwelcome development on the railway. Having "grown out" of travel-sickness going an hour to school and back on an RT for 5 years I now find it creeping back...

 

[GrimShady]

What is it about you and underfloor engines?!? 99.9% of people don't care where the engines are.

Eh..... I don't like them lol! Can't you accept there is a contingent of people that don't like them?

It was obviously a factor in ScotRails choice of rolling stock here.

99% of statistics are made up on the spot.

 

[Stoney1979]

What is it about you and underfloor engines?!? 99.9% of people don't care where the engines are.

If you asked "the man on the street" that specific question then, yes, most would probably reply that they don't. They've probably never even thought of it before.

In my experience, most people don't know one train from another, let alone where the engines are on them. They just want a pleasant travelling experience (a seat, somewhere to put luggage, perhaps a café/trolley)

We're probably over-thinking things here, which I'm not complaining about as I am thoroughly enjoying this thread. But we have to remain aware that most of the general public don't know, and don't care what an HST is, nor about anything other than what their own journey is like. In that regard, IF the HSTs are run reliably, I can't see how this intro can fail.

 

[Mordac]

It's certainly an improvement comfort wise over a 170. Reliability....well only time will tell. If they can pull it off (reliably) then I do think it will prove popular. Should we be using 40 year old stock? Maybe not but they'll do in the meantime until NR can make up their minds when these lines will be electrified.

What's their beef anyway? Its not as if the fleet is dangerous or hazardous to staff/passenger.

Their beef is that they're being operated by a private company. If they were new build re-creations of the orient express, they'd find something else to complain about.

 

[Bungle965]

Good grief, this project gets stupider by the day.

Was scrapped quite a while ago to be fair.
Sam

 

[Highlandspring]

I was in Dundee this evening and went past the yard to have a look at the new set...





(3x photos of refurbished train)

 

[43096]

Was scrapped quite a while ago to be fair.
Sam

Doesn't make the decision any less stupid, though. We're talking about investing now in something that will deliver many millions of pounds of saving over the life of the franchise, addresses obsolescence issues and provides a better ride for passengers.

 

[sde426]

Very interesting article about HST maintenance at Craigentinny:

https://www.railengineer.uk/2016/05/12/craigentinny-does-it-all/

Gives a good insight into the work that Haymarket is now taking on.

 

[haggishunter]

Good grief, this project gets stupider by the day.

You get more repetitive and irritating by the day

 

[dmkc]

Is it just me that thinks not having dedicated thunderbirds for the HSTs is a wee bitty risky? (As things stand anyway)

 

[Ben.A.98]

Is it just me that thinks not having dedicated thunderbirds for the HSTs is a wee bitty risky? (As things stand anyway)

After the incident a few weeks ago when the LNER service broke down at Kingussie blocking the single line I found it most surprising that the thunderbird came from Edinburgh to collect it. Would one at Perth not make sense?

 

[gsnedders]

After the incident a few weeks ago when the LNER service broke down at Kingussie blocking the single line I found it most surprising that the thunderbird came from Edinburgh to collect it. Would one at Perth not make sense?

The question is all down to cost. You essentially have to pay to have a locomotive idle, not doing other work it would get paid for, while still maintaining it, regardless of whether you make any use of it. It's also worthwhile remembering that per the terms of the Track Access Agreement, NR can commandeer the nearest suitable vehicle to rescue a failed train, with the cost of that then being passed on to the operator of the failed train—over the period of the franchise, with the expected failure rate, is that more or less than paying for a thunderbird loco to be on standby?

How often is there a locomotive (or another HST) that could rescue a failed train in the area anyway? For much of the day time, in theory the CS 73/9s could be commandeered as rescue locomotives from Inverness or Aberdeen, for example, and once they're all in service there's a decent chance they could be rescued by another HST. The worst case is when there's a fair mix of HSTs and DMUs, because the DMUs can't rescue an HST; once the DMUs go it'll be much easier.

 

[D1009]

Presumably as delivery of the power cars is rather exceeding that of the coaches, other power cars will be available in the short term in the event of reliability issues. I don't think Scotrail will take long to understand what the issues are, and the delay to delivery of the coaches will help in this respect. This project is high profile as far as Scotrail is concerned, the difference with GWR is that they are having all sorts of issues introducing the IETs, leaving the HST maintenance on a downward spiral as the sets go off lease.

 

[Highlandspring]

? For much of the day time, in theory the CS 73/9s could be commandeered as rescue locomotives from Inverness or Aberdeen, for example, and once they're all in service there's a decent chance they could be rescued by another HST.

The problem with that is the availablility of drivers and only locos which are already on the network (i.e. not stabled in a yard or siding) can be comandeered to clear the line, so can only assist to the nearest suitable location. I think that in the short term at least we are likely to see HST-HST or back to back powercars being the typical form of assistance unless ScotRail choose to continue to rely on LNER to provide their Edinburgh thunderbird loco. LNER already provide technical assistance for HSTs by phone to ScotRail when needed.

 

[Thunderer]

I will. They're old and knackered and full of rust. They also have components that regularly fail, and the gangways and couplers squeak like crazy.

I still prefer them to the awful 800/802's we have to put up with now on the GWR, rusty or squeeky, the HST's are a solid workhorse and built to last. Yes any 40 year old mechanical/electrical items will need improvement work, but the refurb is not a full refurb (done on the cheap) so its not the trains fault. If the power cars had a full refurb and the mark 3's had some serious external work done on them, they would easily last another 20-30 years. If the Dft had a brain it would have realised the HST is a winning formula and redesigned the IEP project on a 21st century upgraded design of our existing HST, not re-invented the wheel, only to make it square.

 

[PG]

Very interesting article about HST maintenance at Craigentinny:

https://www.railengineer.uk/2016/05/12/craigentinny-does-it-all/

Question arising from that article:
What's happening to the LNER powercars when they go off-lease?
To my mind if they are available next year to Scotrail then they should grab them and get rid of the ex GWR ones

"performance improvements will be required until HSTs leave Craigentinny when the intention is to hand them over in peak condition."

 

[Bletchleyite]

I was in Dundee this evening and went past the yard to have a look at the new set...

View attachment 51419
View attachment 51420
View attachment 51421

(3x photos of refurbished train)

That livery looks superb. Despite being 40 years old, they still look modern - particularly now the only big thing that made them look old, the slamdoors, have gone.

 

[43096]

Question arising from that article:
What's happening to the LNER powercars when they go off-lease?
To my mind if they are available next year to Scotrail then they should grab them and get rid of the ex GWR ones

No future for the LNER fleet as it stands currently.

ScotRail cannot “just grab them” - they have a contract for specific vehicles with Angel, vehicles that are having significant work (even if not the full electronics upgrade) done at Brush. Angel will not be impressed if they turn round and say “never mind that, we want these” - response would be “you signed the contract, get on with it”.

If I was ScotRail, what I would try and do is find 29 sets of Brush traction motors to replace the GEC examples under 43124-152.

 

[Rail Blues]

No future for the LNER fleet as it stands currently.

ScotRail cannot “just grab them” - they have a contract for specific vehicles with Angel, vehicles that are having significant work (even if not the full electronics upgrade) done at Brush. Angel will not be impressed if they turn round and say “never mind that, we want these” - response would be “you signed the contract, get on with it”.

If I was ScotRail, what I would try and do is find 29 sets of Brush traction motors to replace the GEC examples under 43124-152.

It absolutely makes my mind boggle that presumably rational and intelligent people take leave of their senses when it comes to the railway. Do they imagine If they'd leased a car on a four year deal and after a couple of weeks using it, they see a nicer car of the same make and model on the forecourt, strolled in, chucked down the keys and said 'I want that one now' how much shrift do they think they'd get?

 

[GrimShady]

I still prefer them to the awful 800/802's we have to put up with now on the GWR, rusty or squeeky, the HST's are a solid workhorse and built to last. Yes any 40 year old mechanical/electrical items will need improvement work, but the refurb is not a full refurb (done on the cheap) so its not the trains fault. If the power cars had a full refurb and the mark 3's had some serious external work done on them, they would easily last another 20-30 years. If the Dft had a brain it would have realised the HST is a winning formula and redesigned the IEP project on a 21st century upgraded design of our existing HST, not re-invented the wheel, only to make it square.

Agreed. I remember years back when the initial plan was for power cars and trailers which then unfortunately morphed into the stanard issue multiple units.

Wasn't there a Chinese consortium that produced some rather interesting designs of electric power cars, diesel power cars and a hybrid version?

 

[Paul Kerr]

Good grief, this project gets stupider by the day.

That's your opinion and you're entitled to it, even though I strongly disagree with it. Reading your comments you obviously don't like the HST and would prefer a multiple unit based solution. I happen to be another user who thinks a train with vibrating and noisy underfloor engines jammed under the floor is a very cheap and poor compromise for a train that is supposed to provide Inter City standards of travel. It was a 1950's solution to cutting costs on branch lines, not a solution to long distance travel.

We could argue about it all day but in the end of the day the ship has already sailed on that one. We'll have a chance to see how the bimodes perform side by side with the HST soon enough so we'll be able to judge which is better. Personally I think performance wise the HST wins hands down, however I guess by your comments you'll be opting to travel LNER whenever you can. But I do hope that if the HSTs are a success you will be willing to admit that they were a good choice, as I will admit they were a poor choice if they are not successful. I do agree with you that power car reliability is a potential concern but there is still time to address that based on reliability data from the initial sets that enter service. The reliability data will come soon enough for both the HSTs and the 80x units and then we can determine which is better.

 

[433N]

If you asked "the man on the street" that specific question then, yes, most would probably reply that they don't. They've probably never even thought of it before.

In my experience, most people don't know one train from another, let alone where the engines are on them. They just want a pleasant travelling experience (a seat, somewhere to put luggage, perhaps a café/trolley)

We're probably over-thinking things here, which I'm not complaining about as I am thoroughly enjoying this thread. But we have to remain aware that most of the general public don't know, and don't care what an HST is, nor about anything other than what their own journey is like. In that regard, IF the HSTs are run reliably, I can't see how this intro can fail.

Not the 'man in the street' but close. My uni-student daughter took the train from Edinburgh to Dundee for the weekend. She remarked that on the way back she got a 'posh train'. I suspect she caught a 158/170 one way and a VTEC HST the other. I wonder which was the 'posh train' ; I suspect it was the 40 year old scrap metal on wheels.

 

[Journeyman]

You get more repetitive and irritating by the day

Why, because I disagree with you?

The HSTs have been hugely delayed.
GWR have palmed off the least reliable power cars to ScotRail.
GWR's fleet is the least reliable anyway.
ScotRail have skimped by not installing upgrades that improve comfort and reliability.
The trains are 40 years old!

This whole project is madness.

 

[Journeyman]

That's your opinion and you're entitled to it, even though I strongly disagree with it. Reading your comments you obviously don't like the HST and would prefer a multiple unit based solution.

I actually think the HST is the best train BR ever built and that it was a huge success, technically and commercially. I've travelled on loads of them and they're great. But...they're very old, becoming increasingly troublesome, and this project is off to an extremely shaky start. I think it's high time the HSTs were retired.

As I've said elsewhere, I don't care where the engines are, or what they're powered by, and neither do the overwhelming majority of other people. They want a reliable, modern, comfortable train, and I'm not convinced at all that this is the right solution. I think a new train - of whatever form - would have been better. And yes, there's plenty of DMUs that could fit the bill, and most people would find them absolutely fine.

I happen to be another user who thinks a train with vibrating and noisy underfloor engines jammed under the floor is a very cheap and poor compromise for a train that is supposed to provide Inter City standards of travel. It was a 1950's solution to cutting costs on branch lines, not a solution to long distance travel.

Only enthusiasts seem to care about this, and comparing an 800/
802 to a knackered first-generation unit is ridiculous.

But I do hope that if the HSTs are a success you will be willing to admit that they were a good choice, as I will admit they were a poor choice if they are not successful.

You have a deal. I want this project to work, I just fear it won't.

 

[najaB]

I think a new train - of whatever form - would have been better.

Except that they would have been significantly more expensive, have taken longer to get into service (unless the current delays get significantly longer) and would've condemned us to diesel-only operation for another 20+ years, during a period of rolling electrification.

The HSTs will serve as a suitable stop-gap until electrification reaches the point that bi-mode units make sense: wires as far as Carnoustie/Arbroath, Ladybank, and Perth.

 

[Altnabreac]

Not the 'man in the street' but close. My uni-student daughter took the train from Edinburgh to Dundee for the weekend. She remarked that on the way back she got a 'posh train'. I suspect she caught a 158/170 one way and a VTEC HST the other. I wonder which was the 'posh train' ; I suspect it was the 40 year old scrap metal on wheels.

I don't have a beef in the DMUs vs Locos debate and I think we overestimate how much "normals" care about what train they are on. However all the evidence from the HML is that people have a significant preference for the Chieftain and this is primarily why the Intercity Fleet requirement was written into the Scotrail franchise.

If the HSTs can be made to work reliably I think they will be viewed as a big improvement by passengers who will be pleased with their new "posh trains".

 

[Journeyman]

I don't have a beef in the DMUs vs Locos debate and I think we overestimate how much "normals" care about what train they are on. However all the evidence from the HML is that people have a significant preference for the Chieftain and this is primarily why the Intercity Fleet requirement was written into the Scotrail franchise.

While this is undoubtedly true, it still has nothing to do with where the engines are, and it's possible to deliver that level of service/comfort using a range of options.