ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

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yorkie

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This thread a traction & rolling stock thread about ScotRail HST Introduction.

If there are other threads (perhaps in the Infrastructure section) that are more appropriate for your post, please use those.

If you wish to discuss anything else for which there isn't already a thread, please do create one. Thanks.
 

InOban

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How often do you see double 170s out and about? If anything a 170+158 combo is more likely.
A week past Sunday I was driving to Aberdeen (for the ferry to Shetland, before you ask) and was passed by a double 170.
I would assume that the first diagram will be based in Edinburgh and avoid peak times.
 

TheMuttley

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A week past Sunday I was driving to Aberdeen (for the ferry to Shetland, before you ask) and was passed by a double 170.
I would assume that the first diagram will be based in Edinburgh and avoid peak times.
Yes, but that's more about positioning rather than capacity planning, surely?
 

najaB

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Yes, but that's more about positioning rather than capacity planning, surely?
Quite possibly, depending on time. The double-170 may well be about getting two sets in the right place for Monday morning.

As to the HST introduction, I would expect them to be used on off-peak services for the first day or so. If only so that there's some slack to be able to take photos, etc.
 

jingsmonty

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A week past Sunday I was driving to Aberdeen (for the ferry to Shetland, before you ask) and was passed by a double 170.
I would assume that the first diagram will be based in Edinburgh and avoid peak times.
Doubled-up sets are more common on Sundays as the service frequency is a lot lower
 

Class83

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In terms of introduction, given the delay with carriage refurbs but power cars seem to be arriving on time, it would seem sensible to accept 4 car sets as fast as possible and only then extend to 5 car afterwards.

Fixed formations are something of a problem with the chance of overcrowding in the peak and 'carting around fresh air' off peak. Though I expect that excluding a limited number of peak time departures 5 carriages will be enough for now. Scotrail have previously tried to address this by removing stops. Perhaps at peak times extending the Semi-Fast service from Dundee to Aberdeen and transferring most or all of the intermediate stops between those stations to the semi fast once there are enough 170s to do this and run it as 6 car.
 

Clansman

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In terms of introduction, given the delay with carriage refurbs but power cars seem to be arriving on time
There were a few teething problems with a couple of the refurbished power cars when they arrived up here, 033 especially, so here's hoping these issues aren't prevalent on the others when they arrive up North, so that the introduction of each completed set goes as smoothly and as quickly as possible.
 

marks87

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Is it going to be in the Dundee DMU sidings for a while?

I’d like to see it in the flesh but tomorrow after work will be easier than before.
 

Stoney1979

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Reading through the above it seems clear that given the massive changes coming along with the full HST intro, SR are going to have to a bit imaginative and "left field thinking" about how they (at least) initially structure tickets and pricing to ensure the uplift in capacity is actually used out of the natural high demand times - both during the week, and right through the year.

The public are going to take some time to recognise and get used to the changes - if all goes well, we'll just not be used to having it so good! In the meantime, it would a deep shame to have empty HSTs running around due to a failure to do this. It may well be worth running a few weeks or months of loss-leading fares just so people can take a cheap tester-trip?

I am currently driving my regular trips to Edinburgh if I can't take the LNER, refusing to pay to use the 170s on the HML as the experience with tourists etc is just awful. Waiting with baited breath for what is (hopefully) coming.....
 

gsnedders

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Wouldn't the upgraded first class product be could enough to self itself? Certainly far superior to the 170.
The price premium tends to be fairly substantial (partly because ScotRail rarely have 1st Advance tickets much below the Anytime price), and for that premium I'd definitely want more than just a nicer seat.
 

47271

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From today's Herald, he's such a wee ray of sunshine...

Also a strange confused and obscure reference at the end, presumably they're saying that the power cars were reengined in the mid 2000s, so that makes them the newest physical 'engines' on Scotrail?

Rail union claims new trains are 'Dad's Army' of the fleet

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/16590627.rail-union-claims-new-trains-are-dads-army-of-the-fleet/


SCOTRAIL have been accused of inflicting the “Dad’s Army” of the rail fleet on passengers.

The Transport and Salaried Staffs’ Association criticised the franchise holder Abellio after further delays emerged with the delivery of refurbished, 40-year-old 125 trains.

Originally due to start running in May, then delayed to July, the first of the trains are now due to start in September at the earliest on the Edinburgh-Aberdeen route.

Further trains are supposed to serve routes from Edinburgh and Glasgow to Aberdeenand Inverness by next may, but there is no fixed timetable for them to start service.

The new rolling stock is intended to put four and five-carriage trains on lines which are currently served by trains as short as two carriages.

TSSA union leader Manuel Cortes said the Scottish Government should have insisted on new stock instead of giving passengers a ride “on museum pieces”.

He said: “Scotland’s railways deserve better than the ‘make do and mend’ culture we see.

“These trains were due in May but don’t look likely to start running until at least September.

“Intercity 125 trains were a tremendous feat of engineering back in the 1970s.

“Sadly, the units that have now made their way to ScotRail are the “Dad’s Army” of the fleet. “These trains should be heading to the junk yard rather than be used to link Scotland's central belt with the North and the Highlands.”

The 125s were previously running on the Great Western Railway in Southern England

Upgrading the existing ScotRail fleet is a franchise requirement.

ScotRail said the TSSA had made a number of inaccurate claims about the 125s' components, but acknowledged there had been a hold-up.

A spokesman said the 2006 diesel engines would be the newest in the ScotRail fleet, and the delay was caused by the refurbishment at Wabtec Rail in Doncaster.

 

yorkie

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I don't suppose individuals like Manuel Cortes realise the irony of referring to "museum pieces", given their reluctance to accept we are in the 21st century.

No wonder the rail unions have the reputation that they do!
 

47271

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I don't suppose individuals like Manuel Cortes realise the irony of referring to "museum pieces", given their reluctance to accept we are in the 21st century.

No wonder the rail unions have the reputation that they do!
Hehe, we know that the vitriol would've been the same if new trains were getting built.

Let's write it now. It would've been a 'ripoff' leasing deal with 'fatcats laughing all the way to the bank' creating 'woefully inadequate underpowered trains with carriages unfit for intercity routes.' Etc etc.
 

najaB

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I shall take a look in the morning. (Was considering going down the now, but that's way too spotter!)
Had a look this morning on the way into work: add me to the 'Looks fantastic!' camp. (Apologies for no pictures, but it's peeing down this morning!)

One thing I noticed, is the first-class carriage the wrong way around? The passenger door is at the powercar end with the non-passenger door closer to the next carriage - it's the other way around on slam-door stock.
 

GrimShady

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From today's Herald, he's such a wee ray of sunshine...

Also a strange confused and obscure reference at the end, presumably they're saying that the power cars were reengined in the mid 2000s, so that makes them the newest physical 'engines' on Scotrail?

Rail union claims new trains are 'Dad's Army' of the fleet

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/16590627.rail-union-claims-new-trains-are-dads-army-of-the-fleet/




Typical lazy journalism. Still good trains 40 years later!
 

Northhighland

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Reading through the above it seems clear that given the massive changes coming along with the full HST intro, SR are going to have to a bit imaginative and "left field thinking" about how they (at least) initially structure tickets and pricing to ensure the uplift in capacity is actually used out of the natural high demand times - both during the week, and right through the year.

The public are going to take some time to recognise and get used to the changes - if all goes well, we'll just not be used to having it so good! In the meantime, it would a deep shame to have empty HSTs running around due to a failure to do this. It may well be worth running a few weeks or months of loss-leading fares just so people can take a cheap tester-trip?

I am currently driving my regular trips to Edinburgh if I can't take the LNER, refusing to pay to use the 170s on the HML as the experience with tourists etc is just awful. Waiting with baited breath for what is (hopefully) coming.....
Think many people in the Highlands share your view. Am fairly sure the HST will see numbers up.
 

Rail Blues

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Typical lazy journalism. Still good trains 40 years later!
It isn't, lazy journalism. Nor should the Herald be expected to be an unthinking cheerleader for this endeavour.

It expresses a view of a senior Union Official that the trains are not fit for purpose, that they are 40 year old is a fact, that they are good trains is an opinion. In terms of the latter, you take one view, he takes another. Mine is somewhere in between. You seem completely one eyed about this.
 

TheMuttley

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It isn't, lazy journalism. Nor should the Herald be expected to be an unthinking cheerleader for this endeavour.

It expresses a view of a senior Union Official that the trains are not fit for purpose. You take one view, he takes another. Mine is somewhere in between.
Does it test the assertions made? Or look beyond the soundbites? I think that is what is being referred to as "lazy journalism", perhaps.
 

Rail Blues

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Does it test the assertions made? Or look beyond the soundbites? I think that is what is being referred to as "lazy journalism", perhaps.
It mentions the capacity increase and offers Scotrail a right of reply, which admittedly isn't particularly well articulated but we don't know whether that is due to a poor press statement from Scotrail or the journalist mangling it. and is written for a a generalist audience who may have never heard of a HST before.

Also that they are 40 years old and are being introduced late... Well there's no two ways round this. They are!
 

TheMuttley

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Fair enough. Perhaps we're expecting too much from the Herald - if only the New York Times or The Guardian would take more of an interest...! ;)
 

marks87

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It mentions the capacity increase and offers Scotrail a right of reply, which admittedly isn't particularly well articulated but we don't know whether that is due to a poor press statement from Scotrail or the journalist mangling it. and is written for a a generalist audience who may have never heard of a HST before.

Also that they are 40 years old and are being introduced late... Well there's no two ways round this. They are!
That depends on how you define what makes up a train. If you replace basically everything, is it still the same train?

It's very much a case of Trigger's broom. Or Ship of Theseus, if you want the general philosophical concept.
 

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