ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[route101]

IMHO there will be a couple of revenue-earning services early and late in the day instead of empty stock moves to/from Haymarket for maintenance.

I would be surprised if they did , wanted it all EMU .

 

[alexf380]

I think, probably, that in order to get the stock from Glasgow to Edinburgh, they'll simply diagram a Glasgow arrival at say, Aberdeen, to form the next Edinburgh departure.

 

[dmkc]

Just a curiosity as obviously everyone sitting tight waiting for the first set to enter service, but any feeling for how far along they are in terms of completing the 2nd set?
Or are we likely to see the first set provide further snagging after some revenue earning service first before we see rake #2?

 

[sprinterguy]

I think, probably, that in order to get the stock from Glasgow to Edinburgh, they'll simply diagram a Glasgow arrival at say, Aberdeen, to form the next Edinburgh departure.

There'll still be sets terminating at Glasgow each night that need to get back to depot, presumably Haymarket unless stabling at Eastfield is also planned.

 

[The_Engineer]

There'll still be sets terminating at Glasgow each night that need to get back to depot, presumably Haymarket unless stabling at Eastfield is also planned.

I don't see any good reason that they cannot be outbased at Eastfield overnight.....

 

[sprinterguy]

I don't see any good reason that they cannot be outbased at Eastfield overnight.....

That's what I was wondering - I'm not fully aware of what the stabling arrangements will be, if any, away from Edinburgh, Aberdeen and Inverness.

 

[gordonjahn]

That's what I was wondering - I'm not fully aware of what the stabling arrangements will be, if any, away from Edinburgh, Aberdeen and Inverness.

They've sat in the siding immediately west of the CET building at Eastfield - I guess they can get into the CET/Fuelling roads at Eastfield, but I don't think the headshunt is long enough to access the stabling roads... I know it was extended, but it looks like it was made long enough just for a 4x23m vehicle (where only 3x23m used it previously).

 

[marks87]

That's what I was wondering - I'm not fully aware of what the stabling arrangements will be, if any, away from Edinburgh, Aberdeen and Inverness.

They're building an HST maintenance facility at Perth, which is where a fair few DMUs end up each night already with the station effectively turning into a depot.

 

[stuart]

The coaches also have the traditional yellow/red stripe at cantrail level on the first class/buffet vehicle, which will aid identification.

This is certainly a help, but I also welcome your earlier comment that the matter is "on the radar". I'm thinking particularly of my own situation (local station Carrbridge, where dwell times can be less than a minute, and looking to board with a suitcase into first class). One can stand in the middle of the platform, and with the aid of the identification you've mentioned one can start walking forwards or backwards before the train stops, but it's still a walk of 30-40m to the nearer end of the first class coach (in a 2+5 set). LNER put a lot of effort into advising about "reverse formations" and to turning sets around at Newcastle, and I seriously hope Scotrail will do the same. At Carrbridge, the mechanised annoucements and platform departure indicators don't even get the platform right a lot of the time (although those of us who use the station regularly know to watch out for the approach-lit signals), so I won't hold my breath waiting for them to display reliable formation indication!

To broaden the discussion a little - where could they turn sets if they wanted/needed to? I'm thinking there is the Carmuirs triangle south of Larbert and the Winchburgh chord, but possibly some other places around Glasgow and Edinburgh?

 

[mcmad]

Triangle at Gorgie opposite Haymarket depot in Edinburgh and a choice of 2 at Cowlairs in Glasgow, obviously Inverness as well. Nothing handy for Aberdeen though.

 

[stuart]

Triangle at Gorgie opposite Haymarket depot in Edinburgh and a choice of 2 at Cowlairs in Glasgow, obviously Inverness as well. Nothing handy for Aberdeen though.

Could they turn anything as long as an HST at Inverness? I thought it was only p5 that had access from both sides of the triangle, and not very much space between the points and the buffers?

However, the above discussion suggested that a problem is likely to occur only as a result of Glasgow/Edinburgh moves, and if there is a triangle near Haymarket then it should be easily solved, subject to finding a suitable path.

 

[ScotTrains]

Triangle at Gorgie opposite Haymarket depot in Edinburgh and a choice of 2 at Cowlairs in Glasgow, obviously Inverness as well. Nothing handy for Aberdeen though.

They could use the newly refurbished turntable at Aberdeen Ferryhill!

 

[Maxfly]

Could they turn anything as long as an HST at Inverness? I thought it was only p5 that had access from both sides of the triangle, and not very much space between the points and the buffers?

However, the above discussion suggested that a problem is likely to occur only as a result of Glasgow/Edinburgh moves, and if there is a triangle near Haymarket then it should be easily solved, subject to finding a suitable path.

a 2 car 158 can use the triangle but anything longer needs broken down before using it as well as needing the GF worked so not handy for a quick turning move on an HST set.

 

[adrock1976]

Another alternative for turning the sets could be Thornton Junctions by (assuming the train starts at Waverley or Haymarket) by running round the Fife Circle, or if heading from Perth or Dundee by using the two sides of the triangle heading to and from Glenrothes with Thornton if that makes sense.

The Edinburgh South Suburban can also be used too, to either depart from or arrive at the Berwick upon Tweed side of Waverley station.

 

[gingertom]

Once ScotRail make their mind up which way round they want them, they will only need turning when there's an Edinburgh-Glasgow empty stock move, so either of the Cowlairs triangles works, albeit with a walk end to end for the driver, or route it east out of Edinburgh and round the south suburban will point it in the right direction for when it eventually leaves Queen Street- less faffing about for the driver.

 

[jingsmonty]

There'll still be sets terminating at Glasgow each night that need to get back to depot, presumably Haymarket unless stabling at Eastfield is also planned.

The Queen St training train is, I think, stabled/fuelled at Eastfield, but has been swapping over with the Inverness HST for exams/maintenance carried out in Inverness.

 

[fgwrich]

Just a curiosity as obviously everyone sitting tight waiting for the first set to enter service, but any feeling for how far along they are in terms of completing the 2nd set?
Or are we likely to see the first set provide further snagging after some revenue earning service first before we see rake #2?

I don't think we are that far away from seeing a second set arriving in Scotland, from a few of the earlier photos from this summer that appeared across Twitter etc it looked as if Wabtec had 7 close to completion Mk3s sitting in their yard at the time. That was before the first 4 moved to Haymarket, but that says to me at least that they are finally working through them and starting to get atop of the program - and challenges they've faced with working on 3 TOCs Mk3s at any one time!

The Edinburgh South Suburban can also be used too, to either depart from or arrive at the Berwick upon Tweed side of Waverley station.

The exact one that stuck out in my mind - it's also the route DRS uses to keep atop of it's Fife Circle sets and will probably see a fair amount of use turning the HSTs if they need to be turned in the future.

I do wonder if a Didcot Style PIS screen would potentially help more TOCs in situations like this - I think TPE uses them as well, with a mini pictogram of the train running in it's formation with coach letters etc.

 

[Stoney1979]

Not for the first time I suspect the learned and observant contributors on here, as much as I enjoy the discussions, are over thinking things a little.

Your average punter doesn't know (or care) what an HST is, let alone what way around it turns up as.

They (I take my 75 yo Mum as a classic example) just want a reasonably comfortable seat on a train which is on time. The success or otherwise is going to be about if the "new" HSTs are reliable, and after that mostly about the onboard experience in terms of luggage space, reliability of reservations and maybe a café. No-one is going to actively complain if their coach isn't where they guessed it might be, that's just life. It would be lovely if these things could be predicted one day, but overall it's not a priority (imho).

 

[Stoney1979]

One of the "advantages" that SR have at this early stage have is that the quality of Scottish Intercity travel has been so poor for so long that there is no real expectation from anyone of anything getting any better any time soon. So, even small improvements will be noticed, as long as they get it right.

Ironically, there is a lot of PR and financial opportunity in exploiting their own (and predecessors) chronic failings.

 

[Stoney1979]

Pretty sure this is taken at Brunstane on the Ed south suburban.

(credit Yo Yo Trains)

 

[Pete_uk]

Quite a lot of clag coming from the front loco

 

[route:oxford]

Once ScotRail make their mind up which way round they want them, they will only need turning when there's an Edinburgh-Glasgow empty stock move, so either of the Cowlairs triangles works, albeit with a walk end to end for the driver, or route it east out of Edinburgh and round the south suburban will point it in the right direction for when it eventually leaves Queen Street- less faffing about for the driver.

Can a driver walk from end to end of an HST through the power cars?

With them only being 4-5 car sets, does it really matter which end First Class is? It's never really made much difference for the 170s and 158s.

 

[47271]

I don't think it does matter which way round the set is so long as those boarding can quickly work out where their coach is. At any rate it doesn't matter enough that Scotrail need to be obsessive about keeping them all pointing the same way.

Or it will matter if they put signage up on platforms, and then an HST turns up back to front...

A Scotrail 170 is particularly confusing because a three car set is very nearly symmetrical end to end. Without clear labelling it's impossible for all but the most expert traveller to tell where their reserved coach might be.

Just clearly label the coaches and it'll be a huge step forward on the present shambles.

 

[najaB]

Can a driver walk from end to end of an HST through the power cars?

It's possible but not commonly done - the engine compartment is dirty, cramped and noisy.

 

[jingsmonty]

It's possible but not commonly done - the engine compartment is dirty, cramped and noisy.

Agreed - it can also only be done if both Power Cars are shut down as drivers aren't allowed to enter the engine compartment when the engine is running.

Whenever I've prepped the training train, I've only entered the engine room as part of this, it's actually easier to climb down & walk alongside than walk through the coaches & engine rooms. As has been said, they are cramped & dirty - I have 2 Scotrail shirts with indelible marks on the sleeves already!

 

[43096]

It's possible but not commonly done - the engine compartment is dirty, cramped and noisy.

Cramped? It’s palatial compared to most loco engine rooms!

 

[jingsmonty]

Cramped? It’s palatial compared to most loco engine rooms!

I suspect you're right - the only other engine room I've been in was (once) in a Class 67. Have always been an MU driver up to now.

 

[blackhill]

They're building an HST maintenance facility at Perth, which is where a fair few DMUs end up each night already with the station effectively turning into a depot.

That's is interesting considering I don't think any Hst's start/terminate at Perth.

On another note although I look forward to there arrival ,it is only a little way forward to the standard we had a few years ago. A video has recently been posted on YouTube 'Perth in 1989' shows push/pull Glasgow-Aberdeen sets with 3-4 standard and 1-2 full length first class coaches and a coach with red banner I assume a buffet on these services.

 

[najaB]

That's is interesting considering I don't think any Hst's start/terminate at Perth.

You need to be at Perth overnight. It's a depot in all but name with the number of units that stable there overnight.

 

[mcmad]

The new depot wont just be for HST’s but all the DMUs that currently stable in the carriage sidings and station.