ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[Ginaro]

On twitter Scotrail said it was so that they can avoid trains crossing at remote locations by locking the points in position.

https://twitter.com/ScotRail/status/1073922148278960129

Hi, it's all to do with the weather. We've a temporary timetable to help keep the route open, given there's 40cm+ snow forecast. This done to avoid trains crossing at remote locations meaning points can be locked in position to avoid them becoming blocked by snow and ice. ^CT

 

[507021]

Could someone confirm if all of the planned HSTs are now with ScotRail please?

 

[Highland37]

Could someone confirm if all of the planned HSTs are now with ScotRail please?

1 of 27 has been delivered.

 

[Stoney1979]

I'm just keen to try to be as sure as possible that the HSTs aren't blamed for delays and cancellations that aren't their fault as trains. If they do fail and cause problems, then so be it, that needs to be heard too.

Too many out there, with other motives, are waiting for them to fail just because they're old trains - and then say "I told you so" etc etc.

On the whole, barring incompetent management, lack of trained staff, and the weather, the HSTs so far seem to have done pretty well in their first week. And there's no way of measuring the positives, such as the commuters who used to stand on a 170 but now have a seat on a HST.

 

[43096]

1 of 27 has been delivered.

Which is only part of the story. All required power cars and trailers are now on lease on ScotRail.

 

[433N]

... but it takes a huge dollop of faith to believe that they are all going to be refurbished by end of 2019.

I'm sure there must be contingency planning going on.

 

[47271]

I'm just keen to try to be as sure as possible that the HSTs aren't blamed for delays and cancellations that aren't their fault as trains. If they do fail and cause problems, then so be it, that needs to be heard too.

Too many out there, with other motives, are waiting for them to fail just because they're old trains - and then say "I told you so" etc etc.

On the whole, barring incompetent management, lack of trained staff, and the weather, the HSTs so far seem to have done pretty well in their first week. And there's no way of measuring the positives, such as the commuters who used to stand on a 170 but now have a seat on a HST.

This is fair. After my own false start with a broken down HST at Waverley the two further cancellations that I've been indirectly affected by in the past week were caused by a lack of crew.

However, I think that we still have to accept that the HSTs are likely to be around half as reliable as the 170s per MTIN stats quoted above.

 

[507021]

1 of 27 has been delivered.

Which is only part of the story. All required power cars and trailers are now on lease on ScotRail.

Thanks both.

 

[CEN60]

Does anyone have any pictures of the interiors on the non-refurb HST's that are being used, both first & standard class?

 

[Journeyman]

Does anyone have any pictures of the interiors on the non-refurb HST's that are being used, both first & standard class?

Just Google "gwr hst interior". Bob's your uncle.

 

[CEN60]

Just Google "gwr hst interior". Bob's your uncle.

Ta much

 

[FFB6C1]

Tonight's 1741 Glasgow Queen St to Aberdeen is 170433 sadly. It's a shame the introduction has been so patchy. I managed to get a couple working the Edinburgh to Aberdeen route and they were great.

 

[Northhighland]

It is a bit sad that there have been so many cancellations. Communication with passengers has been poor so many are left with a poor impression. I can’t help feeling this could have been avoided. Surely some of the training could have been shone in advance.

 

[Stoney1979]

This is fair. After my own false start with a broken down HST at Waverley the two further cancellations that I've been indirectly affected by in the past week were caused by a lack of crew.

However, I think that we still have to accept that the HSTs are likely to be around half as reliable as the 170s per MTIN stats quoted above.

I would certainly accept that the HSTs are likely to be less reliable based on those figures.

However, in the meantime, https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-46595785

The weather, RMT/staff training/shortages, signalling problems, take your pick....​

 

[Stoney1979]

Is that a reburbished or classic scarf Mr Hynes has got on? Hard to tell.

Looks like it's seen better days but, no doubt, is still reasonably reliable

 

[snookertam]

The weather forecast was for a high risk of strong winds, snowfall and ice over the Highland Main Line route from 0900 on Sat to 0600 on Sun. The highly detailed forecast and weather data used comes from a specialist meteorological company (Metdesk) and is localised to particular railway routes.

But yeah you’re right, it was a conspiracy.

If were going to be cancelling trains every time there's snow and ice forecasted on the highland main line then there's problems ahead.

 

[haggishunter]

If were going to be cancelling trains every time there's snow and ice forecasted on the highland main line then there's problems ahead.

I've access to various mesoscale forecast models and they were consistent that significant snowfall was going to occur late afternoon (mainly after dusk) and the heaviest falls would be in a curved band that crossed the Central Highlands north of Glenshee and South of CairnGorm - much to the dismay of skiers! That is what happened with around 18" of level snow reported at Dalwhinnie and drifts 3x that plus.

So yes there was a spell of severe weather forecast, but trains were cancelled quite early in the morning blaming a forecast for heavy snow when the snow as not forecast till much later in the day. It smacks of any excuse to cling onto and my impression of things has gone downhill very rapidly in the last few weeks, because it feels like ScotRail are treating people like idiots and a bit more honesty rather than a big boy did it and run away wouldn't go amiss.

Specifically on the Highland Mainline on Saturday, if trains in the morning need to be cancelled for snow forecast in the evening, then are diagrams for the units simply to convoluted? The need to avoid crossing trains to enable points to be locked in place a further indication of inadequate manpower to sustain the service? That everything is now so overstretched that the slightest thing brings a meltdown?

I'm not trying to build up a grand conspiracy, but when I more regularly used the Aberdeen to Inverness line than I do now, I'd quite often made the trip in wintry conditions in a 158 that got there on time (more or less) in weather when the A96 was closed, now in under 20 years it seems to have changed to the railway instead of being the more reliable and robust form of transport, there is now a complete meltdown at the first sign of weather and if not a meltdown only because there has been a planned shutdown.

Now in the case of very severe weather the case for planned shutdowns is stronger today than it was because of the big improvements in accuracy and detail of short term mesoscale forecasting, but it certainly seems that far less severe weather is causing far greater problems than not so long ago. Is lack of resources, ie over intensive use of rolling stock, fewer staff the reason?

It bemuses me to see trains cancelled because of supposedly severe wintry conditions only for rail replacement buses to be run on the A9 over Drumochter and the Slochd!

 

[haggishunter]

I suppose to bring this back on topic rather than around the issues caused by the lack of HSTs, what's their snow performance like!

 

[anamyd]

Had the joy of travelling on the 'classic' HST yesterday evening. Imo its a massive improvement from the 170, as for someone who is of a reasonable height, I find the airline seats quite tight for leg room on the 170/158, whereas on the HST there was quite a lot of room. Think the only real downside is the fact the majority of the public don't understand the untold rules of slam door stock (closing the door if you are last on/last off) - but that is something that will come over time. Also I think it's probably another thing to point out, my friend who has absolutely 0 knowledge of trains commented on how "new and comfortable" the outward journey to Glasgow felt over the return on a 6 car 170.

Obviously it's not an ideal situation for Scotrail at the minute with only one refurb'd HST, sure there probably would of been better options to go down for their new stock but then look at the other issues that other TOC's are having introducing new stock.

You know the Inter7City refurbished carriages will have power operated doors, right...?

 

[Mark62]

This is a total waste of locomotive power. Why do they need to top and tail four or five coaches when there are perfectly adequate run around facilities at every single terminus these new services serve.
A single loco with the four or five coaches can easily cover these diagrams as they aren't exactly demanding.
Why do they need two locomotives on these trains. A hst is basically a loco. And these new hst scotrail sets is effectively like having two class 47 at each end. 125mph running isn't required an any these scotrail diagrams
There are plenty of routes in the uk that are desperate need of full 7/8 rolling stock to alleviate overcrowding and heaven forbid, introduce extra services.
I have seen top and tailed trains at carLise when it's very easy to run around and save money and save a locomotive for other duties. Maybe today's drivers don't know know to hook off.
I've seen top and tailed freights coming through hexham on a regular basis with two loco and one wagon in between. What a waste of power and locomotive rostering.
Running these hst in Scotland is a total waste of money when the same service can easily be provided with one locomotive.
We here that money is limited for our railways, especially when London gets so much investment and public bail outs.
But there's always money to waste on unnecessary diagrams such as the new hst stock in Scotland. Of course the taxpayers entirely subsidise these services.
When will the railways be financially accountable to their paymasters?

 

[Highland37]

Never. Railways lose money Deal with it

Your point is irrelevant anyway as it is lack of coaches that is the issue.

 

[Mark62]

It's totally relevant. The lack Of coaches has nothing to,do,with using two locomotive to pull four coaches
I also believe there are thousands of coaches rotting in the siding at March etc. They can easily be converted. There can't be a stock shortage when thousands of carriages are rotting away. There is a shortage of political will and accountability
It's a total waste of public money to top and tail four carriages when one can be easily used
It's a total waste of public money to use 125mph locomotives on slow Scottish lines.
As stated, there are other severely crowded routes that need this hst stock much more.
Allocating these hst to Scotland is a total waste of public money and a ludicrous example of stock ulitisation.

 

[kilonewton]

This is a total waste of locomotive power. Why do they need to top and tail four or five coaches when there are perfectly adequate run around facilities at every single terminus these new services serve.

Queen Street. Where’s the run around facilities.

I've seen top and tailed freights coming through hexham on a regular basis with two loco and one wagon in between. What a waste of power and locomotive rostering.

Sounds like a flask train. Good idea to have two locos on those to keep them moving!

 

[sprinterguy]

This is a total waste of locomotive power. Why do they need to top and tail four or five coaches when there are perfectly adequate run around facilities at every single terminus these new services serve.

There are no run round facilities in the terminal platforms at Edinburgh Waverley, Glasgow Queen Street, Aberdeen or Inverness. So that's every terminus they will serve, and at Glasgow Queen Street and Inverness that accounts for all the platforms, and there is limited capacity in the through platforms at Edinburgh and Aberdeen.

HSTs offer the flexibility, efficiency, fast turnaround and, to an extent, redundancy of multiple unit operation combined with quiet passenger accommodation. Plus a single loco wouldn't provide the proposed journey time improvements on the Scotrail inter-city services.

125mph running isn't required an any these scotrail diagrams

No, but they will operate at up to 100mph, and be quicker off the mark than the existing Turbostars.

I also believe there are thousands of coaches rotting in the siding at March etc. They can easily be converted. There can't be a stock shortage when thousands of carriages are rotting away.

Thousands? Don't be silly. The whole of the GWR mark 3 fleet totals c.450 vehicles, and even discounting the Scotrail conversions, these are still in the process of going off lease and GWR will be retaining around 50 vehicles themselves. Plus as has clearly been proven by the glacial pace of conversion being undertaken by Wabtec, with major delays being faced by all three customers, they cannot easily be converted.

I've seen top and tailed freights coming through hexham on a regular basis with two loco and one wagon in between. What a waste of power and locomotive rostering.

Off topic, but I assume that you're referring to the seasonal railhead treatment trains. These cover convoluted itinieraries often with many reversals where it is far more operationally convenient to top and tail the formations than to have to find a suitable loop, cross a single loco over and run it round on today's busy passenger railway. Plus I presume you'd probably have to configure the cab-mounted control equipment each time as well. The RHTTs essentially operate as fixed formation push-pull rakes. This has been the case for the best part of thirty years at least.

Running these hst in Scotland is a total waste of money when the same service can easily be provided with one locomotive.

And where would these locos be coming from at relatively short notice (Notwithstanding the current delays to the HST refurbishment programme)?

 

[swaldman]

It's totally relevant. The lack Of coaches has nothing to,do,with using two locomotive to pull four coaches
I also believe there are thousands of coaches rotting in the siding at March etc. They can easily be converted. There can't be a stock shortage when thousands of carriages are rotting away. There is a shortage of political will and accountability
It's a total waste of public money to top and tail four carriages when one can be easily used
It's a total waste of public money to use 125mph locomotives on slow Scottish lines.
As stated, there are other severely crowded routes that need this hst stock much more.
Allocating these hst to Scotland is a total waste of public money and a ludicrous example of stock ulitisation.

I don't think there's any shortage of HST power cars. Once the 80x series are fully rolled out, I imagine there will be plenty going spare. In fact, I imagine they must be one of the most numerous types of loco in the country?

The issue with Mk 3 coaches isn't that there aren't enough of them, it's that not enough have been converted to modern requirements, i.e. power doors and retention toilets.

 

[sprinterguy]

Sounds like a flask train. Good idea to have two locos on those to keep them moving!

Sounds more like RHTT workings to me: Nuclear flask trains are almost exclusively doubleheaded.

 

[BRX]

'Normal' freight trains are sometimes TNT to reduce turnaround times (and presumably allow it where there's no runaround) where they need to reverse direction en route. Most often see this on engineering trains which might have a complicated route into or out of a work site.

 

[trebor79]

To be fair, it does seem a massive waste of fuel to have 2 class 43s on 4 or 5 coaches. I don wonder whether it would make sense to run one of them with the engine shut down, or longer term convert some of the coaches into something like a DBSO so that the sets can run with just one loco without requiring any run around.

 

[marks87]

'Normal' freight trains are sometimes TNT to reduce turnaround times (and presumably allow it where there's no runaround) where they need to reverse direction en route. Most often see this on engineering trains which might have a complicated route into or out of a work site.

Isn't it also usually the case (and do correct me if I'm wrong) that these trains aren't strictly "TNT" because only the front locomotive is doing the work, with the one on the rear dead-in-tow?

And on the topic of HSTs specifically, ScotRail have released proposed renders of the cycle storage space on the planned conversion of 153s for the West Highland Line (https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-and-baggage-vans-for-scotrail.159376/page-26). I mentioned in that thread that it would be great to see such a space in an HST trailer; would that be theoretically possible? I'd imagine the 4-coach sets could take one (since there will be 5-coach ones anyway), but could the 5-coach extent to 6 1) without impacting timings; and 2) still fit in platforms?

 

[sprinterguy]

I don wonder whether it would make sense to run one of them with the engine shut down, or longer term convert some of the coaches into something like a DBSO so that the sets can run with just one loco without requiring any run around.

Not if Scotrail intend to achieve the improvement in journey times on inter-city services that was stipulated by the Invitation to Tender: A 1+4 HST formation would have a similar power to weight ratio to the existing Turbostars, and quite possibly poorer acceleration and adhesion due to fewer powered axles and higher gearing. A 1+5 HST formation would be even worse, and both would be worse still if dragging a second 'dead' power car.