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ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

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Mingulay

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Ah. With all due respect, a lack of life experience is partly behind what you said, then.

A bit patronising with respect.

The bonus culture in the UK is clearly not working. Not just in rail. In fact it’s a problem in many of our larger industries and dare I say banks. Certainly it plays into grievance if large bonuses are paid for indifferent results. I don’t think rail bosses will by any means be the worst offenders.
 
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Esker-pades

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Network Rail publishes the salaries of their senior management. The bonus information is also in the public domain. I didn't realise thinking senior management for ScotRail and Network Rail should forgoe their bonuses for the huge mess that they have created could be quite so controversial. But, no. Instead I'm supposed to have seen their contracts in order to say this. Even then, I'm not in a position to because "I lack the life experience". It's a bad idea to assume the life experiences of people you have only ever had contact with on an online forum.
 

Mingulay

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To bring us back to HST and not bonus chat.

Is there any quick fix to stop leaks. I was told by a conductor training on them the training set was leaking in rain. That can’t enter service. There are some very good roofing membranes like a rubber sheet that Can be bonded to roof together them waterproof pending thier fate. Refurb or retirement ?

Quick tart up of interiors and deep clean and cleaned properly in service . A real focus on train cleaning is needed but hand in hand with a real push on persuading passengers to bin there waste. Should be announced on every train. Passengers must raise there game as well.
 

najaB

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There are some very good roofing membranes like a rubber sheet that Can be bonded to roof together them waterproof pending thier fate. Refurb or retirement ?
I suspect that was also supposed to be addressed in the refurb. If it's only the training set then it's not a big problem, but I don't like the sound of getting soaked on an in-service set.
 

Highlandspring

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Network Rail publishes the salaries of their senior management. The bonus information is also in the public domain. I didn't realise thinking senior management for ScotRail and Network Rail should forgoe their bonuses for the huge mess that they have created could be quite so controversial.
The Network Rail bonus schemes and staff renumeration data are completely irrelevant to the discussion of ScotRail HSTs and the payment (or otherwise) of an Abellio ScotRail management bonus scheme. Some posters are enthusiastically calling on this thread for bonuses due to be paid to Abellio ScotRail management grades to be foregone; all I am asking is whether such a scheme actually exists in the first place. I suspect you’re avoiding the question because you don’t know the answer.
 

47271

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Thank you to Mingulay for bringing us back on topic.

Leaky mk3s or otherwise, we can all agree that the HST programme is in big trouble and management of the consequences of that, however they've come about, has been very poor. We're all suffering it day in day out and it needs sorted ASAP. I think that it's only the festive season that stopping it from becoming a bigger political issue than it is.

Considering the above, niftily on Christmas Eve Transport Scotland served Scotrail with a notice requiring a remedial plan within eight weeks. Given that one of the two triggers for the notice (the other is the very poor condition of the Suburban East service) was to preempt stats describing unacceptable deterioration of service throughout the network, and given that it's public knowledge that a shortage of serviceable diesel stock with appropriately trained crew is the main reason for that network wide deterioration, then a resolution of the HST shambles has to be front and centre in that plan. The plan could include forced abandonment of the HSTs, I'm sure that noone on here knows for certain that it won't?

I've read the franchise agreement, but what I'm not still not clear about are the consequences of the remedial plan being inadequate or if, later, they fail to deliver on it. We have to assume that termination of the franchise is a distinct possibility in these circumstances, and the collapse of the HST project could be the main trigger.

What I'm describing is worst possible case, but at the moment it doesn't feel like we're a million miles away from that.
 

Highland37

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How will a change of operator make a difference? The same people would still be in charge by being TUPEd over.

I accept that people can't be recruited a short notice for a professional position but many of Scotrails issues are basic, such as cleaning.

I wonder how much all these buses are costing.

What's holding up the second set?
 

Mingulay

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I suspect that was also supposed to be addressed in the refurb. If it's only the training set then it's not a big problem, but I don't like the sound of getting soaked on an in-service set.

I’m sure it was in the refurb but given the reality. I’m talking about a low tech superficial remedy to stop leaks from above. My colleague was on a set in service to Dundee and his seat was sodden so in service and leaking Unless it was urine after all !!!
 

chuff chuff

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There was some leakage in the refurb set before it was even in service,the condition of some of the non refurb coaches was in some cases pretty bad.I'd imagine they've picked the best available to run in service but but obviously there not going to be perfect.
 

47271

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How will a change of operator make a difference? The same people would still be in charge by being TUPEd over.

I accept that people can't be recruited a short notice for a professional position but many of Scotrails issues are basic, such as cleaning.

I wonder how much all these buses are costing.

What's holding up the second set?
Oh, I'm not saying that Abellio getting kicked off the franchise would make any difference, although it would be dramatic and satisfy a few people. I'm assuming that services would have to then come under the direct control of Transport Scotland, making the situation even more political than it is at the moment. And, back on topic, we'd be still no closer to having a proper inter city service...

Noone posting here knows, or is sharing, what's holding up the second set, but I suspect that it's the same that's holding up sets 3 to 27 - the GWR mk3s are way more knackered than anyone had bargained for and weren't built to uniform standards in the 1970s.
 

najaB

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Noone posting here knows, or is sharing, what's holding up the second set, but I suspect that it's the same that's holding up sets 3 to 27 - the GWR mk3s are way more knackered than anyone had bargained for and weren't built to uniform standards in the 1970s.
That is supposed to be an advantage of the door solution being used - as I understand it they're basically chopping the ends off the carriages and rebuilding them. Which is a lot easier than trying to fit plug doors into frames that aren't all the same size.
 

jimm

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That is supposed to be an advantage of the door solution being used - as I understand it they're basically chopping the ends off the carriages and rebuilding them. Which is a lot easier than trying to fit plug doors into frames that aren't all the same size.

No, they aren't - cutting off the coach ends and rebuilding them was the method used for the Chiltern Mk3s when the plug doors were fitted.

This project highlighted the issues with the variations in the bodyshells, which was why Wabtec came up with what was supposed to be a quicker and easier alternative method for the HSTs.

The following comes from an article published by Rail in September 2017.

Tait says that lessons have been learned from Chiltern Railways’ automatic door project in 2011: “Each Mk 3 is different in terms of build profile. There were issues with every vehicle - they all have slight variations.”

The sliding doors being fitted are pre-made before being fitted to the coach. A hole is cut into the Mk 3 body side, and the unit is then welded into place.

https://www.railmagazine.com/news/n...s-are-being-transformed-for-scottish-services
 

Highland37

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That is supposed to be an advantage of the door solution being used - as I understand it they're basically chopping the ends off the carriages and rebuilding them. Which is a lot easier than trying to fit plug doors into frames that aren't all the same size.

No it's not but let's not pretend this is some ultra complex job. It's not.
 

43096

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Thank you to Mingulay for bringing us back on topic.

Leaky mk3s or otherwise, we can all agree that the HST programme is in big trouble and management of the consequences of that, however they've come about, has been very poor. We're all suffering it day in day out and it needs sorted ASAP. I think that it's only the festive season that stopping it from becoming a bigger political issue than it is.

Considering the above, niftily on Christmas Eve Transport Scotland served Scotrail with a notice requiring a remedial plan within eight weeks. Given that one of the two triggers for the notice (the other is the very poor condition of the Suburban East service) was to preempt stats describing unacceptable deterioration of service throughout the network, and given that it's public knowledge that a shortage of serviceable diesel stock with appropriately trained crew is the main reason for that network wide deterioration, then a resolution of the HST shambles has to be front and centre in that plan. The plan could include forced abandonment of the HSTs, I'm sure that noone on here knows for certain that it won't?

I've read the franchise agreement, but what I'm not still not clear about are the consequences of the remedial plan being inadequate or if, later, they fail to deliver on it. We have to assume that termination of the franchise is a distinct possibility in these circumstances, and the collapse of the HST project could be the main trigger.

What I'm describing is worst possible case, but at the moment it doesn't feel like we're a million miles away from that.
So if you abandon the HST plan now, and given that the various 156, 158 and 170 sets have now gone and are not coming back, what’s plan B? Because whatever it is it will take longer to implement than carrying on with the HST implementation. I have not yet seen any credible alternative that can now be delivered quicker.
 

najaB

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No, they aren't - cutting off the coach ends and rebuilding them was the method used for the Chiltern Mk3s when the plug doors were fitted.
Right, thanks - got the two methods confused. I knew that they were't following the Chiltern method because of the problems during that project.

In any case, ignoring my brain fart, the point I was making is that the method they are using was chosen because it largely gets around the "no two carriages are the same" problem by making a big hole, putting the door unit in place and then filling in the gaps.

It's a lot simpler to make the carriage fit around the door than it is to fit the door into the carriage.
 

43096

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No it's not but let's not pretend this is some ultra complex job. It's not.
You keep saying this, yet provide no evidence. Indeed, given what we know of the condition of the vehicles - leaking vehicles just one area as shown on this thread - clearly it is a much more difficult task than what was thought.
 

route101

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0939 to Aberdeen was HST from Queen St ,another headed south i seen before 11 too.
 

najaB

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No it's not but let's not pretend this is some ultra complex job. It's not.
No, it's not ultra complex. But it is highly skilled. Manual coachbuilding is a skill that's difficult to find these days, since most trains are assembled from CNC cut and formed subassemblies these days.
 

47271

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So if you abandon the HST plan now, and given that the various 156, 158 and 170 sets have now gone and are not coming back, what’s plan B? Because whatever it is it will take longer to implement than carrying on with the HST implementation. I have not yet seen any credible alternative that can now be delivered quicker.
I'm not promoting abandonment or pretend that I have a better solution, what I'm saying is that if in eight weeks time the remedial plan they come up with still has no real timescale for the HSTs, and services are still struggling to the extent that they are now, then something's going to have to give under political pressure. It might be the HSTs, or it might have to be Abellio.
 

najaB

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then something's going to have to give under political pressure. It might be the HSTs, or it might have to be Abellio.
The HSTs aren't going anywhere - it's a done deal. Eight weeks is enough time to get sufficient staff trained to make cancellations the exception rather than the norm. And hopefully long enough for refurb set number two (and hopefully three) into traffic if the reports of a multitude of ScotRail liveried carriages at Wabtec are to be believed. (It would make sense to install the doors before painting).
 

47271

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The HSTs aren't going anywhere - it's a done deal. Eight weeks is enough time to get sufficient staff trained to make cancellations the exception rather than the norm. And hopefully long enough for refurb set number two (and hopefully three) into traffic if the reports of a multitude of ScotRail liveried carriages at Wabtec are to be believed. (It would make sense to install the doors before painting).
Great, and I wish them every success. Now the plan, and they, need to make it happen.
 

Highlandspring

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If I were Abellio I would run as far and as fast from the ScotRail franchise as possible at the break-off point in 2020.
 

Highlandspring

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The refurbished set has been fine. There were only 2 unrefurbished sets fit for traffic this morning though.
 
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