ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[Deltic1961]

As posted previously, how will that work if a 4 car HST is replaced at the last minute by a 2 car 158 as this happens frequently

 

[hexagon789]

Perhaps OT, but scotrail are tweeting that seat reservations have resumed.

Somebody needs to update the website, because it still explicitly says they aren't available.

 

[Huntergreed]

As posted previously, how will that work if a 4 car HST is replaced at the last minute by a 2 car 158 as this happens frequently

Presumably reservations would simply be cancelled as is normally the case for a set swap.

It would be a tight squeeze, that’s for sure!

 

[hexagon789]

As posted previously, how will that work if a 4 car HST is replaced at the last minute by a 2 car 158 as this happens frequently

Presumably all reservations will be cancelled as was previous practice with most substitutions of significant train formation difference.

 

[Deltic1961]

Fair enough, but like the lack of catering it's not great for a supposed flagship service that costs so much. Not brillaint for tourists, that's for sure.

When we've been abroad in France, Spain and Italy and we've booked seat reservations they've always been fulfilled.

 

[InOban]

https://twitter.com/ScotRail/status/1493191609416138754?t=NQZCqi5X9daOI60m4vv-jQ&s=19

✅ Advance Single tickets and seat reservations are available once again, following the reinstatement of our pre-Christmas timetable today.

You can now buy tickets and book seats for travel on weekdays up to Friday, 6 May 2022. https://t.co/8fwOuFRjvu

 

[XAM2175]

When we've been abroad in France, Spain and Italy and we've booked seat reservations they've always been fulfilled.

It may surprise you to learn that set-swaps also occur in other countries.

 

[Deltic1961]

It may surprise you to learn that set-swaps also occur in other countries.

I get that but it's never happened to me. Scotrail on the other hand are a completely different matter ......

 

[XAM2175]

I get that but it's never happened to me. Scotrail on the other hand are a completely different matter ......

Is it perhaps the case that you travel with Scotrail more often than you do with operators abroad?

 

[hexagon789]

I get that but it's never happened to me. Scotrail on the other hand are a completely different matter ......

But you presumably use ScotRail more often though.

 

[BRX]

Just last week I was booked on a DB ICE in Germany - cancelled and substituted with an IC set and all reservations out the window.

 

[scotraildriver]

I had booked seats on a TGV last year. Double TGV substituted by a single unit. Reservations out the window. This weird notion that such things never happen in "other countries" is just that. All railways throughout the world experience the same issues. At the end of the day all countries railways operate in the same principles, and experience the same problems. It's just that people experience some more than others and develop the idea that somehow their experience is worse than any other country. (Doesn't make it Ok of course, but it happens the world over)

 

[Steddenm]

The Enterprise gets substituted in Ireland quite a bit with either a Translink or Irish Rail DMU.

 

[hexagon789]

14 sets out today, including 4 four-car.

 

[scotrail170407]

43133 re-entered service on Sunday on the 14:38 Queen Street - Elgin, I have this down as having not worked a service since the beginning of September 2019 up until that point!

 

[hexagon789]

I haven't compared to see if the services worked remain the same. Just the diagrammed requirement.

Apparently from the May 2022 timetable change it increases to:

18 diagrams Mon-Fri and Saturdays
12 diagrams on Sundays

 

[Blindtraveler]

18 out of 26 seemed extremely poor fleet utilisation to me. Is this a closet admission that they they simply can't get the reliability that they were hoping for and are doing an awful lot of bet hedging? But 18 diagrams should surely be sufficient for all Aberdeen services and at least 50% of the HML? Somehow doubt the the Inverness Aberdeen will see many of them at this rate.

 

[hooky3]

18 out of 26 seemed extremely poor fleet utilisation to me. Is this a closet admission that they they simply can't get the reliability that they were hoping for and are doing an awful lot of bet hedging? But 18 diagrams should surely be sufficient for all Aberdeen services and at least 50% of the HML? Somehow doubt the the Inverness Aberdeen will see many of them at this rate.

I’m sure the plan as well was to use them on Dundee/Perth services. These plans may now well be dropped though. After the Carmont incident there are now only 25 sets but I agree that 18/25 is still not great availability.

 

[47827]

With current reliability/availability and some sets always seeming to be out of the frame 18 diagrams would be as optimistic as you could go probably. Maybe that could stretch to 20 with no sets away or medium term out of traffic. Even with 16 diagrams though it's rare to have no substitute dmu appearences at some point during the day (often a full diagram). It must be noted though that many failures are smaller stuff or substitutions caused by operational/network incidents causing sets to be out of place. Whilst it's easy to stick a dmu on a hst diagram doing it the other way around can be more tricky as there is better competency of crews on the dmu fleet plus more operationally flexibility.

The diagrams I saw last week (I think) for May, which are subject to change, only had similar levels of hst operation on the Perth to Inverness route but all bar an odd balancing train on the Glasgow/Edinburgh to Aberdeen routes would be booked hst. Via Elgin to Inverness remains a few each way, remaining a secondary Intercity route.

 

[mr-magoo]

How many HSTs do GWR have in total and how many are diagrammed ?

 

[Brissle Girl]

How many HSTs do GWR have in total and how many are diagrammed ?

If rumours on another forum are to be believed then in a few months it will be 0 and 0, with them transferring to Scotrail.

 

[43 302]

If rumours on another forum are to be believed then in a few months it will be 0 and 0, with them transferring to Scotrail.

Wrong on both counts. Obviously.

How many HSTs do GWR have in total and how many are diagrammed ?

They have 16 sets with 34 power cars and a few spare coaches. They have 12 diagrams.

 

[matchmaker]

18 out of 26 seemed extremely poor fleet utilisation to me. Is this a closet admission that they they simply can't get the reliability that they were hoping for and are doing an awful lot of bet hedging? But 18 diagrams should surely be sufficient for all Aberdeen services and at least 50% of the HML? Somehow doubt the the Inverness Aberdeen will see many of them at this rate.

As for reliability - there's a northbound one broken down just north of Stirling at the moment!

 

[Bikeman78]

With current reliability/availability and some sets always seeming to be out of the frame 18 diagrams would be as optimistic as you could go probably. Maybe that could stretch to 20 with no sets away or medium term out of traffic. Even with 16 diagrams though it's rare to have no substitute dmu appearences at some point during the day (often a full diagram).

What are they doing wrong? Five years ago the GWR sets were getting hammered but there was something like 47 diagrams for 54 sets.

 

[TheBigD]

What are they doing wrong? Five years ago the GWR sets were getting hammered but there was something like 47 diagrams for 54 sets.

MML in the mid 1990s were diagramming 13 sets of HSTs from 31 power cars.
2 sets sat at London most of the day so they weren't worked too hard.

 

[47827]

What are they doing wrong? Five years ago the GWR sets were getting hammered but there was something like 47 diagrams for 54 sets.

Just opinion having heard plenty said on the topic, some of it by people closer to the ground regarding operations, but I think they're only just starting to get used to them. It was all hampered and slowed down somewhat for nearly 2 years by the virus woes too. There are also some issues with the maintenance choices and differences with this fleet and its technical spec over others past and present. Great Western past and indeed present (with its fun size castle sets) has 45+ years of experience passed down through the generations of staff from the old hands both in operating and maintaining them albeit with various upgrades and modifications, as well as the MTU project. So Great Western have always been at an advantage, past and present, over this recent Scotrail project. I imagine there's been a mix of enthusiasm over their HST fleet too, whereas staff culture until recently (and probably still is from some of the older crews) in the South West at Great Western is that the things were/maybe still are the bees knees in terms of train design and to work on. In Scotland its been almost exclusively a simple, easier and reliable DMU operating culture with 1 to 2 2/3 car sets buckled together since the early 90s so whilst many staff will embrace this interesting era it will have been daunting for some and possibly an unwelcome step out of the comfort zone for others.

 

[scotraildriver]

The wheel lathe issue discussed previously is still the major barrier to availability.

 

[John Bishop]

Just opinion having heard plenty said on the topic, some of it by people closer to the ground regarding operations, but I think they're only just starting to get used to them. It was all hampered and slowed down somewhat for nearly 2 years by the virus woes too. There are also some issues with the maintenance choices and differences with this fleet and its technical spec over others past and present. Great Western past and indeed present (with its fun size castle sets) has 45+ years of experience passed down through the generations of staff from the old hands both in operating and maintaining them albeit with various upgrades and modifications, as well as the MTU project. So Great Western have always been at an advantage, past and present, over this recent Scotrail project. I imagine there's been a mix of enthusiasm over their HST fleet too, whereas staff culture until recently (and probably still is from some of the older crews) in the South West at Great Western is that the things were/maybe still are the bees knees in terms of train design and to work on. In Scotland its been almost exclusively a simple, easier and reliable DMU operating culture with 1 to 2 2/3 car sets buckled together since the early 90s so whilst many staff will embrace this interesting era it will have been daunting for some and possibly an unwelcome step out of the comfort zone for others.

They’ve ironed out a lot of issues since the start but the bulk of the issues these days are just as a result of the old technology. The trains are old, dirty, smelly, tired and past their best in all honesty. Most of the crews don’t like working them bar a few keen railway enthusiasts but that’s about it. They’re nice inside and a pleasant comfortable journey can be had but that’s about it.

I can’t see availability improving any going forward and any hope of running 18 daily sets after May is just pure fantasy. They need replaced with something more modern, not least for the environmental/ climate aspect.

 

[47827]

Most of the crews don’t like working them bar a few keen railway enthusiasts but that’s about it. They’re nice inside and a pleasant comfortable journey can be had but that’s about it.

Yes. That's exactly what you get though when staff have spent decades working simple, but not always suitable DMU trains (albeit reliable ones). These sorts of cultures of "not liking working" xyz trains, usually because its too far the opposite of what you are used to and actually involves a bit more knowledge (true to say of most BR era locomotives plus HST power cars) and sometimes aggravated by the perception that old feeling/old in age is bad, will never give optimum reliability to any fleet. Note Scottish crews at LNER will probably offer a slightly different view of the HST given their excellent reputation on the ECML for many years and only recent retirement. As the minority of experienced and competent drivers involved in the likes of the Cumbrian Coast DRS sets will and did confirm, any issues around the age of the kit and its added gremlins over modern stock were greatly aggravated by staff attitudes and not all black and white. It's funny how the Great Western culture is nowhere near as against the HST concept amongst its crews as its in more in the blood to operate such trains.

I'm not saying they can go on forever but they were in part at least a smart move to offer an improved product to the public in Scotland and from what it appears that was achieved so far as the individual set and its booked diagrams behave on the day. All the other arguments against them are well known and the Scottish government and Scotrail will be aware of them and no doubt act to get rid when time and funds permit, possibly when the wires are extended again.

 

[Steven_G]

I think the whole reason the project was based on was taking revenue away from the 800 operators on a very profitable route for commuters and tourists alike.

2030 is the end for them isn’t it? The carbon neutral railway target.

800’s will be purchased I reckon but it is the variant that needs to be worked out. Tri-mode might need wires to Perth for example.