Scottish Electrification updates & discussion

[najaB]

Anyone know the steepest gradient an 88 would face on diesel if it were doing sleeper duties?

Don't know about steepest, but 1 in 60 for 20 miles is a heck of a long slog heading south out of Inverness.

 

[InOban]

On the HML I think it's 1 in 70.

 

[johnw]

Scotland does seem to get a lot of electrification compared to England.

 

[route101]

I think it would be quite a shock if improvement to the EK line wasn't part of CP6.

Hopefully the Almond chord will be approved to, otherwise Edinburgh Gateway will remain a bit of a white elephant for the foreseeable future.

Would electrification have any effect of reopening passenger services on the South Sub?

Not heard any firm plans of the EK line though . Plus what stock will be used ?

 

[gingertom]

Not heard any firm plans of the EK line though . Plus what stock will be used ?

ScotRail could exercise the option for 10 more 3 car 385s. They would be a good unit for the gradients on the route and ten would cover the diagrams.

 

[Highlandspring]

Scotland does seem to get a lot of electrification compared to England.

The Scottish Government has a completely different outlook and set of priorities from the Westminster government. Investment in rail infrastructure is seen as part of a wider program of social improvement. The Transport Scotland website sets out the case well -

Rail offers vital public services, connecting people with destinations and goods with markets. The Scottish Government’s Scotland’s Economic Strategy focuses public services on improving competitiveness and tackling inequality, to support sustainable economic growth for all.

Rail supports Scotland’s economic competitiveness by:

• offering fast routes to areas of employment for commuters
• linking cities in Scotland and the rest of the UK to help make Scotland a more attractive place for businesses
• facilitating the movement of goods, and of consumers to retailers
• connecting tourists to world-famous activities and destinations

Transport Scotland will seek to achieve these outcomes through investment in rail infrastructure, station facilities and new technologies.

 

[Stopper]

I’d imagine the EK would eventually get 385s, with the stock coming off the Cathcart Circle lines (who will get the 385s originally). It would be a waste to have 318s, 320s or 334s on the EK line. Either 385s or 380s would be ideal.

 

[route101]

I’d imagine the EK would eventually get 385s, with the stock coming off the Cathcart Circle lines (who will get the 385s originally). It would be a waste to have 318s, 320s or 334s on the EK line. Either 385s or 380s would be ideal.

If EK was electrified right now , id imagine we would be seeing 314s , 318s and 320s /

 

[deltic08]

Don't know about steepest, but 1 in 60 for 20 miles is a heck of a long slog heading south out of Inverness.

You are correct but not continuous. Believe it or not once you reach the single section at Culloden it is down hill over the viaduct for southbound trains then 1 in 60 again up to Moy and again from Tomatin up to Slochd Summit.
Does the Inverness sleeper portion load to 8 mark3s? I think the seated coaches are 32 ton mark2s so you can recalculate 4x40 tons plus 4x32 tons. Load 288 tons.
If electrification is extended to Perth, there will be no need to travel via Edinburgh. Continue through Carstairs, Motherwell and Cumbernauld to Stirling where the West Highland portion can be detached and 88 hauled to Fort William using 25kv nearly all the way to Helensburgh Upper and diesel from there onwards. At 2x40 tons plus 3x32 tons load this should be within the capability of the loco.
The Aberdeen portion is also detached at Stirling and doubles back to run via the Forth Bridge and Fife as now.
The Inverness portion continues on electric to Dunblane or Perth then diesel over the HML.
It reduces the loco pool by one as one loco is used from Euston throughout to Inverness instead of two.

 

[snowball]

Prompted by the above post, I see from Google satellite view that Mossend to Garnqueen North Junction is electrified. Was this done as part of wiring to Cumbernauld?

 

[deltic08]

On the HML I think it's 1 in 70.

You think wrong. 1 in 60 out of inverness and up both sides of Slochd.

 

[Stopper]

Prompted by the above post, I see from Google satellite view that Mossend to Garnqueen North Junction is electrified. Was this done as part of wiring to Cumbernauld?

I believe the wires have been up from Mossend to just south of Gartsherrie South Jn (at least) for ages. Recently in the new Cumbernauld electrification scheme, the wires were extended right through to join up with the Cumbernauld line at the same time.

 

[snowball]

I believe the wires have been up from Mossend to just south of Gartsherrie South Jn (at least) for ages.

Thanks. I suppose that makes sense as I now see there's a freight terminal there. I had somehow got the idea into my head that the wires ended at Mossend.

 

[davetheguard]

Is there a date in the public domain when the Scottish government is due to announce what, if any, routes it intends to pay to electrify in the next Control Period?

 

[InOban]

You think wrong. 1 in 60 out of inverness and up both sides of Slochd.

I knew it was much steeper than the 1:100 which other posters were using in their calculations. But thanks.

 

[gingertom]

I knew it was much steeper than the 1:100 which other posters were using in their calculations. But thanks.

1 in 60 is hardly moderate gradient. Balancing speed for an 88 at the head of a 400 tonne train (including the 88) on a 1 on 60 is 24mph. I suspect that would be a tad's too slow for CS.

 

[jyte]

1 in 60 is hardly moderate gradient. Balancing speed for an 88 at the head of a 400 tonne train (including the 88) on a 1 on 60 is 24mph. I suspect that would be a tad's too slow for CS.

Yikes.

Anyone willing to spitball the cost of electrifying only short, steep sections where the 88's relative lack of power on diesel means it will travel below line speed?

Pleasedontkillmeimnotadvocatingfordiscontinuouselectrification

 

[najaB]

Anyone willing to spitball the cost of electrifying only short, steep sections where the 88's relative lack of power on diesel means it will travel below line speed?

Not that much less than electrifying the whole line. The real big costs are providing the feed, clearing structures and doing signal immunisation - most of which you'd still need to do.

 

[jyte]

Not that much less than electrifying the whole line. The real big costs are providing the feed, clearing structures and doing signal immunisation - most of which you'd still need to do.

Thought so.....

 

[gingertom]

Not that much less than electrifying the whole line. The real big costs are providing the feed, clearing structures and doing signal immunisation - most of which you'd still need to do.

CS would probably still use 92s in that case. Cheaper to lease.

 

[jyte]

CS would probably still use 92s in that case. Cheaper to lease.

Not having to train drivers on a new motive power type would be a nice bonus.

 

[och aye]

I believe the wires have been up from Mossend to just south of Gartsherrie South Jn (at least) for ages. Recently in the new Cumbernauld electrification scheme, the wires were extended right through to join up with the Cumbernauld line at the same time.

The Mossend International Railfreight Terminal looks like it will be quite a large development once completed:

http://www.mossendrailfreight.com/

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Scotland does seem to get a lot of electrification compared to England.

Thank god

 

[Aictos]

Thank god

You took the words right out of my mouth! Thanks Meatloaf

 

[RLBH]

Does the Inverness sleeper portion load to 8 mark3s? I think the seated coaches are 32 ton mark2s so you can recalculate 4x40 tons plus 4x32 tons. Load 288 tons.

The timing loads (as per RTT) are 595 tonnes for the full rake, 385 tonnes for the Inverness portion, 350 tonnes for the Aberdeen portion, and 210 tonnes for the Fort William portion. I imagine that the portion weights take into account the possibility of individual portions being cancelled and sent elsewhere, and sleepers being switched between the Fort William and Aberdeen portions. Both the Edinburgh and Glasgow portions have timing loads of 595 tonnes, so there's definitely provision for diverting the full rake to either terminus.

 

[deltic08]

The timing loads (as per RTT) are 595 tonnes for the full rake, 385 tonnes for the Inverness portion, 350 tonnes for the Aberdeen portion, and 210 tonnes for the Fort William portion. I imagine that the portion weights take into account the possibility of individual portions being cancelled and sent elsewhere, and sleepers being switched between the Fort William and Aberdeen portions. Both the Edinburgh and Glasgow portions have timing loads of 595 tonnes, so there's definitely provision for diverting the full rake to either terminus.

In that case class 88s could be used on the Fort William portion from Stirling if hire charges fitted financially.

 

[InOban]

In that case class 88s could be used on the Fort William portion from Stirling if hire charges fitted financially.

The 73 has RA6, I believe, and is able to take the sleeper into Oban when necessary. I think the 88 would not. Heavy locos access FW under grandfather rights, with extreme speed limits.

 

[gingertom]

Not that much less than electrifying the whole line. The real big costs are providing the feed, clearing structures and doing signal immunisation - most of which you'd still need to do.

I'd like to see much more doubling of the HML as without it the benefits of electrification are marginal.

 

[deltic08]

The 73 has RA6, I believe, and is able to take the sleeper into Oban when necessary. I think the 88 would not. Heavy locos access FW under grandfather rights, with extreme speed limits.

There is always something to bugger up a good idea.

 

[theblackwatch]

Please note I have moved 26 posts relating to the HML upgrade to https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/highland-mainline-upgrade.162101