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Scottish Electrification updates & discussion

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benbristow

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I know there’s a peak service which only stops at Hairmyres and Clarkston.

Even if you could get 4tph with 2 of those skipping Thorntonhall, Busby and Pollokshaws West & Crossmyloof, maybe others, you’d have a decent service.

I’m not sure how likely it is that EK will get 4tph AND 8-coach trains, it’ll likely be one or the other. 4tph with 6-car trains would be a huge improvement as it is.

Busby and the single track onwards is the real choking point. Sometimes end up sitting there for 10 minutes or so waiting for another train to come through. Sometimes even get 2 trains coming through. It's very varied.
 
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route101

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Busby and the single track onwards is the real choking point. Sometimes end up sitting there for 10 minutes or so waiting for another train to come through. Sometimes even get 2 trains coming through. It's very varied.

Been turfed off at Busby before ! The low cost option would be another passing loop .
 

gingertom

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Been turfed off at Busby before ! The low cost option would be another passing loop .
The passing loop outside Hairmyres looks as though it could be extended quite considerably towards Busby. When the link road to the Eaglesham bypass was being built the bridge over the track was made wide enough for double track and high enough for electrification, hpwever there are many arch bridges on the route that will need attention/replacement. Maybe not so low cost, Hairmyres station would need to have a second platform built and an accessible bridge. It's been 20 years since I was there last and it was really busy back then- I shudder to think what it is like now.
 

YorkshireBear

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Electrification to Perth does act as a stepping stone. I think it all falls under baby steps, let's keep the programme going. Which is what we all want. Although I agree there are other priorities which should come higher.
 

Aictos

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One wonders if when Perth does get wired up if the Inverness and Aberdeen portions of the Highland Sleeper couldn't join/detach there instead with the Fort William portion continuing to join/detach at Edinburgh?

However baby steps with continuous electrification is good and we should ensure there are no diesel islands in the Central Belt first which is possible for one the electrification of the Borders railway, this would be good for the railway but also good for the Scottish Govt to be seen as being both pro green and also it gives them to chance to expand on increasing seats etc
 

Southsider

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The passing loop outside Hairmyres looks as though it could be extended quite considerably towards Busby. When the link road to the Eaglesham bypass was being built the bridge over the track was made wide enough for double track and high enough for electrification, hpwever there are many arch bridges on the route that will need attention/replacement. Maybe not so low cost, Hairmyres station would need to have a second platform built and an accessible bridge. It's been 20 years since I was there last and it was really busy back then- I shudder to think what it is like now.
I’ve mentioned this before, there are not that many bridges on the line and not all of them are arched so, from a structures point of view, one of the easier ones. Of those that are arched, the one at the north end of Clarkston station carries a main road which would require a lengthy diversion unless the opportunity was taken to build a new bridge adjacent and on a better alignment (the current one is difficult for buses and HGVs to negotiate resulting in a fatality a couple of years back) then demolish the arched one. The big worry would be the bridge at Crossmyloof that was rebuilt a number of years ago, does it meet the new clearance regulations?
 

Altnabreac

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One wonders if when Perth does get wired up if the Inverness and Aberdeen portions of the Highland Sleeper couldn't join/detach there instead with the Fort William portion continuing to join/detach at Edinburgh?

That's not going to happen because calls at Leuchars, Kirkcaldy and Inverkeithing are franchise requirements for the Sleeper train. I believe the Leuchars stop does pretty good business with golf tourists for St Andrews. You'd also need to employ another staff member to help with the shunt at Perth.

However baby steps with continuous electrification is good and we should ensure there are no diesel islands in the Central Belt first which is possible for one the electrification of the Borders railway, this would be good for the railway but also good for the Scottish Govt to be seen as being both pro green and also it gives them to chance to expand on increasing seats etc

Remember Borders Rail is only a 2tph service so it is likely to be better to electrify other lines with a more frequent service. That places it well behind Fife Circle and Dunblane - Perth - Dundee - Aberdeen in the pecking order. There might also be logic in electrifying the Intercity Inverness services ahead of Borders depending on stock replacement timings. Either way I don't see Borders line being an electrification priority for some time to come.
 

marks87

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One wonders if when Perth does get wired up if the Inverness and Aberdeen portions of the Highland Sleeper couldn't join/detach there instead with the Fort William portion continuing to join/detach at Edinburgh?

You'd be skipping all of Fife which would be politically awkward.

If however the wires get to Aberdeen before they get to Fife then there might be some pressure to re-route the sleepers to avoid long stretches of diesel under the wires - send the Aberdeen portion all-electric via Stirling, and the Inverness via Ladybank. You'd then only miss out Leuchars, which could be solved by an early-morning connecting departure from Dundee.
 

Indigo Soup

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You'd be skipping all of Fife which would be politically awkward.
If you really wanted to split at Stirling, the Aberdeen portion could head off south again to run via Falkirk Grahamston, Winchburgh and Dalmeny. I'm not sure it would offer much of an advantage over splitting at Edinburgh though.
 

gingertom

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One wonders if when Perth does get wired up if the Inverness and Aberdeen portions of the Highland Sleeper couldn't join/detach there instead with the Fort William portion continuing to join/detach at Edinburgh?

However baby steps with continuous electrification is good and we should ensure there are no diesel islands in the Central Belt first which is possible for one the electrification of the Borders railway, this would be good for the railway but also good for the Scottish Govt to be seen as being both pro green and also it gives them to chance to expand on increasing seats etc
on the Fort William sleeper, it is possible to change to electric traction at Dumbarton Central if CS wanted to but is too much faffing about to be realistic. Now, if a class 88 could have had the bigger diesel engine, we would have a different story.
 

route101

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The passing loop outside Hairmyres looks as though it could be extended quite considerably towards Busby. When the link road to the Eaglesham bypass was being built the bridge over the track was made wide enough for double track and high enough for electrification, hpwever there are many arch bridges on the route that will need attention/replacement. Maybe not so low cost, Hairmyres station would need to have a second platform built and an accessible bridge. It's been 20 years since I was there last and it was really busy back then- I shudder to think what it is like now.

Hairmyres is a very busy station now , quite often see more people getting on at Hairmyres than at East Kilbride . Theres a lot of new housing around there . Even though the 201 bus serves the station i dont see many people using it for station , more the hospital.
 

route101

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on the Fort William sleeper, it is possible to change to electric traction at Dumbarton Central if CS wanted to but is too much faffing about to be realistic. Now, if a class 88 could have had the bigger diesel engine, we would have a different story.

Would the elecctric locos be cleared through low level?
Come to think of it was there a charter recently on a 86 out to Dumbarton?
 

route101

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I’ve mentioned this before, there are not that many bridges on the line and not all of them are arched so, from a structures point of view, one of the easier ones. Of those that are arched, the one at the north end of Clarkston station carries a main road which would require a lengthy diversion unless the opportunity was taken to build a new bridge adjacent and on a better alignment (the current one is difficult for buses and HGVs to negotiate resulting in a fatality a couple of years back) then demolish the arched one. The big worry would be the bridge at Crossmyloof that was rebuilt a number of years ago, does it meet the new clearance regulations?

Yes , i recall that bridge was to allow 390s to pass . Surely its high enough , will need to look next time.
 

edwin_m

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on the Fort William sleeper, it is possible to change to electric traction at Dumbarton Central if CS wanted to but is too much faffing about to be realistic.
Electric working of the portions north of wherever they are split/joined would need another electric loco for each portion except the first. These diagrams would only do a very small mileage each night, and diesels would still be needed north of the end of electrification.
 

380101

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Yes , i recall that bridge was to allow 390s to pass . Surely its high enough , will need to look next time.

No chance of seeing a class 390 at Crossmyloof just yet! need to get the wires up first all the way to Gretna Junction! 221s do use it as a diversionary route though.
 

route101

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No chance of seeing a class 390 at Crossmyloof just yet! need to get the wires up first all the way to Gretna Junction! 221s do use it as a diversionary route though.

Been on a 390 on diversion back in 2010 . With a 57 on the front
 

railjock

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That's not going to happen because calls at Leuchars, Kirkcaldy and Inverkeithing are franchise requirements for the Sleeper train. I believe the Leuchars stop does pretty good business with golf tourists for St Andrews. You'd also need to employ another staff member to help with the shunt at Perth.



Remember Borders Rail is only a 2tph service so it is likely to be better to electrify other lines with a more frequent service. That places it well behind Fife Circle and Dunblane - Perth - Dundee - Aberdeen in the pecking order. There might also be logic in electrifying the Intercity Inverness services ahead of Borders depending on stock replacement timings. Either way I don't see Borders line being an electrification priority for some time to come.
In that sequence I think Borders Railway then becomes the only commuter route out of Edinburgh that is diesel?
 

NotATrainspott

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In that sequence I think Borders Railway then becomes the only commuter route out of Edinburgh that is diesel?

Yes, but not for long. It only makes sense having diesels on the Borders Railway as long as there are other similar services heading out of Edinburgh into Fife. Once they go electric, there's no point keeping a tiny DMU depot open.
 

Aictos

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Yes, but not for long. It only makes sense having diesels on the Borders Railway as long as there are other similar services heading out of Edinburgh into Fife. Once they go electric, there's no point keeping a tiny DMU depot open.

However if they did electrified the Borders Railway they could change the diagrams around so the North Berwicks terminated at Edinburgh and then formed a Tweedbank service so basically a North Berwick to Tweedbank via Edinburgh service as diagrams can and do change, yes it means North Berwick loses services north of Edinburgh but there's plenty of services onto Glasgow that can be used especially as there are 4 routes between the cities.

The Fife services would then terminate at Edinburgh via the Fife Circle as I would have thought that they would be amongst the last to be converted to EMU operation on the account of the issues around the Forth Bridge.

In any case, they should electrify what they can and the Borders Railway should be fairly simple to wire up seeing as the majority of it is new built anyway.
 

railjock

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However if they did electrified the Borders Railway they could change the diagrams around so the North Berwicks terminated at Edinburgh and then formed a Tweedbank service so basically a North Berwick to Tweedbank via Edinburgh service as diagrams can and do change, yes it means North Berwick loses services north of Edinburgh but there's plenty of services onto Glasgow that can be used especially as there are 4 routes between the cities.

The Fife services would then terminate at Edinburgh via the Fife Circle as I would have thought that they would be amongst the last to be converted to EMU operation on the account of the issues around the Forth Bridge.

In any case, they should electrify what they can and the Borders Railway should be fairly simple to wire up seeing as the majority of it is new built anyway.
You would also lose the peak hour 'crossrail' services as well. These are pretty well used by commuters.
 

deltic08

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on the Fort William sleeper, it is possible to change to electric traction at Dumbarton Central if CS wanted to but is too much faffing about to be realistic. Now, if a class 88 could have had the bigger diesel engine, we would have a different story.
I thought 88s were supposed to move 1500 tons on diesel. They should be able to move 250 tons of sleepers on the West Highland at a reasonable uphill speed surely.
If it is a possibility, then wires need extending to Helensburgh Upper.
 

Altnabreac

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In that sequence I think Borders Railway then becomes the only commuter route out of Edinburgh that is diesel?

Yes. I would expect Borders Rail to definitely be the last diesel commuter trains into Edinburgh Waverley and possibly the last regular diesel trains to serve Edinburgh depending on what stock might be chosen to replace HSTs in around 2030 or so (quite possibly hybrids leaving Borders as the final diesel trains in Edinburgh).
 

GRALISTAIR

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Yes. I would expect Borders Rail to definitely be the last diesel commuter trains into Edinburgh Waverley and possibly the last regular diesel trains to serve Edinburgh depending on what stock might be chosen to replace HSTs in around 2030 or so (quite possibly hybrids leaving Borders as the final diesel trains in Edinburgh).

When I lie awake at night I think the Scottish government are more enlightened. I have the vision that by 2030 a lot more of the Scotland network will have wires and that the HSTs will be replaced by bimodes cascaded from the MML etc where they will get all electric because the MML and balance of the GWML etc will get electrified. Now that would be joined up thinking.
 

jyte

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I thought 88s were supposed to move 1500 tons on diesel. They should be able to move 250 tons of sleepers on the West Highland at a reasonable uphill speed surely.
If it is a possibility, then wires need extending to Helensburgh Upper.
I keep seeing the claim that an 88 can haul an 8 car mk3 consist at 40mph on a moderate against gradient.
 

och aye

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A redoubled, electrified East Kilbride line with platforms extended to take 8 x 23m coaches should be the number one priority for CP6 (closely followed by Lentran Loop and Almond Chord).
I think it would be quite a shock if improvement to the EK line wasn't part of CP6.

Hopefully the Almond chord will be approved to, otherwise Edinburgh Gateway will remain a bit of a white elephant for the foreseeable future.

Would electrification have any effect of reopening passenger services on the South Sub?
 

InOban

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I can think of no circumstances in which restarting passenger services on the South sub will make any sense.
 

gingertom

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I keep seeing the claim that an 88 can haul an 8 car mk3 consist at 40mph on a moderate against gradient.
just done the maths. Assuming a loaded mk3 is 40 tonnes and the loco is 80 (close enough for back of envelope calculation).
400 tonnes going up a 1 in 100 requires 40kn of tractive effort, class 88 on diesel gives 391kn at 4mph, 39.1kn at 40mph, which is close enough to 40. Pretty sluggish but it can do it.
 

edwin_m

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I thought 88s were supposed to move 1500 tons on diesel. They should be able to move 250 tons of sleepers on the West Highland at a reasonable uphill speed surely.
If it is a possibility, then wires need extending to Helensburgh Upper.
The diesel and electric modes on the 88 drive through the same traction motors so the 88 on diesel should be able to haul any train it can on electric. However as speed increases the much lower power available on diesel causes the tractive effort to reduce much more quickly than on electric. So it will be much slower on diesel.
 

jyte

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just done the maths. Assuming a loaded mk3 is 40 tonnes and the loco is 80 (close enough for back of envelope calculation).
400 tonnes going up a 1 in 100 requires 40kn of tractive effort, class 88 on diesel gives 391kn at 4mph, 39.1kn at 40mph, which is close enough to 40. Pretty sluggish but it can do it.
Interesting.

Anyone know the steepest gradient an 88 would face on diesel if it were doing sleeper duties?
 
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