Scottish Electrification updates & discussion

[clc]

I agree that East Kilbride should be the no.1 priority. The line has seen a drop in ridership recently against the general trend which I assume is due to overcrowding and unreliability. I personally know two people who’ve stopped using the line to commute to work for those reasons. They now take the bus.

 

[route101]

The idea that a brand new train needs to be specifically cleared to operate on a route for which it was designed? You couldn't make it up.

It's bad enough that decades after a standard BR gauge was created it is still necessary to modify trains or platforms to allow trains such as the 365 to run E-G or the 158 to use the WHL.

Is it the doors on 170s and 158s that have problems on WHL and EK/GSW lines?

 

[route101]

The goal for EK should be 4tph electrics, possibly 2 semi-fast and 2 stoppers, whether that means redoubling throughout or not.

Ive got an old timetable from 1989 and back then it was 1 x stopper and 1 fast , no sunday services . Even 3 TPH would be a big improvement . For me is having earlier train into central for 6 and later trains out of central . Wonder what stock would be used ? New order or existing . Lengthening to 8 car platform lengths would be wise for the future.

 

[route101]

I agree that East Kilbride should be the no.1 priority. The line has seen a drop in ridership recently against the general trend which I assume is due to overcrowding and unreliability. I personally know two people who’ve stopped using the line to commute to work for those reasons. They now take the bus.

Interesting , for me i occasionally use the line and the services are a lot busier off peak now . Stations in EK have poor onward connections and a lot of people drive or taxi to the stations.

 

[InOban]

Is it the doors on 170s and 158s that have problems on WHL and EK/GSW lines?

In the case of the 170, I think that wheelbase of the bogies is too long to get round the tight bends, the ones with check rails. In the case of the 158, I think it's the doors.

 

[InOban]

The priority for electrification must always be suburban services with frequent stops, where regenerative braking pays off. Hence East Kilbride.

 

[route101]

The priority for electrification must always be suburban services with frequent stops, where regenerative braking pays off. Hence East Kilbride.

EMUs would be quicker on the uphill slog to EK surely

 

[Stopper]

Ive got an old timetable from 1989 and back then it was 1 x stopper and 1 fast , no sunday services . Even 3 TPH would be a big improvement . For me is having earlier train into central for 6 and later trains out of central . Wonder what stock would be used ? New order or existing . Lengthening to 8 car platform lengths would be wise for the future.

I know there’s a peak service which only stops at Hairmyres and Clarkston.

Even if you could get 4tph with 2 of those skipping Thorntonhall, Busby and Pollokshaws West & Crossmyloof, maybe others, you’d have a decent service.

I’m not sure how likely it is that EK will get 4tph AND 8-coach trains, it’ll likely be one or the other. 4tph with 6-car trains would be a huge improvement as it is.

 

[gordonjahn]

I also think it would be strange to electrify only to Perth at the moment since I don’t think there are any Glasgow to Perth terminators. It would be more useful electrifying to Dundee so that at least the Dundee to Glasgow stoppers could be electric..

There are early morning (0701 ex Perth) and late evening services between Glasgow and Perth (2337 ex Queen St) but that's clearly not a single diagram. Is it Arbroath - Glasgow the new "local" services are meant to be? That still needs Dunblane to Perth to reach Dundee as you suggest so if it's rolling electrification, Dunblane to Perth is a useful step before heading over to Dundee at which point Fife rears its head again.

Electrification Dunblane to Perth would be useful for the IETs too though.

 

[route101]

I know there’s a peak service which only stops at Hairmyres and Clarkston.

Even if you could get 4tph with 2 of those skipping Thorntonhall, Busby and Pollokshaws West & Crossmyloof, maybe others, you’d have a decent service.

I’m not sure how likely it is that EK will get 4tph AND 8-coach trains, it’ll likely be one or the other. 4tph with 6-car trains would be a huge improvement as it is.

Yeah one in the morning and one return , in the past there as Busby starters/Terminators and one service that omitted Pollokshaws West and Crossmyloof

 

[Stopper]

Dunblane-Perth is a bad idea right now, not because of there being no Perth terminators, but because I believe Perth station is due to be remodelled in the near future. If you’re going to do Dunblane-Perth, you might as well wire all the way to Dundee or Arbroath.

 

[59CosG95]

Dunblane-Perth is a bad idea right now, not because of there being no Perth terminators, but because I believe Perth station is due to be remodelled in the near future. If you’re going to do Dunblane-Perth, you might as well wire all the way to Dundee or Arbroath.

I believe that wiring after the Perth remodelling was implicit in Hynes' statement, even though he didn't strictly state so.

 

[gingertom]

I believe that wiring after the Perth remodelling was implicit in Hynes' statement, even though he didn't strictly state so.

plus it means the rolling programme of electrification continues to roll in manageable chunks. Dundee/Arbroath is a sensible extension of the wires but probably not feasible in CP6 with the pressures of all the other interventions on the finance available- patience is a virtue!

 

[Aictos]

If anything, the next route that ought to see wires ought to be the South Sub because it's importance as a diversionary route into and past Edinburgh should not be understated which I would hope would be considered as the final part of EGIP especially if it's possible to reopen some of the stations as well on this line.

I don't believe we should consider electrifying the Fife Circle despite the fact that I am strongly in favour of doing so until the issue of the Forth Bridge can be solved at which point hopefully we will see the wires extended from Stirling to Dundee via Dunblane and also from Haymarket to Dundee via Cupar including the Fife Circle.

 

[Class 170101]

But you could extend the Dunblane services to terminate at Perth. There aren't great connections from Dunblane to the north. Sometimes you have to double back via Stirling.

As for the South Suburban wiring that may come in useful for the remodelling east of Edinburgh Waverley as a diversionary route.

 

[Stopper]

But you could extend the Dunblane services to termminate at Perth. There aren't great connections from Dunblane to the north. Sometimes you have to double back via Stirling.

As for the South Suburban wiring that may come in useful for the remodelling east of Edinburgh Waverley as a diversionary route.

Dunblane services are already horrendously unreliable, and are often terminated at Stirling. Extending them to Perth would probably make that even worse considering it would add a considerable chunk onto the journey.

Dunblane will get at least an hourly service to Perth once the new Dundee/Arbroath semi-fasts start.

PS - I’m not against wires to Perth, but I don’t think it’s necessary until the wires are going up to at least Dundee, so I would rather CP6 focused on other more necessary options.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Extending Dunblane services to Perth doesn't necessarily make them less reliable. If the turnaround time is longer at Perth, it might actually improve reliability. After Perth is remodelled it should be a good place to turn trains back and, maybe, stable them overnight for improved early and late services.

Something I often forget about Dunblane-Perth is that the number of track kilometres involved is not particularly high. Since it'd be the first time electrification reaches beyond the Central Belt it sounds like a big deal but it's actually a comparable project to the Shotts line, rather than a grand project like Weaver Junction to Glasgow. The line doesn't have a lot of structures or other complicating factors, so most of the difficulty experienced further south won't happen.

 

[Stopper]

Given the traffic at Newbridge Junction is going to get even heavier soon, I doubt they’re going to want to send the Dunblane trains another half an hour up the line. I can’t see any way it would improve reliability.

 

[47271]

="NotATrainspott, post: 3574301The line doesn't have a lot of structures or other complicating factors, so most of the difficulty experienced further south won't happen.

Hilton Jn and the Moncrieffe Tunnel are massively complicating factors?

 

[gingertom]

Hilton Jn and the Moncrieffe Tunnel are massively complicating factors?

can't see Hilton jn being a massively complicating factor. In fact it might be an advantageous place to install a power feeder, as Fife will get done eventually, one hopes. To my untrained eye Moncrieffe tunnel looks as if it needs track lowering and some refurbishment. I'd be more concerned about the number of level crossings that will require bringing up to standard or closed.

 

[Highlandspring]

After Perth is remodelled it should be a good place to turn trains back and, maybe, stable them overnight for improved early and late services.

Perth already washes, fuels, CETs and stables something like 18 sets overnight. And - in my opinion - that’s one of the main reasons behind the regular SPADs and operating irregularities there; it’s a main line station used (and treated) as a depot. The sooner it gets proper dedicated facilities the better.

 

[Hackneyite]

Is it likely that the Kings X - Stirling services will be electric trains after the wiring is complete?

 

[gsnedders]

Is it likely that the Kings X - Stirling services will be electric trains after the wiring is complete?

They'll be Class 800 bimodes; LNER isn't keeping any HSTs so they'll be the only (partly) diesel powered stock they have.

 

[Hackneyite]

They'll be Class 800 bimodes; LNER isn't keeping any HSTs so they'll be the only (partly) diesel powered stock they have.

Thanks!

 

[gingertom]

Is it likely that the Kings X - Stirling services will be electric trains after the wiring is complete?

no reason it can't be an 801, assuming of course that they have planned enough juice to power it and the rest of the electric services in the area.

 

[Stopper]

Isn’t the plan for the Chieftain bimodes to run on the wires as far as Dunblane before changing? Or are they only able to convert to diesel whilst stopped at a station (aka Stirling)?

ETA - so I’d imagine the Stirling services would be run entirely electric

 

[Indigo Soup]

Isn’t the plan for the Chieftain bimodes to run on the wires as far as Dunblane before changing? Or are they only able to convert to diesel whilst stopped at a station (aka Stirling)?

ETA - so I’d imagine the Stirling services would be run entirely electric

I believe they're designed to be able to convert on the move, but at present the GWR ones are converting whilst stopped because of interference with signalling or some such thing.

 

[gingertom]

Isn’t the plan for the Chieftain bimodes to run on the wires as far as Dunblane before changing? Or are they only able to convert to diesel whilst stopped at a station (aka Stirling)?

ETA - so I’d imagine the Stirling services would be run entirely electric

I think it could run on electric as far as Dunblane then start engines and drop the pan on the move. Going from diesel to electric on the move requires a specially beefed-up section of OLE- see the great western electrification thread. As ScotRail doesn't have the need for this feature I can't see it being provided (there is a cost), so Stirling is the likely pan up, engines off place. Although I don't know and may be wrong. Happy to be corrected and an additional 5 miles of diesel running under the wires avoided may be small beer but every little helps. In any case this section is slightly downhill so it would be coasting to the Stirling stop- can a driver confirm?

 

[InOban]

It's definitely downhill, since Stirling must be near enough at sea level. The only disadvantage will be the absence of regenerative braking.

 

[gsnedders]

no reason it can't be an 801, assuming of course that they have planned enough juice to power it and the rest of the electric services in the area.

Oh, gah, I'd forgotten entirely about the Stirling terminator! Yes, no reason the Stirling ones couldn't be 801s AFAIK.