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Should passengers be allowed to sit in 1st class when standard class seating runs out

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DaveNewcastle

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I think someone has got something the wrong way round!
I would say that there could be something in the franchise agreements that punishes TOC's from having more than a certain number of services which fail to provide enough seating (and where passengers have to stand for more than 20 minutes) so as to encourage the lengthening of trains . . . . .
I think you mean to say that "there could be something in a franchise agreement that punishes HM Government for failing to provide enough seating, carriages, trains and network capacity (when passengers have to . . . . ". But that's not going to happen is it, knowing who writes the franchise agreements.

But please don't go blaming the train operators for not being given enough trains, or for a network which is running out of capacity.

. . . . I've been the only customer! I'm totally stuffed though, had to recline the seat to get myself comfortable!
To avoid having to recline the seat, you could have declined the food - or maybe not!.
 
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richw

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I think someone has got something the wrong way round!I think you mean to say that "there could be something in a franchise agreement that punishes HM Government for failing to provide enough seating, carriages, trains and network capacity (when passengers have to . . . . ". But that's not going to happen is it, knowing who writes the franchise agreements.

But please don't go blaming the train operators for not being given enough trains, or for a network which is running out of capacity.

Refer to post 55 for his answer to that when I posted similar. Everything you say is correct regarding lack of carriages being the government not the TOCs regardless of what he finds online.
 

jimm

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As I wrote, it is many years since I was in Ireland, so things have obviously changed.
According to the 1975 CIE timetable, except on the Dublin - Belfast service, "first class" has been replaced by "super standard travel". A £1.50 supplement was charged for each journey in super-standard.

(Dublin - Cork standard class single was shown as £7.00 in 1975.)

However, except for Dublin - Cork, and Dublin - Limerick, the majority of services were shown as "standard class only" .

For super-standard read 'business class' on Chiltern's and ATW's loco-powered sets, or 'Komfort' on NSB in Norway - whatever you want to call it, it's actually first class.

CIE super-standard coaches had a big number 1 painted on the doors, which i think tells you all you need to know.
 

johntea

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I actually used to feel sorry for the First Class passengers travelling at peak time on Transpenine Express. Get to Leeds and your peace is getting shattered until Huddersfield!

I think they started clamping down on it more recently but if the conductor is based at the opposite end of the service to the First Class area then they are never going to ever make it down to enforce really :lol:
 

Fincra5

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Would be so much easier if Commuter trains were Standard Class only. People, Stop buying 1st Class :D
 

Taunton

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I really wonder to what extent First Class is still justified.

It doesn't exist on any domestic plane flights in Britain. BR seemed to be making progress in removing it except on Inter City and some longer Network SE routes, in some cases it has come back in recent years.

Yes, on both Inter City and South-East services it seems to be occupied on services inwards in the morning peak, and outwards in the evening one. At other times, even on these services, it seems to be just so much empty stock.

Yes, there are some advance deals on off-peak services which give First Class for little more (in fact sometimes LESS) than standard, but this is just a means to put passengers in accommodation which, at prevailing fare levels, would just be empty. It's certainly not justification for First Class provision in its own right. In fact as real First Class fares have skyrocketed in price over the years even us business travellers have pretty much deserted it as no longer justified.

But there are large numbers of services where passengers are standing, while the numbers in First Class actually paying premium fares are low or non-existent. I make this distinction because of the numbers of rail staff on passes, and a range of others, who just don't contribute to the revenue (between Edinburgh and Glasgow at peak hours being a notable case).

There have been criticisms of gross overprovision of First Class on the WCML for generations now, when the air-con stock first came along in the 1970s it was normal to see 20% or less occupancy in First, and standing in Standard. This has never gone away; the Pendolinos initially had way to high a proportion of First. Somehow there is a perception that the one inward trip to London in the morning and out in the evening may justify rolling First Class coaches around all day, effectively empty stock outside these times.
 

Evvy73

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Southern seem to have a standard practice in place on Commuter services these days that as soon as a service is short formed or a service just before or after that is heading in roughly the same direction is cancelled, first class is de-classified.

Anyone that frequently catches the 17:43 LBG to Littlehampton will know that this 12 carriage train will still be 'full and standing' at Burgess Hill on a NORMAL day, so will be used to hearing "First class is de-classified" lately due to Southerns well documented problems! ;)

Should First Class be removed.....how about de-classifying it during the off-peak? On the Southern region there is no difference to the quality of the seats (except on the 442's), and usually there are enough standard seats to go round anyway, but on the occasions that there aren't this would allow more people to sit down, plus it would make sense to make use of all the seats available.
 

me123

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I really wonder to what extent First Class is still justified.

It doesn't exist on any domestic plane flights in Britain. BR seemed to be making progress in removing it except on Inter City and some longer Network SE routes, in some cases it has come back in recent years.

Yes, on both Inter City and South-East services it seems to be occupied on services inwards in the morning peak, and outwards in the evening one. At other times, even on these services, it seems to be just so much empty stock.
...

Comparison to domestic flights isn't really totally fair, since no domestic flight (that I'm aware of) is over 2 hours. By contrast, the <1h you'll spend in the air between Glasgow and London isn't really worth the business class experience, but the 4h+ on the train perhaps is. Business types very possibly spend more time in the airport than on the flight on these types of routes, and as such the industry has adapted to this: they can sell more seats on the plane, the customer is not overly inconvenienced, but they can still get their premium product at the airport lounges.

I can argue that FC isn't really justified on some services. I don't know enough about the trains in London to suggest if FC on commuter routes is worthwhile. I can't imagine that I'd ever pay for FC on a bog-standard commuter train, although perhaps the promise of a seat is enough for the more privileged in society. There is a wide variation in FC availability throughout the network, and whilst some services such as East Coast are undoubtedly worthwhile in that they provide quite a bit extra, in other companies you seem to be paying quite a bit more for very little. (Even on Scotrail, where you do get a small complimentary offer, I can't justify the cost on any level).

I'd agree that some routes have massive over-provision of FC accommodation. VT on the West was the classic - as you have already discussed. The Pendolinos have huge amounts of FC accommodation, and they don't seem to be well filled. Indeed, I've seen in the past one entire carriage declassified on the 9-car pendos in Summers as a company policy. And it's worthwhile noting that not, when more carriages were ordered to make 11 car trains, not a single extra FC seat was created.

Ultimately, it is up to the TOCs to make decisions as to their FC product, and I'm sure as businesses that if they feel that the FC product is making them money then they'll continue to sell it. I would agree that there are plenty of instances where abolishing FC is a very sensible idea, as the benefits to the passenger do not justify the cost and I'd imagine that uptake is low. I'd also argue however, that I would expect to be offered a FC product between Scotland and London, and would suggest the abolition of FC on these long-distance routes to be ludicrous.
 

rdeez

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I really wonder to what extent First Class is still justified.

It doesn't exist on any domestic plane flights in Britain. BR seemed to be making progress in removing it except on Inter City and some longer Network SE routes, in some cases it has come back in recent years.

...

I can see two main reasons for someone choosing first class: One, a better chance of getting a seat in a quieter environment, two, being able to get a table on which to work.

And I think the second point is the biggest - I travel almost exclusively in first class (on advances, I should add :lol:) with XC. Particularly in the peaks, around 3/4 of the occupants will have laptops, tablets and notebooks out, and will be using it as a travelling office. This would be difficult to accomplish in standard class. They'd have to be lucky enough to bag a table seat, and then hope it wasn't full around them leaving them with no space to work or concentrate.

Whether there's an overprovision of first class...well, maybe. But as to the question "is it still justified", I'd say the answer is definitely 'yes'.
 

Taunton

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Comparison to domestic flights isn't really totally fair, since no domestic flight (that I'm aware of) is over 2 hours. By contrast, the <1h you'll spend in the air between Glasgow and London isn't really worth the business class experience, but the 4h+ on the train perhaps is.
The concomitant is, of course, that business travellers will accept 3-across seating in economy class, at economy fares, but would want First Class, if allowed, at First Class prices for a 4.5 hours each way journey to do some work. Ever since MPs/Civil Servants got told No First Class On Expenses, much of what London-Scotland business remained has gone.

In all honesty, though, the business (ie First Class paying the full fare) market gave up on the train between London and Scotland long ago, something which was finally sealed by the likes of Easyjet with lower fares, and also the business world generally moving on to shorter and snappier trips, work in office Tuesday, up to Glasgow on Wednesday for a meeting 1000-1700, back home in the evening, work in office Thursday. Four to five hour train trips just don't fit in with that. We have considerable business contacts between a London office and Scotland, and I can tell you that nobody would consider the train - the 0730 off Euston, itself an inconvenient location for most to get to from their house in the outer suburbs and Home Counties, doesn't even stop at Watford Junction, and gets to Glasgow Central after midday. Meanwhile there are five airports spread around London with business flights to both Glasgow and Edinburgh. This is why First Class rail, even on these services, is generally pretty empty.
 

GodAtum

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I pay a lot of money to go on 1st class from East Croydon - Clapham, even though it's a short journey. And that is out of my own pocket, not expenses. 99% of the time I get a seat in 1st class.
 

Mutant Lemming

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I am sure that the Daily Mirror feel that we should all travel "Comrade Class" and each journey would feature compulsory singing of "The Internationale"..:D

best get a bit of practice in then -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpvwh292VKI


Вставай, проклятьем заклеймённый,
Весь мир голодных и рабов!
Кипит наш разум возмущённый
И в смертный бой вести готов.
Весь мир насилья мы разрушим
До основанья, а затем
Мы наш, мы новый мир построим, —
Кто был ничем, тот станет всем.
 

Starmill

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I pay a lot of money to go on 1st class from East Croydon - Clapham, even though it's a short journey. And that is out of my own pocket, not expenses. 99% of the time I get a seat in 1st class.

And I should think so to at £202 single and £404 return :p
 

dcsprior

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I am happy to pay for a first class ticket, on the basis that I'm paying a premium for a service which is somewhere above what I'd consider the basics of a decent journey. I would not feel comfortable with myself sitting in first class while others don't even get what I'd consider to be the minimum of a decent service.

The difficulty starts when it comes to defining what this minimum level is: from the perspective of a 4-4.5 hour journey between Edinburgh <-> London, the minimum of a decent service means a seat; in fact, not just that but a 2+2 seat in an air-conditioned carriage. However, for those on a commuter service, it may be reasonable to assume that the basics consist solely of being conveyed from one place to another (which I know is all you pay for on any journey, in any class - other than perhaps the sleeper, where there's a specific payment for the berth) and that the extra you get for buying a first class ticket is a seat.

TBH this seems to be matched by what I've seen from guards: the only times I've found myself on a long-distance service where there are people standing in standard class with no free seats, its not been long before the guard has announced that first class is declassified. This has happened due to disruption a handful of times on EC, and almost every time I've travelled Manchester-Edinburgh on TPE, but only for part of the journey (with the guard being clear that the declassification was only until a certain station)

I really wonder to what extent First Class is still justified.

It doesn't exist on any domestic plane flights in Britain.

Are you sure? I thought BA operated some planes where although all seats were identical, the middle seat wasn't sold in the first few rows - and the aisle/window seat was sold as a different class of product?

Comparison to domestic flights isn't really totally fair, since no domestic flight (that I'm aware of) is over 2 hours.

Agree wholeheartedly

I can argue that FC isn't really justified on some services. I don't know enough about the trains in London to suggest if FC on commuter routes is worthwhile. I can't imagine that I'd ever pay for FC on a bog-standard commuter train, although perhaps the promise of a seat is enough for the more privileged in society.

The difficulty is in defining what a commuter train is. If I travel from East Croydon to Victoria, I may consider my train to be a commuter one - but if others have been on these trains for 2.5 hours, which is longer than York-London, then is this really a commuter train?
 

pne

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The difficulty is in defining what a commuter train is. If I travel from East Croydon to Victoria, I may consider my train to be a commuter one - but if others have been on these trains for 2.5 hours, which is longer than York-London, then is this really a commuter train?

Similarly from, say, Woking to London, where you have local trains but also ones from as far as Exeter.

Or, infamously, Reading to London.
 

johntea

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Was on an interesting XC service yesterday between Leeds and Wakefield.

Basically a peak time service and the first class towards the front of the train, so anybody that may have had to rush for it (*cough cough*!) would naturally board the service at the front and try walking through first class to get to either a vestibule or another carriage.

The problem here was the vestibule 'before' first class was occupied by staff and their equipment, the vestibule 'after' first class was rather narrow and already crammed making it virtually impossible to actual make it any further down the train!

Now I managed to squeeze in what must have been the only remaining space in the vestibule but some chose to sit in first class and then a David vs Goliath battle ensued with the guard over the fact the train was packed and they were 'only on for 10 minutes' (going to Wakefield). In the end, I think the conductor had to back down before things turned ugly but it was quite interesting to witness.
 

scott118

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some chose to sit in first class and then a David vs Goliath battle ensued with the guard over the fact the train was packed and they were 'only on for 10 minutes' (going to Wakefield). In the end, I think the conductor had to back down before things turned ugly but it was quite interesting to witness.

But is the guard ever complimented on their efforts for doing so? Is it any wonder that they sometimes chose to hide out, in the back cab to avoid any such 'conflict'..
 

MP33

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While we were waiting for a bus during the latest Greater Anglia disruption. A manager working for a Network Rail subsidiary that I know told me. That when he travels later than myself in the very peak, after the train has left its last stop the standard class passengers are pressed up against the glass partition between there and 1st class like the zombies in a horror movie.
 

Statto95

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Is a TOC allowed to stop you standing in the doorway of a 1st Class carriage when a standard class ticket holder?
I was travelling on a Saturday night on a XC train from Birmingham New Street to Oxford with a standard ticket. The train was full, as I'd expected, and I couldn't find a seat so I went and stood/sat in the doorway of the 1st Class carriage, the piece between the main train door and the door to the seats. About 5 minutes later the train guard came down and told me that even sitting here in the 1st Class carriage means I should pay a 1st Class fair, and to move down the train or pay up....
Is the guard right because moving 10 yards down the train into the gap between the doors of the next carriage and sitting in the same sort of spot was allowed??
 

Jonfun

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Is a TOC allowed to stop you standing in the doorway of a 1st Class carriage when a standard class ticket holder?
I was travelling on a Saturday night on a XC train from Birmingham New Street to Oxford with a standard ticket. The train was full, as I'd expected, and I couldn't find a seat so I went and stood/sat in the doorway of the 1st Class carriage, the piece between the main train door and the door to the seats. About 5 minutes later the train guard came down and told me that even sitting here in the 1st Class carriage means I should pay a 1st Class fair, and to move down the train or pay up....
Is the guard right because moving 10 yards down the train into the gap between the doors of the next carriage and sitting in the same sort of spot was allowed??

Yes, it is technically First Class, but certainly on XC the vestibule where the toilet is at the end of first class is rarely enforced as such unless there's a valid reason, or you encounter an inspector who likes to uphold the rules to the letter.

Of course, anything past the dividing doors, whether standing, sitting, storing luggage, or standing in the vestibule between the seating area and the galley requires a first class ticket or other such authority to be there unless you're just passing through to visit the trolley or seek journey advice etc from the traincrew.
 

TheEdge

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Is a TOC allowed to stop you standing in the doorway of a 1st Class carriage when a standard class ticket holder?

All parts of a first class carriage are first class. This includes doors, vestibules, toilets, luggage racks and any other flat surfaces! ;) No loopholes there guv.
 

jon0844

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A GTR 321 has two first class compartments but the vestibule between them is standard.
 

Flamingo

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I regularly have this conversation:

"You mean I can't stand next to a First Class toilet?"
"No Sir, there are eight Standard Class toilets further down the train you are welcome to stand beside"
 

Wardog

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All seats should be first class seats. How hard can it be?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Now this is what Im talking about! ...:lol:
images
 
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Senex

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Now I managed to squeeze in what must have been the only remaining space in the vestibule but some chose to sit in first class and then a David vs Goliath battle ensued with the guard over the fact the train was packed and they were 'only on for 10 minutes' (going to Wakefield). In the end, I think the conductor had to back down before things turned ugly but it was quite interesting to witness.

See also Dewsbury-Leeds, Huddersfield-Leeds, and a good many similar examples where the British pricing system encourages short-distance passengers to use long-distance trains.
 

GarethJohn

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I would have been really peeved if paying for First Class on a London Midland service last week as I had whole carriages and six seats to myself for both my trips.
What do you get on a First Class London Midland service that would be better than standard class Virgin service?
Similarly travelling on a Transpennine service the other week if it wasn't for the stickers I would have been hard pressed to identify the First class section .
 

jimm

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See also Dewsbury-Leeds, Huddersfield-Leeds, and a good many similar examples where the British pricing system encourages short-distance passengers to use long-distance trains.

Are you seriously proposing pricing Huddersfield-Leeds passengers off the FTPE trains and driving them on to the Northern service - all one train per hour of it most of the day...

They use the FTPE trains because, for all practical purposes, they are the Huddersfield-Leeds rail service, not because they are 'encouraged' to use it by pricing. That the said service is provided with three-car dmus that are too small for the job is not the fault of the passengers, is it?
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Come the revolution the first class dwellers ( obviously not the day I have a cheap advance ;) ) will be dragged out and shot and then we will all be able to luxuriate in the effete bourgeois decadence of first class!

Have you ever read "Animal Farm" where Napoleon and the rest of the porkers who once inhabited the farm outbuildings moved into the luxury of the farmhouse, but then kept that privilege for themselves and took steps to see that the other farm animals were not allowed to enjoy this same lifestyle...:roll:
 
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