Should rail fares prohibit break of journey?

[tomuk]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/routeing-query-birmingham-to-southampton.233429/

Probably.

In principle, it wouldn't be permitted to stop off at Stratford-upon-Avon (SAV). This is because, whilst SAV is shown on map RB, you would have to double back between Wilmcote (WMC) and SAV to stop off in SAV - and doubling back is generally not permitted when tracing a mapped route.

Now, one of the exceptions to this general rule is that you can double back between stations that are members of the same Routeing Point Group for interchange purposes. And since WMC, Stratford-upon-Avon Parkway (STY) and SAV are all members of the Stratford-upon-Avon Routeing Point Group, this would in theory allow you to travel via SAV.

However, this is said to be for interchange purposes only - suggesting that cannot break your journey when relying on it. How enforceable that is, given there aren't any barriers at SAV, is another matter...

I note there is a negative easement which prohibits going via SAV on certain journeys:

However, based on the wording, this only applies for journeys that are to or from Leamington Spa (LMS), not just via there - and you fall into the latter cetegory. But some journey planners interpret it as prohibiting the route via SAV.

Other journey planners (including, importantly, National Rail Enquiries) are willing to offer itineraries via Stratford and so I think you would be entitled to rely on these in justifying your route. It's worth noting that the Off-Peak Return in question, as with most such fares, has no general bar on break of journey. So most journey planners tell you that break of journey is permitted en-route, subject to any restrictions shown in the restriction code. As there is nothing in the restriction code here, I think you would be on fairly safe ground.

As the worst case scenario when breaking your journey where not permitted to do so, or travelling via a non-permitted route, is to have to pay an excess fare - I think I would not be overly concerned about doing this.

Wouldn't it all be easier or everybody if it was all singles with no break of journey allowed?

 

[Watershed]

Wouldn't it all be easier or everybody if it was all singles with no break of journey allowed?

I'm not sure what definition of 'easier' you mean there. Would it involve less complexity - yes, probably. But it would also reduce flexibility quite a bit. The general ability to break your journey without formality is one of the few good aspects of our ticketing system.

Given that the vast majority of stations are unbarriered, barring break of journey is probably unenforceable anyway.

 

[tomuk]

The general ability to break your journey without formality is one of the few good aspects of our ticketing system.

How many people partake of this feature? Particularly with the number of Advance and other tickets sold with at least a BOJ restriction on the outward leg?

 

[Watershed]

How many people partake of this feature? Particularly with the number of Advance and other tickets sold with at least a BOJ restriction on the outward leg?

Probably only a small proportion, overall - unless you want to be highly technical and point out that anyone continuing that exits at London Bridge or Waterloo (East) with a London Terminals ticket is technically breaking their journey!

 

[davews]

I frequently use break of journey on my walks where I want to return from via a different station further along the line. Singles would work if single ticket prices were reasonable, at the moment in the London area they are not, a return to the further station and BOJ is much much cheaper.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Wouldn't it all be easier or everybody if it was all singles with no break of journey allowed?

It should be all singles, yes. However, break of journey should, within the validity of a single*, be permitted on ALL tickets including Advances.

* I'd go 2 days for longer distance ones, allowing an overnight break if desired.

 

[yorkie]

Providing the cost is no more than it is today, e.g. Thurnscoe to Long Eaton would be £6.60 each way (after 0859), while Sherburn to Whitby would be £10.10 each way (after 0914) then I have no objections to single leg pricing.

However I do not trust the 'powers that be' to cut return fares in half and therefore I cannot support this move without absolute assurances that this would definitely happen.

Once such assurances are given, then that's absolutely fine for single leg pricing to go ahead, but I still strongly object to banning break of journey.

I think the only way break of journey would end up being be banned is if a court ruled (as mooted in another thread) that customers had to be offered the absolute cheapest ticket that would be valid for the journey, such as if a passenger asked for a ticket from Clapham Jn to Southampton and therefore had to be sold a Brighton to Southampton by law. Such a ruling would then cause tickets to have break of journey restrictions, in order to remove the obligation to sell the ticket for the "longer" journey. I cannot see that happening though!

Break of journey restrictions are rarely enforceable; a passenger must be allowed through a gateline in order to access station facilities and it would generally be impossible to control what a passenger does next.

The only way break of journey restrictions are technically 'enforced' is by preventing the sale of tickets for longer journeys under certain circumstances. A good example of this (a few years ago) would have been a passenger turning up to Chester having travelled to the station by means other than by train, asking for a ticket for immediate travel from Shotton to London, starting short at Chester because it was cheaper.

In the Clapham Junction example, if someone asks for a ticket "to Southampton" they would be sold a Clapham Jn to Southampton ticket, but the customer can ask for a ticket from Brighton to Southampton for immediate travel and legitimately start short. The ticket office is obliged to sell such a ticket.

These days it's a moot point, as very few people use ticket offices and it's mostly e-tickets now.

 

[Hadders]

How would you enforce a no break of journey rule?

Consider a journey from Stevenage to Manchester. If I travel via London who defines how much time I'm allowed between arriving at Kings Cross and departing Euston? Am I allowed to walk or must I take the Underground.

If I travel via Doncaster am I allowed to pop out to Sainsbury's for some supplies? If the answer is no how would it be enforced as Doncaster station is ungated.

 

[yorkie]

It's not possible to enforce it, with the exception of using it as justification to refuse a sale (or, potentially, as justification for not offering a fare that otherwise would be cheaper)

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's not possible to enforce it, with the exception of using it as justification to refuse a sale (or, potentially, as justification for not offering a fare that otherwise would be cheaper)

In the days before it was used to enforce ticketing anomalies, it just meant your ticket would be collected on exit so you couldn't resume. Ending short was always OK.

It is indeed not enforceable at pretty much all stations nowadays because there are station facilities outside of gatelines you may wish to use while waiting for a connection. Indeed, at some stations, such as London termini, you are pretty much expected to leave the ticketed area to make a connection, as often there is no connections information inside it. Sometimes, barriers physically prevent you from making certain connections without leaving the area, such as Manchester Piccadilly.

 

[JonathanH]

In the days before it was used to enforce ticketing anomalies, it just meant your ticket would be collected on exit so you couldn't resume. Ending short was always OK.

With e-tickets, compulsory 'compostage' at the starting station, cancellation of the ticket if used at an intermediate station and a penalty fare for not completing the stated journey could fairly easily be introduced. (Not at all saying it should be.)

PAYG in the London style removes break of journey, particularly if there is no capping in force (although presumably there will continue to be a Zone 1 centric cap in force at all stations in the extended area).

 

[Bletchleyite]

PAYG in the London style removes break of journey, particularly if there is no capping in force (although presumably there will continue to be a Zone 1 centric cap in force at all stations in the extended area).

Though interestingly at least one of the TOC PAYG schemes, I think GTR's but may be wrong, openly states that it does do break of journey, i.e. if you do a trip with a break and a through ticket allowing a break is cheaper than two tickets it'll charge the through ticket.

Just expanding TfL's scheme is sadly a cheap bodge. It needn't work that way.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Jun 2022 ==

With e-tickets, compulsory 'compostage' at the starting station, cancellation of the ticket if used at an intermediate station and a penalty fare for not completing the stated journey could fairly easily be introduced.

I've already explained why that's not possible above, unless you're going to do a major programme of works to move gatelines so all station facilities are inside them.

The most likely way to kill BoJ, if it happens, other than the TfL contactless bit, is a move to "walk-up Advances" instead of flexible off peaks, i.e. you could walk up and buy a fixed price on the day Advance with a quota being available based on a crush load, but it'd only be valid on the specified train.

 

[tomuk]

The only way break of journey restrictions are technically 'enforced' is by preventing the sale of tickets for longer journeys under certain circumstances. A good example of this (a few years ago) would have been a passenger turning up to Chester having travelled to the station by means other than by train, asking for a ticket for immediate travel from Shotton to London, starting short at Chester because it was cheaper.

I seem to recall people getting pf or otherwise for doing this back in Virgin days.

 

[yorkie]

I seem to recall people getting pf or otherwise for doing this back in Virgin days.

Virgin didn't operate a Penalty Fare scheme; furthermore there was no provision for PFs to be issued for this purpose.

I did hear of SWR doing this on relation to a Megatrain journey being finished short at Eastleigh (instead of Southampton); this was successfully appealed.

Unfortunately there are insufficient safeguards in place to prevent the wrongful issuing of penalty or excess fares.

 

[tomuk]

Virgin didn't operate a Penalty Fare scheme; furthermore there was no provision for PFs to be issued for this purpose.

I did hear of SWR doing this on relation to a Megatrain journey being finished short at Eastleigh (instead of Southampton); this was successfully appealed.

Unfortunately there are insufficient safeguards in place to prevent the wrongful issuing of penalty or excess fares.

Ok not a penalty fare but some sort of onerous additional fare was charged.

 

[yorkie]

Yes; I think you are right, this did happen with Virgin West Coast (and other TOCs)

They are allowed to charge the difference between the price paid and the lowest priced fare that would have allowed the journey actually made.

Unfortunately there were several instances where inappropriate charges were made several years ago; all the ones I became aware of were successfully appealed/refunded, to the best of my knowledge, if I recall correctly (including the infamous one at Durham involving the Professor).

Following a string of terrible media publicity for the rail industry, Rail Delivery Group issued a memo to all TOCs stating that unless someone is clearly deliberately attempting to pay a lower fare (or similar wording to that effect), no charge should be made.

 

[Route115?]

If your ticket requires you to travel on a particular train then a break of journey will not be allowed. If it is not a train specific ticket (but possibly still a discount ticket) then a break should be permissible. I'm not sure how barriers cope with this.

I remember when I worked for Chiltern and we had a case where a ticket for a longer journey cost more than one for a shorter journey and one of our ticket inspectors was talking about penalising someone for not completing their journey. I wonder how that would have played out? It sounded like a problem with the pricing structure to me.

 

[Wolfie]

If your ticket requires you to travel on a particular train then a break of journey will not be allowed. If it is not a train specific ticket (but possibly still a discount ticket) then a break should be permissible. I'm not sure how barriers cope with this.

I remember when I worked for Chiltern and we had a case where a ticket for a longer journey cost more than one for a shorter journey and one of our ticket inspectors was talking about penalising someone for not completing their journey. I wonder how that would have played out? It sounded like a problem with the pricing structure to me.

Is your second para written as you intended? In general you would expect longer journeys to cost more than shorter journeys. I can see that cases where the converse would true might raise questions.

 

[6Gman]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/routeing-query-birmingham-to-southampton.233429/


Wouldn't it all be easier for everybody if it was all singles with no break of journey allowed?

Well, not for people who want to break their journey.

Which I've done many times over the years.

 

[yorksrob]

Anything that increases restrictions and reduces flexibility for passengers is a terrible idea.

Therefore this is a terrible idea.

 

[NoRoute]

How many people partake of this feature? Particularly with the number of Advance and other tickets sold with at least a BOJ restriction on the outward leg?

I wonder this, I doubt the average passenger or potential passenger knows the ins and outs of breaking journeys and that it is permitted with certain ticket types, certainly I didn't until I saw it discussed on here and was surprised how it could be used.

 

[yorkie]

If your ticket requires you to travel on a particular train then a break of journey will not be allowed. If it is not a train specific ticket (but possibly still a discount ticket) then a break should be permissible. I'm not sure how barriers cope with this.

Advance ticket holders may not break their journey under the T&Cs, however they may pass through barriers to change trains at another station where appropriate (e.g. London Terminals, Birmingham Stations, Glasgow Cen/Qst etc) and also to use station facilities (which at some stations includes not just plentiful shops but also cafes/bars/pubs!).

Of course once past the barriers, any such restriction cannot be enforced.

I remember when I worked for Chiltern and we had a case where a ticket for a longer journey cost more than one for a shorter journey and one of our ticket inspectors was talking about penalising someone for not completing their journey. I wonder how that would have played out? It sounded like a problem with the pricing structure to me.

If it was an Advance ticket, then the difference may be charged between the price paid and the lowest priced walk up fare that would have enabled the journey that was actually made.

If it was a walk-up ticket valid for break of journey, no charge can be made as this would be entirely legitimate.

 

[6Gman]

Appreciate I'm not a typical passenger but, for example:

If I go to the Grand National I book a ticket to Old Roan; break my journey at Aintree, return from Old Roan to avoid queueing;
Wanted to visit Tamworth and Nuneaton (from Crewe) on the same day. Ticket to Nuneaton, broke my journey at Tamworth.

 

[tomuk]

I wonder this, I doubt the average passenger or potential passenger knows the ins and outs of breaking journeys and that it is permitted with certain ticket types, certainly I didn't until I saw it discussed on here and was surprised how it could be used.

This is exactly my point in this and other related threads. There are myriad complexities in the current ticketing system which to the average potential passenger make the system opaque and unattractive. If some of these little used facilities were removed would we not be better off?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Appreciate I'm not a typical passenger but, for example:

If I go to the Grand National I book a ticket to Old Roan; break my journey at Aintree, return from Old Roan to avoid queueing;
Wanted to visit Tamworth and Nuneaton (from Crewe) on the same day. Ticket to Nuneaton, broke my journey at Tamworth.

Nobody will realistically care if you do that. Nor will they generally care if an Advance ticket holder pops out to the shops between booked trains, though there's anecdotal evidence that the muppets at Clapham Jn "downstairs" gateline actually do, which is grossly stupid.

 

[Watershed]

This is exactly my point in this and other related threads. There are myriad complexities in the current ticketing system which to the average potential passenger make the system opaque and unattractive. If some of these little used facilities were removed would we not be better off?

How would we be better off though? Most people don't think that railway ticketing is complex because BoJ is permitted.

They think it's complex because there are a lot of different rules depending on the ticket held and the route in question. So it's not as simple as saying "break of journey is always permitted".

If that were the rule, it would add flexibility as well as being simple. But getting a change like that over the line would be like herding cats, because of certain TOCs' obstinent insistence that things must be done the way they want, or else there must be an exception to the rules to accommodate their wishes.

This is a complete own goal by the industry.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If anything it's complex that BoJ is sometimes not permitted. The intuitive view is that you should be able to do the thing you've paid for in two bits (because you can stop off if you drive), and you should be able to only do half of it (say) if you want (because nobody stands outside trying to charge extra if you walk out of the cinema before the film has finished, nor if you decide to go to the loo or to buy more snacks in the middle of it).

 

[tomuk]

If anything it's complex that BoJ is sometimes not permitted. The intuitive view is that you should be able to do the thing you've paid for in two bits (because you can stop off if you drive), and you should be able to only do half of it (say) if you want (because nobody stands outside trying to charge extra if you walk out of the cinema before the film has finished, nor if you decide to go to the loo or to buy more snacks in the middle of it).

Some of those analogies are interesting. Some of it comes down to the old glass half/glass half empty. I believe journey as derived linguistically would indicate a days travel.

For example when using Oyster/Contactless of TfL is a BoJ involved when the 'system' stiches together individual legs into one fare? Or when capping activates and your single fares are replaced by a rover/travelcard.

Another consideration regards the intuitive view. When you by a larger pack of fish fingers, a loaf instead of a sandwich, you pay a cheaper unit price as you are buying in bulk.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Another consideration regards the intuitive view. When you by a larger pack of fish fingers, a loaf instead of a sandwich, you pay a cheaper unit price as you are buying in bulk.

You don't, however, get penalised if you throw some of them in the composting bin. But really that's more like a season ticket than break of journey. And you don't get a prosecution letter if you buy a season and only use one day of it for whatever reason (though you do waste your money).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jun 2022 ==

For example when using Oyster/Contactless of TfL is a BoJ involved when the 'system' stiches together individual legs into one fare? Or when capping activates and your single fares are replaced by a rover/travelcard.

I think that's too technical. To the layperson, it's just a case of "I've paid for A-B-C, I should just be able to do A-B, or B-C, or to stop off at B to grab some food". And it's totally logical.

No, you can't do it when flying (though with a long layover nobody will stop you popping out of the airport, I have done it more than once). But airlines are hardly revered as the ambassadors of quality customer service, quite the opposite.

 

[Starmill]

Breaking one's journey is often a requirement.

For example, before the pandemic, one Summer holiday I boarded a train at Ivybridge, which didn't have a ticket machine, for travel to St Ives. It was a through train to Penzance, but there was nobody available to sell tickets until after Plymouth, whereupon an RPI joined the train.

I explained that I'd come from Ivybridge and would like to go to St Ives. However I knew that on my return that afternoon I wouldn't have a train to Ivybridge as they're very infrequent in the evenings. I think it would have been something like a three hour wait. As a result I'd made arrangements to be picked up at Totnes instead. Having explained this the solution was to sell a ticket from Totnes instead, even though there was another customer within earshot who had travelled from Totnes but didn't have a ticket, and they were issued with a Penalty Fare!