Should the HSTs be Replaced?

[marcouk2]

That's true, to be fair, I tend to see it as an opportunity to teach people how to use a proper train door. Once you're fully compliant with the Mk3, the world's your oyster !

Last person I saw it happen to only thought to ask someone after the CDL was re engaged, they then spent the time to the next station complaining that there should be a sign to explain how to open the doors, I didn't have the heart to point out the instructions above their head so just settled on making sure they knew the train to get back quickest and then demonstrated opening the door at the station for them.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Are there many Heritage stations that could accommodate a 2+9 HST on their platforms? Or is 2+7 the "official" length of an HST.

As to maintaining one, surely as long as they had the capability of maintaining a 2+1 set, then it's simply adding more onto the +1...

To be honest I think a HST would be wasted on a preserved railway where the maximum speed is 25 mph! Far better to see it being run flat out on the GWML.

In order to be able to afford to keep running a HST set you would have to put it up for hire which means maintaining it to mainline standards. In which case it would make far more sense to use the facilities and expertise at depots which currently maintain HST's.

 

[paul1609]

Have to say had one of my infrequent trips on the Yorkshire Branch (ECML) yesterday, 91 + mk 4 down, HST back.
Even though the 91 was eventually declared a failure at Doncaster I have to say the HST seemed a far more modern and well maintained train apart from the slam doors.
The ride quality on both Mk4s seemed appalling

 

[yorksrob]

The ride quality on both Mk4s seemed appalling

I tend to avoid the Airline style seats now as I prefer to ingest my food and drink, rather than have it jettisoned across the carriage, as seems to happen whenever I try and use one of those pointless seat back tables.

 

[IanXC]

Are there many Heritage stations that could accommodate a 2+9 HST on their platforms? Or is 2+7 the "official" length of an HST.

I think 2+8 was the original ddelivery spec for the East Coast? Certainly various formation lengths have happened:
2+5: orginal GC
2+6: current GC
2+7: current XC, original GW high density spec
2+8: current GW, EM spec
2+9: current EC spec

Although I'm sure there's more to it than that!

In terms of platform lenghts, my first thought would be the Great Central... Anyone have any figures?

 

[Tiny Tim]

Every train journey I make begins with an HST. They're still as comfortable as any more modern train, and don't show their age at all. But to be brutally sensible about it, this particular dog has definitely had it's day. Refurbishing and maintaining trains this old is going to become hideously expensive, and line speeds will, eventually, increase, so it's time to say goodbye to a good and faithful old friend. I'll never forget my first ride on a 125, it was like a step into the future. I would never have guessed then that 36 years later I'd still be swishing along the GWML in this same train. Yes, with reluctance, I have to say that the IntercCty 125's time is up.

 

[starrymarkb]

I say keep the HST's they are worth it just for the joy of watching German and American tourists trying to find the door handle when they want to get off.

That's because the Germans and Americans are more advanced then us, they had autoclosers and Central Locking long before the UK so have handles on the inside of their slam doors

 

[Tiny Tim]

That's because the Germans and Americans are more advanced then us, they had autoclosers and Central Locking long before the UK so have handles on the inside of their slam doors

Handles on the inside? What kind of witchcraft is this?

 

[andyb2706]

I say keep the HST's they are worth it just for the joy of watching German and American tourists trying to find the door handle when they want to get off.

I have to say the HST is still one of the best trains around in my opinion and if you are lucky enough you get on board entertainment.

 

[The Ham]

I have to say the HST is still one of the best trains around in my opinion and if you are lucky enough you get on board entertainment.

Maybe when the IEP's come along with screens for entertainment there should be a random clips showing people struggling with the doors on the HST's

 

[swt_passenger]

Maybe when the IEP's come along with screens for entertainment...

Why would they have screens for entertainment? The existing FGW system has been all but abandoned because no-one was interested in paying for it...

 

[Peter Sarf]

Its one of those quaint British things that you can get yourself into a vehicle/room but cannot get yourself out !. It was safety culture that prevented the internal door handle iirc BUT now the coaches are fitted with CDL (Central Door Locking) can we not have our freedom back please. I suspect and internal handle is easy enough to fit as it looks like the door latch mechanism is there on the inside face of the door just waiting for a handle/slider.

I do really like MK3 coaches though. It was so nice to experience them on Chiltern last year.

Besides there must be something useful in the European convention on human rights covering these missing handles !.

I must admit I can open them easily from inside. But the outside handle is a deceptively long way down when you are standing inside. I found it difficult with a fully loaded rucksack on my back and for someone with a bad back it would be rather risky.

From the country that brought you the p***r .

 

[thetangoman]

A Mk3 refurb with Plug Doors and Tanks for the toilets these wonderful machines can go on for a long time yet. Surely the MTU engines are expected to go on for more than a few years.

 

[tbtc]

A Mk3 refurb with Plug Doors and Tanks for the toilets these wonderful machines can go on for a long time yet. Surely the MTU engines are expected to go on for more than a few years.

There are two separate arguments:

1. Can an HST last for the medium/long term (the power cars have modern engines, the coaches will need some work but could get the "Triggers Broom" treatment)
2. What will we need long 125mph diesel trains with unremarkable acceleration once we have IEP (with its bi-mode option) and have electrified most of the 125mph lines (with the MML to Sheffield and the GWML to Swansea, the only HSTs with a guaranteed future are the dozen-ish required for the London - Cornwall services)?

The fact that they may be physically sound (if you throw enough money at upgrading the coaches) is separate to the "need" for them.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Its fair to say tht the uses for HSTs will be shrinking with lectrification. Thats why I would like to see some long rakes of MK3s pulled/pushed by a beefy new electric loco.

I also visualise the HSTs last uses will be on slower (100mph) routes with limited stops so hopefully not requireing good acceleration - certainly not all the way to 125mph. Could they be used on fast services between say
Liverpool and Stanstead with 170s filling in the lesser stations. If that is cross country for example then there is the small matter of a glut of Voyagers however ?.

 

[broadgage]

I can forsee HSTs being used on the longer heritage lines in the future, they ARE borderline heritage, the first ones ran less than 10 years after the end of steam.

I could certainly forsee a heritage railway running an HST for "wine and dine specials". If a number of sets are being withdrawn it should be simple matter to make up say a 2+7 formation with 2 kitchens and all first class.
Similar agruments could apply to charters and specials on the main line, a go almost anywhere train with 2 kitchens and all first class could be very useful for luxury charters.

HSTs were designed with improved brakes and lower track forces so as to run at 125MPH on lines only otherwise suited for 100 MPH.
This might permit of running on heritage lines at say 40MPH rather than 25, which could be attractive for through trains.

I would hope that a reasonable number are saved initialy with a view to long term preservation of several.
It would be well to initialy save a relatively large number, in order that any suffering expensive failure or damage can be scrapped, whilst still leaving some.

I also hope that that there is no undue rush to scrap ANY HSTs initially.

I fear a hasty mass scrapping, followed by a lot of half length new trains

"we regret to announce that the xx-xx to abcd is today formed of 5 coaches only. this is due to a shortage of available rolling stock"
When the IEPs dont work reliably, and the HSTs have been scrapped.

IMHO scrapping of servicable HSTs or other trains should be prohibited until enough new units have been delivered and proved to work reliably.

 

[anthony263]

.

IMHO scrapping of servicable HSTs or other trains should be prohibited until enough new units have been delivered and proved to work reliably.

I can see First retaining some hst's intially until IEP's had bedded down if they retain the GW franchise. Certainly Ithink First have learned the lessons from when the class 180's were introduced back in 2000-2003.

 

[stanley T]

I'm not sure what the long-term plans for Paddington-Plymouth(-Penzance) services over the B&H are. Last I heard, they'd be keeping HSTs for the foreseeable future.

You would get some pretty good journey time reductions by introducing tilting trains on that route, given how curvy it is, 2h30 mins to Plymouth and 4hrs to Penzance would be doable. Downside is that it would probably have to be a Super Voyager variant with all the pleasures of DMU vibration (electrification surely non viable..) but at least you could split the trains easily to give London - Plymouth/Paignton and Penzance/Newquay options.

As the routes were built for wide gauge, would the greater lateral clearance allow more of the route to be run at full theoretical tilt, rather than being constrained in places by the infrastructure, as on the WCML?

 

[AndyLandy]

The basic problem is that the HSTs (and I reckon the IC225s as well) are at the point where they just aren't really all that useful on the railway. Once IEP comes to the ECML, IC225s will just eat up paths and get in the way of the nippier IEP trains. Even on the MML, I'd expect them to be tripping up the Meridians.

Sure, the Mk3s are spacious and comfortable*, and perhaps newer trains aren't so much, but that's not the fault of the actual train. You could pack in hard, uncomfortable 3+2 seating into a Mk3 just as easily as you could do out a Meridian or an IEP with big, comfortable 2+2 seating, all with tables, all aligned to windows. I'm optimistic enough to hope that the IEPs will actually be fairly good comfort-wise.

I've alluded to this elsewhere, but I suspect the best use of HSTs is alongside IC225s on the MML, with the Meridians bolstering XC services, or possibly even used to run Paddington-Plymouth(-Penzance). Then, as we approach 2030, replace the entire MML fleet with new IEP trains.

*Comfort is subjective, but by-and-large, people seem to like the Mk3s.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You would get some pretty good journey time reductions by introducing tilting trains on that route, given how curvy it is, 2h30 mins to Plymouth and 4hrs to Penzance would be doable. Downside is that it would probably have to be a Super Voyager variant with all the pleasures of DMU vibration (electrification surely non viable..) but at least you could split the trains easily to give London - Plymouth/Paignton and Penzance/Newquay options.

As the routes were built for wide gauge, would the greater lateral clearance allow more of the route to be run at full theoretical tilt, rather than being constrained in places by the infrastructure, as on the WCML?

I don't know the route, but if there's a benefit to be had there, perhaps XC taking the Meridians to free up Super Voyagers might make sense. I guess it depends on how much it would cost to install TASS equipment on that line.

My understanding of the Cornish main line is that it's largely 60-75mph running with quite a lot of stops. It certainly doesn't seem all that suited to HST services. Then again, if you only really need the speed at the London end of the route, perhaps that's less of an issue...

 

[swt_passenger]

I can see First retaining some hst's intially until IEP's had bedded down if they retain the GW franchise. Certainly Ithink First have learned the lessons from when the class 180's were introduced back in 2000-2003.

The abandoned franchise spec required a one month overlap between each IEP delivery and the corresponding HST withdrawal.

 

[RobShipway]

The basic problem is that the HSTs (and I reckon the IC225s as well) are at the point where they just aren't really all that useful on the railway. Once IEP comes to the ECML, IC225s will just eat up paths and get in the way of the nippier IEP trains. Even on the MML, I'd expect them to be tripping up the Meridians.

Sure, the Mk3s are spacious and comfortable*, and perhaps newer trains aren't so much, but that's not the fault of the actual train. You could pack in hard, uncomfortable 3+2 seating into a Mk3 just as easily as you could do out a Meridian or an IEP with big, comfortable 2+2 seating, all with tables, all aligned to windows. I'm optimistic enough to hope that the IEPs will actually be fairly good comfort-wise.

I've alluded to this elsewhere, but I suspect the best use of HSTs is alongside IC225s on the MML, with the Meridians bolstering XC services, or possibly even used to run Paddington-Plymouth(-Penzance). Then, as we approach 2030, replace the entire MML fleet with new IEP trains.

*Comfort is subjective, but by-and-large, people seem to like the Mk3s.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I don't know the route, but if there's a benefit to be had there, perhaps XC taking the Meridians to free up Super Voyagers might make sense. I guess it depends on how much it would cost to install TASS equipment on that line.

My understanding of the Cornish main line is that it's largely 60-75mph running with quite a lot of stops. It certainly doesn't seem all that suited to HST services. Then again, if you only really need the speed at the London end of the route, perhaps that's less of an issue...

I am doing a bit of day dreaming here, but if the Government eventually gave agreement to OHE from both Newbury and Bristol westwards to Penzance, could the 225's be used until there was enough IEP trains available to cover the route or would it just be a case if converting the hybrid IEP's if they are on the route to just working from the OHE?

 

[AndyLandy]

I am doing a bit of day dreaming here, but if the Government eventually gave agreement to OHE from both Newbury and Bristol westwards to Penzance, could the 225's be used until there was enough IEP trains available to cover the route or would it just be a case if converting the hybrid IEP's if they are on the route to just working from the OHE?

I would expect that if we even got to that point, we'd probably be ordering IEPs to coincide with the upgrades. Any delay on the IEP order would just mean running the HSTs for a few months longer. No point in shifting a whole fleet of trains for a few months...

 

[tbtc]

I fear a hasty mass scrapping, followed by a lot of half length new trains

"we regret to announce that the xx-xx to abcd is today formed of 5 coaches only. this is due to a shortage of available rolling stock"

If there's a rolling stock problem with five coach IEP then you can still run a five coach train (in place of a ten coach train).

If there's a rolling stock problem with a seven/ eight/ nine coach HST then...

Its fair to say tht the uses for HSTs will be shrinking with lectrification. Thats why I would like to see some long rakes of MK3s pulled/pushed by a beefy new electric loco

The problem is that the one modern part of the HST is the engines.

The Mk3 coaches are going to need a lot of work in future (to extend life by a decade or two) - when compared to the cost of building new coaches/ units (which will be un-corroded and have a much longer life expectancy).

So, what we need are a hundred-or-so "spare" coaches with button operated doors and a fairly modern spec... does this solve the problem of what to do with the 442s too? Stick unpowered 442s between two HST power cars?

 

[AndyLandy]

So, what we need are a hundred-or-so "spare" coaches with button operated doors and a fairly modern spec... does this solve the problem of what to do with the 442s too? Stick unpowered 442s between two HST power cars?

We could use the Mk4s as well when the IC225s are evicted from the ECML.

 

[387star]

will there be a mass cut back of dispatch staff when HSTs are replaced?

 

[RichmondCommu]

I also hope that that there is no undue rush to scrap ANY HSTs initially.

I fear a hasty mass scrapping, followed by a lot of half length new trains

"we regret to announce that the xx-xx to abcd is today formed of 5 coaches only. this is due to a shortage of available rolling stock"
When the IEPs dont work reliably, and the HSTs have been scrapped.

IMHO scrapping of servicable HSTs or other trains should be prohibited until enough new units have been delivered and proved to work reliably.

To be honest if the Voyagers and Meridians are anything to go by I can't see reliability being an issue. And you can pretty much guarantee that IEP's will be extensively tested before they enter service.

 

[Aictos]

Yes I would say OAO would like them. Good for summer extras as well because they should be cheap to rent with low residual value.

The only big future would be on electrified routes with the power cars replaced.

Possibly some jumbo trains to provide relief in the peaks like the MK1 cobbler sets did and of course the pretendalino does. Ridership growth ought to keep them alive.

Years ago there was always older stock lying around ready to fill the gaps. Hopefully the main reason for that not happening currently is because all that potential MK2 (& MK1) slam door stock was wiped out artificificially quickly. I hope that the MK3 coaches are more eligible for continued use despite higher safety requirements as we dont seem to be heading for the same type of "slam door stock replacement cliff" do we ?.

will there be a mass cut back of dispatch staff when HSTs are replaced?

Very much doubt it, the same number of dispatchers at Peterborough for example are used to dispatch a HST as are used to dispatch a Mk4 set and its the same at Kings Cross, York, Edinburgh etc....

 

[swt_passenger]

Very much doubt it, the same number of dispatchers at Peterborough for example are used to dispatch a HST as are used to dispatch a Mk4 set and its the same at Kings Cross, York, Edinburgh etc....

Presumably only because the numbers are there as required by the HSTs and it would be pretty stupid not to use them for Mk4 stock as well.

But stations like Reading employ a significant number of despatch staff whose main aim in life is to close HST doors because the passengers don't. They won't all be needed with IEPs.

 

[Cliveblackpool]

The basic problem is that the HSTs (and I reckon the IC225s as well) are at the point where they just aren't really all that useful on the railway. Once IEP comes to the ECML, IC225s will just eat up paths and get in the way of the nippier IEP trains. Even on the MML, I'd expect them to be tripping up the Meridians.

Sure, the Mk3s are spacious and comfortable*, and perhaps newer trains aren't so much, but that's not the fault of the actual train. You could pack in hard, uncomfortable 3+2 seating into a Mk3 just as easily as you could do out a Meridian or an IEP with big, comfortable 2+2 seating, all with tables, all aligned to windows. I'm optimistic enough to hope that the IEPs will actually be fairly good comfort-wise.

I've alluded to this elsewhere, but I suspect the best use of HSTs is alongside IC225s on the MML, with the Meridians bolstering XC services, or possibly even used to run Paddington-Plymouth(-Penzance). Then, as we approach 2030, replace the entire MML fleet with new IEP trains.

*Comfort is subjective, but by-and-large, people seem to like the Mk3s.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I don't know the route, but if there's a benefit to be had there, perhaps XC taking the Meridians to free up Super Voyagers might make sense. I guess it depends on how much it would cost to install TASS equipment on that line.

My understanding of the Cornish main line is that it's largely 60-75mph running with quite a lot of stops. It certainly doesn't seem all that suited to HST services. Then again, if you only really need the speed at the London end of the route, perhaps that's less of an issue...

Hst's are very suitable trains. Comfort Good acceleration from the stations, nippy on the succession of inclines etc. The scenery is worth looking out of the window. A treat in itself.
Voyagers - 4 1/2 hours with no restaurant, vibration - suppose they might be a little better than National Express, depending on difference in price! Voyagers only make good speed with all their engines running.
Lack of paths? Well, why run small trains?

 

[AndyLandy]

Hst's are very suitable trains. Comfort Good acceleration from the stations, nippy on the succession of inclines etc. The scenery is worth looking out of the window. A treat in itself.
Voyagers - 4 1/2 hours with no restaurant, vibration - suppose they might be a little better than National Express, depending on difference in price! Voyagers only make good speed with all their engines running.
Lack of paths? Well, why run small trains?

I was informed that the acceleration profile of the HSTs meant that they weren't ideal for running the Cornish main line services and that Voyager-esque stock would make much better use of the paths. There's probably not a great deal in it between Paddington and Exeter, but if you're running to Penzance, you could make some improvements to journey times with 22x units instead of HSTs. If you ran them as 2x sets, you could even do splits to run along some of the branches. And there's no reason they couldn't be refurbished to have decent seating and restaurant cars.