Signalling a train into the wrong platform where there's no room - is this classed as an operational incident?

[Signal_Box]

Unless it’s a very basic terminal station, I’d bet there is some kind of route / platform indicator.

 

[LAX54]

We used to get it quite a bit at Norwich, with 153's / 156's and 170's, being a depot station, unit swaps were (and still are very common) P5 / P6 are quite short, sometimes the Signaller wold simply put a booked train in there only to find it didn't fit, upon investigation (which always takes place) turns out it may have been a 156 vice 153, or even a 170 vice 153, sometimes the Station Supervisor would ring the panel with a platform change, overlooking what was already in there ! could also be a genuine error
Remember many moons ago, I managed to place a Cravens on top of a London hauled set at Norwich, had a phone call after the train came to a stand from the Stn Supervisor asking if we were short of Class 86's that day ?
Passengers detrained via the first coach, then driver changed ends, points all locked up, authorised to move behind the GPL and then routed into P2 where it should have gone
Recent years saw a special box instruction, saying when signalling a train into an occupied platform, if certain track circuits were showing occupied, then the Signaller must check with the Statin that there is room for the move, sometimes this does cause a delay to the train if the Station is not quick in answering the phone, if they take too long the Signaller will change the platform, this is a last resort, as it mucks up platforming for the next few hours !

 

[Scotrail314209]

Pre-Covid this was an occasional occurrence at Glasgow Central, particularly if XC/VT services showed up as Pendolino or HST vice a Voyager.

I recall waiting for my train to Newcastle, which I reserved as a Voyager, instead a HST pulled into Platform 3 at Glasgow Central. Platform 3 can really only handle a 6 coach train maximum, so the rear power car and the two first class carriages were all hanging off, meaning the points were blocked.

A 390 also ended up in a similar situation having been on a service booked for a five car Voyager. There's also been cases of 6 car 380s put on top of a 7 car set or a double unit in some of the longer bay platforms.

 

[Railsigns]

Every colour light signal that has routes into one or more terminal platforms should display a route indication (usually the platform number) for those routes, unless a single platform is the only signalled destination from that signal (which is unusual). A route indication is displayed when either a main (yellow aspect) or a permissive (two white lights) route is set; the method of mounting the signal (post, gantry, ground, etc.) doesn't affect this requirement.

Modern practice requires a separate (smaller) route indicator for the permissive (calling-on) routes, unless physical constraints make this impracticable. Older signals may use the same route indicator/indication for main and permissive routes (either theatre type or feather).

 

[Annetts key]

I do believe at most stations with permissive working drivers have to be "called on" to the platform in advance. I think this happens at most terminals and is my understanding but maybe drivers could advise what happens in practice?

All signalled permissive moves are via a position light aspect (“calling on”/“shunt signal”/“dummy”), which for a colour light signal, is two diagonal white lights which illuminate next to the (main) red aspect.

As Railsigns says, whenever there is more than one route or destination available from a signal, there will be a route or junction indicator. So the driver always knows where the signal has been routed to.

The above applies regardless of if the station is a terminus, a through line, a bay line, or any other line where (signalled) permissive moves are allowed.

So if a driver gets a main proceed aspect (Y, YY or G), the line is clear to the next signal. But if a driver gets a position light proceed aspect, the driver must control the speed of the train such that the train can be stopped short of any other train that may be ahead.

Unless the line speed is low, a signal routed into an occupied section (that is, there is a train ahead in section) will have approach release (approach control). This means it will not clear until an approaching train is on the ‘berth’ track circuit (the track circuit immediately on the approach to the signal) and in some cases, a timer also has to run before the signal will clear. This is to ensure that the speed of the train is reduced.

 

[Horizon22]

All signalled permissive moves are via a position light aspect (“calling on”/“shunt signal”/“dummy”), which for a colour light signal, is two diagonal white lights which illuminate next to the (main) red aspect.

As Railsigns says, whenever there is more than one route or destination available from a signal, there will be a route or junction indicator. So the driver always knows where the signal has been routed to.

The above applies regardless of if the station is a terminus, a through line, a bay line, or any other line where (signalled) permissive moves are allowed.

So if a driver gets a main proceed aspect (Y, YY or G), the line is clear to the next signal. But if a driver gets a position light proceed aspect, the driver must control the speed of the train such that the train can be stopped short of any other train that may be ahead.

Unless the line speed is low, a signal routed into an occupied section (that is, there is a train ahead in section) will have approach release (approach control). This means it will not clear until an approaching train is on the ‘berth’ track circuit (the track circuit immediately on the approach to the signal) and in some cases, a timer also has to run before the signal will clear. This is to ensure that the speed of the train is reduced.

Thanks, that's a very clear explanation of something I knew about and have seen happen but didn't know the technicalities.

 

[Ianigsy]

Something similar happened to me as a passenger several years ago. Arriving into Leeds on a Calder Valley stopper which was due to couple to another unit and then retire to Neville Hill, the position of the other unit and the platform curvature meant that our 155 had to stop with an unacceptable gap between train and platform so passengers and crew had to exit through the front door only.

 

[westbrom]

At new street we are told to accept a single yellow onto a platform with a 6 or 8 car that will not fit as we may then get position lights on the red signal so we can draw up to the other train in the section and be accomodated.
But yes, sometimes will be met by a red and have to ring signaller as somebody has cocked up.
Driver would get pulled in though if taking a long form train into a bay it wouldnt fit into or entering a platform on position lights where they would not fit.
In above cases driver and signaller would be queationed.

 

[Bertone]

When I was involved in signalling / interlocking design ( a good few years ago), there was something termed “ Lime Street Control”, the concept being that for regularly used permissive moves, the platform track circuits were split and also the berth track circuit of the approach signal was also split, so in effect these multiple track circuits were termed “measuring” tracks.
This effectively meant that the signaller could see from the panel if the train would be able to fit in the platform behind another.
I recall that if the train was ”measured” to be too long, the signal would not clear.
Signalling Principles may have changed in the last few years of course.

The principal was called “Lime Street Control” after an incident at Liverpool apparently

 

[Tomnick]

When I was involved in signalling / interlocking design ( a good few years ago), there was something termed “ Lime Street Control”, the concept being that for regularly used permissive moves, the platform track circuits were split and also the berth track circuit of the approach signal was also split, so in effect these multiple track circuits were termed “measuring” tracks.
This effectively meant that the signaller could see from the panel if the train would be able to fit in the platform behind another.
I recall that if the train was ”measured” to be too long, the signal would not clear.
Signalling Principles may have changed in the last few years of course.

The principal was called “Lime Street Control” after an incident at Liverpool apparently

That works well where the trains that share platforms are all the same length, but not so much where you've got all sorts of different combinations (as found at Lime Street). For example, if your 12-car platform is divided into three equal sections designed around 4-car multiple units, you'll be fine with 4 on top of 8 or 8 on top of 4, but 5 on top of 5 won't go!

TOCs' defensive driving policies can also be a problem, if drivers are instructed to stop further back from signals and thus not fitting entirely within the measuring track circuit!

 

[Bertone]

Noted - thanks Tomnick.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

I recall arriving at Manchester Piccadilly platform 10 a couple of years ago and the rear set of doors on the cl319 were off the platform and hence the conductor could not open the doors within the rules. After several minutes delay passengers at the back end were directed to the next set of doors and the doors were released (which obviously included the set of doors off the platform but with a member of staff covering these just in case). When I reached the end of the platform there was Voyager which had stopped well short of the blocks and well short of the normal position so Voyager plus 319 should have fitted but did not due to the positioning of the Voyager. I imagine the signaller would know this combination should fit and would not be aware the Voyager had stopped short.

 

[BoroAndy]

I remember waiting for a train at Man Vic back in about 1978, a long curved platform. A small dmu left heading east just as my loco hauled train came barrelling round the bend and stopped well overlapped with where the dmu was. I still remember thinking that didn't look right, if the dmu had stalled or missed a gear there would have been a collision. Makes you wonder what happened to the signalling.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Depending upon the location, blame could also be attributed to the driver for accepting a route into an occupied platform if their train is longer than can be accepted by a calling on signal.
Sometimes a driver will call the signaller to confirm the length of a train already in a platform if their train is longer than the minimum length that a calling on signal can be given for

You can't blame the driver. The purpose of a calling signal signal is to inform the driver the platform ahead is already occupied so drive the train to stop short of an obstruction.

Seems to me just an operating incident that you want to avoid but one of those things that occasionally happen. Of course when signallers could look at the box window and see what was going on they may have had better knowledge rather than sitting remotely in a front of a VDU.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

I remember waiting for a train at Man Vic back in about 1978, a long curved platform. A small dmu left heading east just as my loco hauled train came barrelling round the bend and stopped well overlapped with where the dmu was. I still remember thinking that didn't look right, if the dmu had stalled or missed a gear there would have been a collision. Makes you wonder what happened to the signalling.

Could I suggest driver error rather than signalling in this instance, permissive working presumably and the driver should have been proceeding at a slow speed so that he should be able to stop clear of any obstruction.

 

[GB]

You can't blame the driver.

As said, depending on the situation some blame can be attributed to the driver. Eg If the platform holds 8 cars and you are driving 8 cars and you proceed on a calling on.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

As said, depending on the situation some blame can be attributed to the driver. Eg If the platform holds 8 cars and you are driving 8 cars and you proceed on a calling on.

Agree thats a fair scenario

 

[BoroAndy]

Could I suggest driver error rather than signalling in this instance, permissive working presumably and the driver should have been proceeding at a slow speed so that he should be able to stop clear of any obstruction.

Interesting comment. I think one reason I could never do the job is driving and not being able to stop where you can see, as is how to drive a road vehicle. Driving in fog at full speed, eeeekk.

 

[Tester]

That works well where the trains that share platforms are all the same length, but not so much where you've got all sorts of different combinations (as found at Lime Street). For example, if your 12-car platform is divided into three equal sections designed around 4-car multiple units, you'll be fine with 4 on top of 8 or 8 on top of 4, but 5 on top of 5 won't go!

TOCs' defensive driving policies can also be a problem, if drivers are instructed to stop further back from signals and thus not fitting entirely within the measuring track circuit!

Lime Street control related to loco hauled working. The platform approach signal measuring track circuit was long enough to allow for two locos (to allow for double heading) to drop onto a train with a calling on aspect. Anything longer and the signal wouldn't clear at all. It didn't attempt to cover combinations of multiple units.

 

[northernbelle]

It does happen from time to time but it is deemed an operational irregularity that is then investigated.

There have been instances in the past that seen this circumstance lead to something more serious - the collision between a Sprinter and HST at Plymouth in 2016 is the most recent that springs to mind and I seem to recall something similar at Norwich a while before that. At Plymouth, a Sprinter was signalled into a platform occupied by an HST under 'permissive working' arrangements and both the signaller and driver assumed there was space for the 4 car Class 150 to fit in the platform behind the HST. This was not the case.

Technically, the signalling arrangements for 'permissive working' allow the driver to proceed at caution as long as they 'stop short of any obstruction'. If they drive according to these rules than the initial irregularity of being signalled into a platform without enough space shouldn't lead to any serious issue.

 

[Railsigns]

Lime Street control related to loco hauled working. The platform approach signal measuring track circuit was long enough to allow for two locos (to allow for double heading) to drop onto a train with a calling on aspect. Anything longer and the signal wouldn't clear at all. It didn't attempt to cover combinations of multiple units.

Depending on platform length and operational requirements, Lime Street Control could be more flexible than you've described. With two track circuits in the platform line and two measuring berth track circuits at the signal, it was possible to admit a second train of, say, four cars' length into a partially occupied platform, while also ensuring that no more than two locos could approach a fully occupied platform.

Incidentally, Lime Street Control was named after the location where it was first implemented, and not the site of an accident that led to its inception.

 

[O L Leigh]

I recall waiting for my train to Newcastle, which I reserved as a Voyager, instead a HST pulled into Platform 3 at Glasgow Central. Platform 3 can really only handle a 6 coach train maximum, so the rear power car and the two first class carriages were all hanging off, meaning the points were blocked.

That's the sort of thing that should be covered by a driver's route knowledge and ought to have been challenged by the driver.

When I was involved in signalling / interlocking design ( a good few years ago), there was something termed “ Lime Street Control”, the concept being that for regularly used permissive moves, the platform track circuits were split and also the berth track circuit of the approach signal was also split, so in effect these multiple track circuits were termed “measuring” tracks.
This effectively meant that the signaller could see from the panel if the train would be able to fit in the platform behind another.
I recall that if the train was ”measured” to be too long, the signal would not clear.
Signalling Principles may have changed in the last few years of course.

The principal was called “Lime Street Control” after an incident at Liverpool apparently

Liverpool Street also has (had?) this arrangement, although it is not foolproof. I can remember seeing a 4 car Cl317 nose-to-nose with a shortened mainline set with only about a coach and a half accommodated because the system had permitted the routing.

I will just say that, at the majority of locations, if you get "the dots" at the last signal you cannot see where you're going to end up and so you do not know whether or not your train will fit at the point where you pass the signal. I have sometimes quickly called up the box to check but it's always been fine whenever I have done so.

 

[Scotrail314209]

That's the sort of thing that should be covered by a driver's route knowledge and ought to have been challenged by the driver.

I recall the driver was on their phone (presumably to control) after pulling in saying that she just took a HST into Platform 3. We had a 12 minute delay while they got us ready to go, presumably manually setting the points.

 

[DoubleO]

If I receive a position light when being signalled into a platform I ring the signaller to confirm the available platform length for my unit. Every time.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

The signal box had a view of the station and service trains were using the occupied platform (as well as all other available platforms)

 

[Ken H]

The signal box had a view of the station and service trains were using the occupied platform (as well as all other available platforms)

Maybe busy terminal platforms need CCTV for the signaller to see whats occuring.

 

[ComUtoR]

There was an incident where the looked out the window and eyeballed it for permissive working. Suffice to say that two trains went crunch. Good communication and quality information is pretty much all thats required. Signallers all over the country regularly signal permissive moves without the need to eyeball it.

 

[GB]

The signal box had a view of the station and service trains were using the occupied platform (as well as all other available platforms)

Was the Littlehampton by chance?

 

[dan4291]

If I receive a position light when being signalled into a platform I ring the signaller to confirm the available platform length for my unit. Every time.

Same here, does no harm to double check what you're going on top of. The signallers I've spoke to have always been OK about it too.

 

[Efini92]

You can't blame the driver. The purpose of a calling signal signal is to inform the driver the platform ahead is already occupied so drive the train to stop short of an obstruction.

Seems to me just an operating incident that you want to avoid but one of those things that occasionally happen. Of course when signallers could look at the box window and see what was going on they may have had better knowledge rather than sitting remotely in a front of a VDU.

It depends on the scenario. If it’s a through service and they’ve been put on top of something the driver would have to take some responsibility.