South Wales electrification

[IanXC]

Going off topic, but using carriages from the Pretendolino to lengthen HSTs would be just as expensive as converting buffet cars: Loco hauled mark 3s are not compatible with HST mark 3s. They would have to rip out all the interior fittings and change all the wiring and electrics, as Grand Central did with their converted loco hauled mark 3s.

I would have thought that completely stripping out the coaches, replacing whole sections damaged by water during their use as buffets, cutting new windows and so on, would be more time consuming and costly than a simple refurb and rewiring? Although on second thoughts maybe there wouldn't be that much in it either way.

 

[Solaris]

Does anyone have any more up to date news re the inclusion of valley lines electrification in the HLOS (and if so, the scope). Yesterday's annoucment that the valleys will qualify for further EU Structural funds post 2014 could be relevant?

 

[anthony263]

Yes you are correct however I think we wont fully know until July which is when a lot of people are expecting an annoucement that the Midlan Mainline will be getting wired although I hope the Valley Lines get wired first ideally before 2020

 

[paul1609]

Surely it would be more efficient to convert the relatively self contained Valley lines to a light rail system like the Tyne and Wear metro rather than heavy rail electrification?

 

[DXMachina]

That kills off interoperability with other routes and future changes to service patterns

Viz all the routes on Tyneside that can never have through services due to the wrong electrification, and the need to coexist with tinfoil tramcars

 

[anthony263]

I agree it would be a mistake to convert the valley lines to light rail operation.

 

[Greenback]

Surely it would be more efficient to convert the relatively self contained Valley lines to a light rail system like the Tyne and Wear metro rather than heavy rail electrification?

I don't think it would be either beneficial or efficient to convert the lines, but maybe you could explain why you think it would?

 

[Gareth Marston]

Does anyone have any more up to date news re the inclusion of valley lines electrification in the HLOS (and if so, the scope). Yesterday's annoucment that the valleys will qualify for further EU Structural funds post 2014 could be relevant?

The Welsh Government (Labour) have steadfastly refused to use structural funds moneys on rail electrification. The Transport Minister is on record as saying the WG will not be told what to do or words to that effect.

 

[daniel3982]

I don't think it would be either beneficial or efficient to convert the lines, but maybe you could explain why you think it would?

One argument might be the huge reduction in subsidies and more frequent services that light rail conversion would bring, though I know it's not a popular one on this forum.

 

[HSTEd]

One argument might be the huge reduction in subsidies and more frequent services that light rail conversion would bring, though I know it's not a popular one on this forum.

Well there is no particular reason you can't push the Valley lines service to tramway style levels without going for trams.

And how exactly would conversion to light rail reduce subsidies? It could only do so by pushing fares through the roof.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Well there is no particular reason you can't push the Valley lines service to tramway style levels without going for trams.

And how exactly would conversion to light rail reduce subsidies? It could only do so by pushing fares through the roof.

Whats the point? Where will these tram trains go? Down Queen St and St Mary St - there's no room for them on Queen St. Cathays, Queen St and Central stations are all very well placed as it is to the center of Cardiff. There's nothing to be gained except lots of expense and disruption.

The obvious place for light rail in Cardiff is on the corridors not served by rail a line from Cardiff Gate - Roath- City Centre with Bay branch out along the Cowbridge Road to Ely on a east - west axis makes more sense.

 

[Rhydgaled]

If approved, I imagine the Valleys and Swansea will be electrified as an extension of the GWML scheme. That's scheduled to reach Cardiff in 2017, so I'd expect the Valleys and Swansea to be finished 2018/2019. Crossrail also starts in 2018 doesn't it, and doesn't it replace Heathrow Express? If so, is a future use planned for the Heathrow Express Class 332 units? If not, and if you can't get 3-car 377s (or very similar) for south Wales, then could the 332s move to south Wales? They might be useful for Swanline, Swansea - Bristol and Maesteg - Ebbw Vale.

 

[Chris125]

I think 332's in South Wales might be best described as 'wishful thinking'!

Even if Crossrail replaces Heathrow Express at the first opportunity, which is far from guaranteed, cascaded 315's and the like with their lower leasing costs would be much more appropriate for the commuter-style services in South Wales than ex-HEx units.

Chris

 

[Rhydgaled]

I think 332's in South Wales might be best described as 'wishful thinking'!

Even if Crossrail replaces Heathrow Express at the first opportunity, which is far from guaranteed, cascaded 315's and the like with their lower leasing costs would be much more appropriate for the commuter-style services in South Wales than ex-HEx units.

Chris

I'd rather have 3-car 377s in south-Wales than ex-Heathrow Express units anyway, the corridor connections make 377s more useful. I just thought ex-Heathrow units might be slightly more likely than 377s. An old 75mph EMU, one of the classes that look like an electric version of a class 150, would be ok for the lines through Cardiff Queen Street, but the Swansea - Cardiff all-stops (Swanline), the Swansea - Bristol service I'd like to see added (with a stop at Pyle so the diesel Manchesters don't need to make any calls there), Cardiff - Cheltenham (if electrified) and Maesteg - Ebbw Vale might find 100mph stock useful.

 

[anthony263]

If Heathrow express is withdrawn personally I wouldnt be too surprised to see the Heathrow Express units being used on services such as the Manchester Airport - Glasgow/Edinbirgh route or perhaps going to Northern although they would reuire a new interior.

I too am banking on the class 315's being used on the Cardiff Valley lines network hoever I would like to see some units with a higher top speed than the class 315's used on Cardiff - Maesteg/Swansea/Ebbw Vale services if the wires reach those destination because they do use the mainline for some or all of their journeys.

The class 315's would be ok providing they get a refurbishement like that which Southern did to their class 313's and SWT did to the class 455's and sort out the corrosion problem which has been a problem for the class 315's


The scotrail class 318's do remind me a bit of a class 150

 

[PhilipW]

My understanding is that after Crossrail is operating:
-- 'Heathrow Express' with its Class 332 units remains
-- 'Heathrow Connect' with its Class 360 units is scrapped and its services taken over by Crossrail.

Therefore only the Class 360 units are available for use elsewhere.

 

[anthony263]

Yes I know however the paths for Heathrow express are only up to 2023 so BAA could decide not to renew them especially if many passengers choose to use crossrail perhaps with some crossrail services running semi fast from Heathrow to London.

 

[tbtc]

Yes I know however the paths for Heathrow express are only up to 2023 so BAA could decide not to renew them especially if many passengers choose to use crossrail perhaps with some crossrail services running semi fast from Heathrow to London

Nothing has been agreed yet, as I understand it.

Whilst it would be more efficient to run additional Crossrail services to Heathrow, it would mean toilet-less stock without the on-board "ambience" that HeX provide their passengers with - I can see why BAA may be reluctant to downgrade the service that they can currently charge £15 for.

 

[jopsuk]

As for the 315s, why do people seem to eb so keen to lumber the Welsh valleys with what will be nearly 40 yr old stock (over)due for retirement? Surely the electrified valleys deserve new stock!

 

[ainsworth74]

Surely the electrified valleys deserve new stock!

West Yorkshire didn't and it seems likely that most of the new Lancashire routes will see second hand stock rather than new stock.

 

[anthony263]

As for the 315s, why do people seem to eb so keen to lumber the Welsh valleys with what will be nearly 40 yr old stock (over)due for retirement? Surely the electrified valleys deserve new stock!

Because they are cheaper rather than new build and too be honest some of the hst's are being rebuilt etc for use beyond 2020 and they are around a similar age.

The class 315's should be useful to use on the Cardiff Valley lines for a few years after being re-built and overhauled to meet DDA rules.
hopefully after a few years brand new emu's could be ordered like what happened in yorkshire before they ordered the class 333's and how sucessful they have proved.

 

[YorkshireBear]

As for the 315s, why do people seem to eb so keen to lumber the Welsh valleys with what will be nearly 40 yr old stock (over)due for retirement? Surely the electrified valleys deserve new stock!

Because it helps the case for the electrification. Let new stock come when the lines prove popular, as ainsworth says... Yorkshie didnt, Lancashire won't. Still better than pacers????

 

[anthony263]

Because it helps the case for the electrification. Let new stock come when the lines prove popular, as ainsworth says... Yorkshie didnt, Lancashire won't. Still better than pacers????

Yes most certainly the class 315's even as they are today are better than the pacers especially the class 142's

 

[Gareth Marston]

agree a cascaded refurbished 1980's EMU will probably leave Valley folk in awe of rail travel such is the difference in standard to a Pacer. Merseyrail shows what can be done with older stock.

 

[Waverley125]

as I remember the 'sparks effect' isn't conditional on rolling stock. The A&W saw big jump when it moved from pacers to 305s, which justified a later outlay on the 333s. These then generated further growth, which allowed for their being extended to 4 cars from the original 3.

The lines being electrified now wil get old stock, and will get new when that finally runs beyond its useful life.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Agreed - lets get electrification rolling and worry about rolling stock later.

 

[Batman]

I'd love to see how long it takes before this becomes a reality.

Remember that it took 15 years of campaigning before electrification of the Birmingham Cross City line became a reality.

My guess is that nothing will be done before 2020.

 

[Rhydgaled]

My guess is that nothing will be done before 2020.

If ValleyLines electrification doesn't happen by 2020, then either the government is going to have to give a mass exemption of Pacers from the disability regs or alot of new DMUs will be ordered that will mean ValleyLines electrification could be canceled altogether.

 

[Batman]

If ValleyLines electrification doesn't happen by 2020, then either the government is going to have to give a mass exemption of Pacers from the disability regs or alot of new DMUs will be ordered that will mean ValleyLines electrification could be canceled altogether.

My guess is that 172's will probably be ordered as pacer replacements, with electrification happening in the mid 2020's and those 172's being cascaded to the north of England to start replacing sprinters.

Has it now been set in stone that after January 1st 2020, we'll only be seeing pacers on heritage railways?

 

[Rhydgaled]

My guess is that 172's will probably be ordered as pacer replacements, with electrification happening in the mid 2020's and those 172's being cascaded to the north of England to start replacing sprinters.

My opinion is that 172s are suitable replacments for Pacers and 150s on the sort of route they should be on (although a fair few of those are used where they shouldn't be). However the outer-suburban door layout of a 172 makes them inappropriate replacments for class 153,156,158 and 159 units. Your guess sounds like a reasonable plan otherwise though I suppose.

Has it now been set in stone that after January 1st 2020, we'll only be seeing pacers on heritage railways?

I beleive so, unless they are modified to be compliant, run under heritage rules (as per the Lymington slammers) or the government exercise their right to grant exceptions to the disability regs.