South Western Railway - a mixed start to life as a TOC?

[Goldfish62]

Personally, after a rather torid start mainly due to infrastructure failures I find SWR to be ok. I've not had a serious delay for a couple of months and internal cleanliness has definitely improved. The toilets are now mainly working on the 458s and there are now notices on the toilet doors encouraging people to report out of order or poor condition toilets. All much better than SWT who never cared about the internal condition of the 458s.

On the debit side, I lose out quite substantially due to the loss of the free weekend tickets for Gold Card holders

 

[bb21]

I believe the dedicated SWR DOO thread was locked, but happy to be corrected.

There are several so I won't open an old one but you are welcome to continue any such discussion in the thread about the most recent industrial dispute which is still open, as long as all is civil and good-natured.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...eekend-30-3-to-2-4.161996/page-9#post-3420579

 

[Bessie]

After some early teething troubles SWR have settled in pretty well. I think they learnt a lesson with their consultation for the Dec 2018 timetable changes and the deluge of comments they received. By and large they appear to have listened and I look forward to seeing the Waterloo-Reading line improvements once platforms 20-24 are fully opened at Waterloo.

 

[infobleep]

What are you on about here with “operated by Thameslink”? Hasn't this been explained as an error in the data?

I don't know. Perhaps it has. I've not seen that or if I have, I'd forgotten it.

 

[Goldfish62]

There are several so I won't open an old one but you are welcome to continue any such discussion in the thread about the most recent industrial dispute which is still open, as long as all is civil and good-natured.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...eekend-30-3-to-2-4.161996/page-9#post-3420579

Thanks for pointing us to that.

 

[infobleep]

After some early teething troubles SWR have settled in pretty well. I think they learnt a lesson with their consultation for the Dec 2018 timetable changes and the deluge of comments they received. By and large they appear to have listened and I look forward to seeing the Waterloo-Reading line improvements once platforms 20-24 are fully opened at Waterloo.

I wonder if they will listen to my comment about reducing the connection time at Surbtion to enable longer distance passengers, who won't be able to get as many trains from Clapham Junction, to board an earlier connecting service. It's just a cross platform change.

If they don't think people will be able to make such a connection then that would mean they would be expecting regular delays.

 

[pompeyfan]

Is it possible to find easy to digest data as to fleet related delays and cancellations. Many people are of the opinion that the mainline fleet are suffering more issues than under stagecoach but there’s no evidence either way and I suspect people are relying on rose tinted glasses. Certainly the short forms on the 1Lxx diesel services to through Salisbury, as well as a few that have sat down quite noticeably would seem to back that theory up.

 

[Goldfish62]

The latest National Passenger Survey scores are now on the Transport Focus website.

SWR stands at 80, 1 point above the LSE average (pre-GTR meltdown!). Compared to last Spring it's down 2 points, but up 5 points compared to last autumn.

 

[infobleep]

Tonight here is a broken down train at Clapahm Junction so suburban trains can't use platform 11. Some but not all are thus not stopping at Vaxuhall and Earlsfield. However they are stopping at Clapahm Junction and using platform 9. Now platform 9 is the fast line.

Were this to occur in December and the draft consultation timetable to have been implemented as is, would all these suburban trains have skipped Clapham Junction as at this moment in time no fast trains would be due to call at Clapham Junction? The whole point of skipping it is to enable more trains to run. Tonight more trains are stopping at it leading to delays. The problem occured around 18.39, so once fast line trains were again stopping at Clapahm Junction.

When fast trains from the South West are delayed and the Clapham Junction stop is removed, they never seen to add in a special stop on a following service. The same applies from Waterloo too.

I assume this because the infrastructure cannot cope. Yet here they are this evening running lots of additional services through it and stopping them at it too. Of course the infrastructure can't cope. It wouldn't even cope if the trains weren't stopping there as they still need to use the line, with platform 11 being blocked. Of course by not stopping it would speed up the service as don't you need 2-4 mintues to stop at train at Clapahm Junction?

I guess what I'm saying is that it seems to be ok to stop slow trains at platform.9 during disruption but not fast trains.

Stopping slow trains there is of course delaying fast trains. To the point where I got a delayed slow train from Surbtion because it looked to be faster than a non stop one. The non stop one was delsyed on its inbound journey by 14 minutes due to signalling issue. However it left London 22 minutes late and is currently 42 minutes late. Not even reached Surbtion yet.

 

[NaZzAtAzEr]

There were also additional trains to stop at Twickenham for the Rolling Stones concert that was going to serve around 30,000 people, but because of these incidents they closed Twickenham and told us to walk to Richmond station, which had restricted service. I think it was a complete mess as there was a lack of communication as station staff didn't really know what to do and the Twitter team not providing much information. Ticket acceptance wasn't enforced by other TOCs leaving people stranded in London. They could have done so much better just by communication, which I feel was lacking.

 

[infobleep]

There were also additional trains to stop at Twickenham for the Rolling Stones concert that was going to serve around 30,000 people, but because of these incidents they closed Twickenham and told us to walk to Richmond station, which had restricted service. I think it was a complete mess as there was a lack of communication as station staff didn't really know what to do and the Twitter team not providing much information. Ticket acceptance wasn't enforced by other TOCs leaving people stranded in London. They could have done so much better just by communication, which I feel was lacking.

So the Twitter team work that late? I think they do.

I find when it gets later the information given out gets worse. I've never had a help point answered at night. Even emwgenwxy was ignored when used. I didn't use it myself but someone else did. I guess if it's a real emergency someone should be ring lijt 999 and not using that. Not sure what the point of that is but that's for another discussion.

 

[infobleep]

See Twickenham to Richmond is a 35 minute walk.

Did people only know this once they reached Twickenham station or were anouncements made at the gig.

Of course why should they tell the gig organisers, is nothing to do with them you night say.

However if that is the case why mention the gig on Journey Check and ask people to leave earlier to reach the gig in the first class?

If anyone really was stranded, I hope they contact the TOC to sort it out as SWR has a legal due to get them home. Whether they'd rather not have that duty doesn't change the fact they do.

Perhaps tweet ones MP or one of the Transport Select Committee MPs .After all there is a review on going.

 

[43096]

There were also additional trains to stop at Twickenham for the Rolling Stones concert that was going to serve around 30,000 people, but because of these incidents they closed Twickenham and told us to walk to Richmond station, which had restricted service. I think it was a complete mess as there was a lack of communication as station staff didn't really know what to do and the Twitter team not providing much information. Ticket acceptance wasn't enforced by other TOCs leaving people stranded in London. They could have done so much better just by communication, which I feel was lacking.

Have to say that last night was the biggest shambles I have witnessed in many years of travelling into Waterloo.

Just how two train failures on the main suburban side leads to the complete collapse of the entire service needs to be explained. The last Waterloo-Reading left at 2020, and there was only one or two trains that ran on the down on the Windsor lines after 2100 until close of service, and none beyond Staines.

To be blunt, control completely lost control and went into headless chicken mode. The service, the information provision, everything, was an utter disgrace.

It’s certainly not getting better under WorstGroup.

 

[SWT_USER]

Have to say that last night was the biggest shambles I have witnessed in many years of travelling into Waterloo.

Just how two train failures on the main suburban side leads to the complete collapse of the entire service needs to be explained. The last Waterloo-Reading left at 2020, and there was only one or two trains that ran on the down on the Windsor lines after 2100 until close of service, and none beyond Staines.

To be blunt, control completely lost control and went into headless chicken mode. The service, the information provision, everything, was an utter disgrace.

It’s certainly not getting better under WorstGroup.

Agreed. They weren't even being cancelled properly in the system, everything just showing 'delayed' indefinitely so no idea whether or not anything was going to run.

 

[bb21]

Just how two train failures on the main suburban side leads to the complete collapse of the entire service needs to be explained.

Well, you can start with two lots of passcomms being pulled and idiots letting themselves onto the tracks, blocking Vauxhall one on each side for a considerable period of time. Quite obviously people aren't taking notice of those poor sods who lost their lives in the Loughborough Junction incident and/or learning from their fate.

If you actually put yourself in the shoes of those controllers last night you may then appreciate how much they had on their hands last night.

It’s certainly not getting better under WorstGroup.

FirstGroup may not be top performers yet. They are certainly doing much better than when they first took over. Stagecoach didn't exactly leave the franchise in a good shape.

Anyone still insisting that FirstGroup weren't getting any better is living in cloud cuckoo land. I would have agreed with that a couple of months ago. They have made big strides since.

 

[dctraindriver]

Well, you can start with two lots of passcomms being pulled and idiots letting themselves onto the tracks, blocking Vauxhall one on each side for a considerable period of time. Quite obviously people aren't taking notice of those poor sods who lost their lives in the Loughborough Junction incident and/or learning from their fate.

If you actually put yourself in the shoes of those controllers last night you may then appreciate how much they had on their hands last night.



FirstGroup may not be top performers yet. They are certainly doing much better than when they first took over. Stagecoach didn't exactly leave the franchise in a good shape.

Anyone still insisting that FirstGroup weren't getting any better is living in cloud cuckoo land. I would have agreed with that a couple of months ago. They have made big strides since.

Well said, I’ve only got to think about my train, those lot have to look at the whole network. Easy to criticise but walk a mile in their shoes before judging......

Total plonkers leaving the train causing undue delays and stress for staff on those trains and those working behind the scenes.

 

[infobleep]

Well, you can start with two lots of passcomms being pulled and idiots letting themselves onto the tracks, blocking Vauxhall one on each side for a considerable period of time. Quite obviously people aren't taking notice of those poor sods who lost their lives in the Loughborough Junction incident and/or learning from their fate.

If you actually put yourself in the shoes of those controllers last night you may then appreciate how much they had on their hands last night.



FirstGroup may not be top performers yet. They are certainly doing much better than when they first took over. Stagecoach didn't exactly leave the franchise in a good shape.

Anyone still insisting that FirstGroup weren't getting any better is living in cloud cuckoo land. I would have agreed with that a couple of months ago. They have made big strides since.

When did the passengers detrain themselves. I get the impression people working in control were overwhelmed with the situation and thus not able to give out advice. It could be understandable if things got really bad.

The first I've heard about passengers detraining themselves is just now. I think that kind of thing needs to be highlighted to others during disruption as a reason for further delays and why you shouldn't do it.

 

[bb21]

2D55 (Main) and 2C64 (Windsor) were the two trains involved. I can't link to them atm as I'm on my phone but they can be found on RTT/OTT fairly easily.

Of course 2D55 just had to be on the Down Main Fast when it happened due to the failed 2D53 on the DMS.

 

[infobleep]

2D55 (Main) and 2C64 (Windsor) were the two trains involved. I can't link to them atm as I'm on my phone but they can be found on RTT/OTT fairly easily.

Of course 2D55 just had to be on the Down Main Fast when it happened due to the failed 2D53 on the DMS.

Thanks

 

[infobleep]

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W12178/2018/06/19/advanced

This service was cancelled between Vauxhall and Guildford due to disorder (VA).
London Waterloo [WAT] 2 1839 1858¼ 19L
Waterloo Carlisle Lane Jn pass 1841 pass 1859¾ 18L
Vauxhall [VXH] 6 1843 1844 1919¼ 77L

This is one of the trains. I was at Woking during part of this time and I don't remember any reference to this occuring. I'm sure I heard someone was taken ill at Wimbledon or was that Vaxuhall.

If someone is caught smoking or riding a sakeboard at a station you get an announcement about not doing that. If people are detraining then they diffinitely need to announce it. It's far more dangerous than smoking or skateboarding.

 

[43096]

2D55 (Main) and 2C64 (Windsor) were the two trains involved. I can't link to them atm as I'm on my phone but they can be found on RTT/OTT fairly easily.

Of course 2D55 just had to be on the Down Main Fast when it happened due to the failed 2D53 on the DMS.

2C64 is 1912 Reading-Waterloo. It passed Vauxhall 14 late and lost an hour between there and Waterloo, at least in part because control kept feeding more trains in and clogged the platforms up, rather than terminating at Clapham (which they did do eventually, but sent nothing back out on the down).

I cannot state this more clearly: control completely lost their heads last night. Not for the first time they were utterly incapable of managing the situation. It is completely, totally, and utterly unacceptable to cancel everything after 2045ish on the Windsor side, particularly with two major events going on. When you get to the stage of suggesting that a stadium full of people in Twickenham walk to Richmond (which is what happened last night), then you have lost the plot.

 

[43096]

FirstGroup may not be top performers yet. They are certainly doing much better than when they first took over. Stagecoach didn't exactly leave the franchise in a good shape.

Anyone still insisting that FirstGroup weren't getting any better is living in cloud cuckoo land. I would have agreed with that a couple of months ago. They have made big strides since.

They were getting better. Some things are still worse, like time-keeping, but that is down to the WorstGroup "crawl around at 5mph" policy imported from GWR.

The real big tests will be if they can introduce the new timetable without issues and get the Aventra fleet into service reliably.

 

[bb21]

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W12178/2018/06/19/advanced
This is one of the trains. I was at Woking during part of this time and I don't remember any reference to this occuring. I'm sure I heard someone was taken ill at Wimbledon or was that Vaxuhall.

2D51 had someone taken ill at Earlesfield. That would have been the one quoted as that resulted in some knock-ons before the failed train incident took over.

 

[bb21]

2C64 is 1912 Reading-Waterloo. It passed Vauxhall 14 late and lost an hour between there and Waterloo, at least in part because control kept feeding more trains in and clogged the platforms up, rather than terminating at Clapham (which they did do eventually, but sent nothing back out on the down).

Control did turn anything with in and out crew short where they could. On top of that, Clapham can only turn 4 trains an hour which I'm sure you know.

I cannot state this more clearly: control completely lost their heads last night. Not for the first time they were utterly incapable of managing the situation. It is completely, totally, and utterly unacceptable to cancel everything after 2045ish on the Windsor side, particularly with two major events going on. When you get to the stage of suggesting that a stadium full of people in Twickenham walk to Richmond (which is what happened last night), then you have lost the plot.

I suggest that unless you know what went on in the room you refrain from such comments as "completely lost their heads". They wouldn't have got everything right but your criticism is totally unjustified. Experienced controllers would never say things like that knowing how many variables would have been involved at the time and the complexity of it effectively closing Waterloo down. I hardly doubt anyone would have done much better when one thing after another occurred at crucial points of the network throwing out service recovery plans drafted one after another.

If you disagree with closing Twickenham station yesterday given the level of disruption, I suggest that you do a shift at crowd control at the station after an event at the stadium and then look at yesterday's situation again. Keeping it open in yesterday's settings would only result in one thing - station closure before long, either through a safety of the line incident or severe overcrowding at the station. Far better to keep crowds moving, during which process they naturally disperse, rather than allowing them to congregate towards one focal point, when required capacity isn't there.

I get it. You are annoyed you had to walk/use the bus instead, but such is life. Sometimes things go wrong for various reasons and they often seem to occur at the worst possible times. Keep an open mind if things aren't quite what you would like them to be. No one takes the decision to close major railheads easily. No one enjoys making people walk unnecessarily. They wouldn't have done it if they had other better options.

 

[Antman]

Long time lurker who got so irked by the railway attitude or probably the internal lack of appreciation as to how it plays out to passengers here.

The problem is that the platform staff run and hide when there’s a problem. They become invisible. Loads around day to day, then problem and poof, they’re gone. Then you have a total lack of information given to passengers, even if that information is “look we just can’t tell you right now”. Then you have benny hill style platform changes as the trains change routes to fit in (I get why but it looks shambolic). Tuesday evening was a joke for passengers. We get that so many problems are network rail, we get that idiot passengers and trespassers do idiot things, but just tell us. Don’t decide we don’t need to know. And if you don’t know, admit it.

This has been an issue at WAT and CLJ especially. I have taken it up with customer service - you get no decipherable response.

As an aside I myself got landed with a penalty fare for getting out of Waterloo (when trains were again a shambles with no information - plan is always to get the first train out and work it out from there yourself) and using a route advertised on the Trainline - then SWR fined me for choosing to go to Woking and changing to a stopper back - who chooses to go to Woking ? No amount of sensible (non aggressive) reasoning would work - they just wanted twenty quid. I like railways, but treating passengers like this just alienated us.

(To be fair the Guildford station staff have always been excellent....)

 

[HowardGWR]

I travelled partially on SWR yesterday (Gatwick to Dorchester via Barnham). At Southampton and on the 1821 to Weymouth (16 late), I was treated with unfailing courtesy by staff, with whom I (purposely) spoke.

Against that, the PIS screens at Southampton are crap, but I understand the station is awaiting rebuilding. It certainly needs it. I hope they keep the Southern art deco features though.

PS: Dorchester South station is in need of updating too! Both outwith SWR's control, I assume, as much else.

 

[pompeyfan]

I didn’t realise there was an uncontrolled evacuation, everything I read (internally and externally) suggested 2D53 with the axle fault, 2D55 with the passcom being snapped off and the points failure?

I wonder if the uncontrolled de-training was covered up to prevent planting the idea in everyone else’s head.

3 1Pxx down services got to Vauxhall and were sent back to Waterloo. It seems like there was confusion and no one wanted to make a decision. I suppose it’s unreasonable to expect one TSM to look after hundreds of trains and get everything right.

 

[43096]

Control did turn anything with in and out crew short where they could. On top of that, Clapham can only turn 4 trains an hour which I'm sure you know.



I suggest that unless you know what went on in the room you refrain from such comments as "completely lost their heads". They wouldn't have got everything right but your criticism is totally unjustified. Experienced controllers would never say things like that knowing how many variables would have been involved at the time and the complexity of it effectively closing Waterloo down. I hardly doubt anyone would have done much better when one thing after another occurred at crucial points of the network throwing out service recovery plans drafted one after another.

If you disagree with closing Twickenham station yesterday given the level of disruption, I suggest that you do a shift at crowd control at the station after an event at the stadium and then look at yesterday's situation again. Keeping it open in yesterday's settings would only result in one thing - station closure before long, either through a safety of the line incident or severe overcrowding at the station. Far better to keep crowds moving, during which process they naturally disperse, rather than allowing them to congregate towards one focal point, when required capacity isn't there.

I get it. You are annoyed you had to walk/use the bus instead, but such is life. Sometimes things go wrong for various reasons and they often seem to occur at the worst possible times. Keep an open mind if things aren't quite what you would like them to be. No one takes the decision to close major railheads easily. No one enjoys making people walk unnecessarily. They wouldn't have done it if they had other better options.

I stand by everything I said.

Your post shows what is wrong with the railway. Too many staff think it is a giant train set run for the railway’s benefit and forget that people are paying to use the service.

You assume I had to walk/bus. Nope, I went to Paddington, used GWR and then taxi (at SWR’s cost) - but that only because I’m an enthusiast and know the options. That the Bakerloo line was empty and I was the only one for a taxi shows how non-existent information was.

Good to see SWR’s incompetence has made the national press: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/06/20/train-chaos-left-rolling-stones-fans-two-hour-walk-gig/

 

[theironroad]

I travelled partially on SWR yesterday (Gatwick to Dorchester via Barnham). At Southampton and on the 1821 to Weymouth (16 late), I was treated with unfailing courtesy by staff, with whom I (purposely) spoke.

Against that, the PIS screens at Southampton are crap, but I understand the station is awaiting rebuilding. It certainly needs it. I hope they keep the Southern art deco features though.

PS: Dorchester South station is in need of updating too! Both outwith SWR's control, I assume, as much else.

The PIS screens at Southampton were replaced a year or so ago. The older ones were bigger and much easier to read and seemed reliable. Pretty much every staff member who works/uses Southampton agree that the screens were a downgrade. why they were changed I don't know.

Dorchester is in need of a major upgrade as platform shelter by the old mail/goods dock looks like it will fall down soon. I think there were/are plans, but tied in with the brewery square redevelopment so not sure what's going on.

 

[theironroad]

Control did turn anything with in and out crew short where they could. On top of that, Clapham can only turn 4 trains an hour which I'm sure you know.



I suggest that unless you know what went on in the room you refrain from such comments as "completely lost their heads". They wouldn't have got everything right but your criticism is totally unjustified. Experienced controllers would never say things like that knowing how many variables would have been involved at the time and the complexity of it effectively closing Waterloo down. I hardly doubt anyone would have done much better when one thing after another occurred at crucial points of the network throwing out service recovery plans drafted one after another.

If you disagree with closing Twickenham station yesterday given the level of disruption, I suggest that you do a shift at crowd control at the station after an event at the stadium and then look at yesterday's situation again. Keeping it open in yesterday's settings would only result in one thing - station closure before long, either through a safety of the line incident or severe overcrowding at the station. Far better to keep crowds moving, during which process they naturally disperse, rather than allowing them to congregate towards one focal point, when required capacity isn't there.

I get it. You are annoyed you had to walk/use the bus instead, but such is life. Sometimes things go wrong for various reasons and they often seem to occur at the worst possible times. Keep an open mind if things aren't quite what you would like them to be. No one takes the decision to close major railheads easily. No one enjoys making people walk unnecessarily. They wouldn't have done it if they had other better options.

I'm not getting into debate about this incident, but suffice to say that you said pretty much exactly the same things after the snow and stranded trains debacle and that's pretty much control are almost perfect with just a slight chink in their process.

Who knows if anything has changed, certainly doesn't seem to have. Even if the control echo chamber thinks it's done a good job, there is very little confidence among many drivers and guards and frontline station staff to get good, rapid decisions made and to get that information disseminated to staff and public alike. While control isn't responsible for the train failure or infrastructure issues, their major role is clearing up the mess and restoring service after the event.

You can deny there is a problem as much as you like, but to use your own defence of control staff, you should try walking in the shoes of those front line, passenger facing staff who have to take the abuse and the polite passengers who, not unreasonably, want to know what is going on and why their trains are so delayed or cancelled.