Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[ComUtoR]

So what was the problem?

When your train is required to be assisted by another you must lay detonator protection in the direction of the assistance. (yes there are exceptions)

It could be a very basic problem (loss of air) (loss of shoe gear) or something more complicated.

300 yrds on ballast is a nightmare. ! Leaving passengers unattended is not something done lightly but it can and will happen.

 

[the sniper]

So what was the problem?

Leaving a train full of passengers on a completely unmanned train for an indefinite amount of time?

 

[Agent_c]

Leaving a train full of passengers on a completely unmanned train for an indefinite amount of time?

I wanna give him the benefit of the doubt and presume he's asking about the root cause.

 

[ComUtoR]

I wanna give him the benefit of the doubt and presume he's asking about the root cause.

I presume the train broke and needed hooking up to something to help it out.

 

[ainsworth74]

I wanna give him the benefit of the doubt and presume he's asking about the root cause.

Well that's how I've been reading the question!

 

[Agent_c]

I presume the train broke and needed hooking up to something to help it out.

Yes, he wants to know what broke.

 

[PakRail]

Most of the new trains around have guard despatch from the train and unable to look out. Also many times I have seen guards despatch from the front of 10 coach trains.

In that case the Guard will step off the train and be able to see the stairs onto the platform. Something the driver cannot see from the cameras. Therefore if someone is running at the train from the stairs and the doors are closed or closing the Guard can shout out a warning.

 

[carriageline]

Yes, he wants to know what broke.

If it's the incident I knew/heard about, then it was iced over conductor rail, but could be completely different.

 

[ComUtoR]

Yes, he wants to know what broke.

I kinda get that but its not really relevant to the discussion at hand. A unit may need assistance for a plethora of reasons and when it does assistance protection needs to be provided. The train was broken, what is there to discuss that is relevant ? We try and strive for a modern railway and consistently praise how safe it all is. So why do we still need to stick dets down ?

The Driver must leave the train unattended. You will be sitting there with no communication from the Driver. Customer service is flat zero during that time. It's even worse during emergency protection as your off walking working a mile and a quarter down the track. The recent derailment has been brought up a few times and without that onboard Guard I dread to think what could have happened. The Driver left a derailed train and went to provide protection. In DOO land that would be quite scary for some passengers.

You have to ask yourself how important that customer service is.

Down in DOO land its non existent and the level of vitriol aimed at the TOC's is quite clear. I really can't imagine long distance, mainline services without on board staff. Reading through the forum you can see the importance of on board staff and how passengers are affected as more and more services are removed on board.

 

[68000]

Leaving a train full of passengers on a completely unmanned train for an indefinite amount of time?

That is the impact of the problem with the train
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I wanna give him the benefit of the doubt and presume he's asking about the root cause.

I presume the train broke and needed hooking up to something to help it out.

Well that's how I've been reading the question!

Yes, he wants to know what broke.

Indeed, that was my query

 

[carriageline]

That is the impact of the problem with the train

Can you clarify? I really don't get the point your trying to make

 

[Goldfish62]

Because the guard usually has their head out of the cab window until the whole train has left the platform. After the driver has interlock and has checked the dispatch corridor his/her eyes are on the road ahead. Above 3mph the cab CCTV monitors switch off anyway to stop distraction.

It's unusual to see an SWT guard with their head out of a window as the train leaves the platform. And while it would be possible when despatching from a cab on Desiros and Junipers it's not possible with 455s as they are instructed to close the cab door before giving the bell.

 

[BestWestern]

It's unusual to see an SWT guard with their head out of a window as the train leaves the platform. And while it would be possible when despatching from a cab on Desiros and Junipers it's not possible with 455s as they are instructed to close the cab door before giving the bell.

The ideal dispatch situation should see the Guard placing themselves somewhere between the middle and the rear of their train; the further to the rear the better. An open window is a very good thing, but sadly is a rarity on modern stock. This still gives a significant advantage over a Driver simply closing the doors and then transferring their attention away from the platform train interface completely.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I would give them the guarantee of being on each one, as a required safety role. With that assured, does it matter who routinely pushes the button if the guard/OBS remains qualified to do so, and can be called upon by the driver, where they feel it's necessary, to do it?

Would that be worth a strike?

This is the point; aside from the safety issue we also have the job security issue. DOO is designed to save money. You clearly don't save money by continuing to pay a Guard the same whilst at the same time transferring his duties to the Driver, and very probably paying him more. That is an increase, not a saving. Nobody has yet been able to offer any long term guarantee about any of these 'substitute' jobs for displaced Guards, and it is very highly likely that these roles are merely a short term ploy to try and appease staff and encourage them to quietly take on roles which suit the wider agenda. Once Guards have been maneuvered into a position where they are no longer a requirement for the trains to run, management have open season to then do whatever they like with them - most likely the forcing upon them of new, far inferior contracts, or possibly even wholesale redundancy (as London Overground have done). For all the public statements of holy innocence by Mr Charles Horton, he is unable to offer his staff any assurances that they have any sort of long term employment with his company. He won't deliver any significant cost savings - the sole point of his DOO campaign - unless he takes far more drastic action further down the line. It does not take a genius to appreciate where the concerns lie, and how seriois those concerns are.

Those who pour scorn on the actions of striking Guards need to ask themselves this; if your employer wanted to reduce your pay, attack your livelihood, damage your ability to pay your mortgage and put food in your children's mouths, would you do nothing?!

 

[TheEdge]

Those who pour scorn on the actions of striking Guards need to ask themselves this; if your employer wanted to reduce your pay, attack your livelihood, damage your ability to pay your mortgage and put food in your children's mouths, would you do nothing?!

It would seem so. Most of the pro-DOO lot on here seem to think if something can be replaced by a robot or technology it should be, also the GSM-R is infalliable (HA!). I can only assume they are either all tech devs or in the "I'm alright Jack" camp.

 

[TEW]

It's unusual to see an SWT guard with their head out of a window as the train leaves the platform. And while it would be possible when despatching from a cab on Desiros and Junipers it's not possible with 455s as they are instructed to close the cab door before giving the bell.

Even if you can't put your head out the window you still must remain at the local door until the train has cleared the platform, so you should still spot any incidents or anybody giving a stop handsignal. A lot of guards do seem to put their head out the window on the 456s now.

 

[SPADTrap]

It would seem so. Most of the pro-DOO lot on here seem to think if something can be replaced by a robot or technology it should be, also the GSM-R is infalliable (HA!). I can only assume they are either all tech devs or in the "I'm alright Jack" camp.

Or the even worse 'it happened to me so you deserve it too' or the David Cameron effect - 'pay the same and get less for it'

I think deep down people like to see others suffer, but maybe that's just my observations.

 

[Bletchleyite]

From the GatEx thread, as it's more DOO/guard related:

Your not kidding on the euro front. I was recently in Dortmund and 'happened to find myself at the main station watching the comings and goings. A local(ish) train came in, formed of a 146 electric and 6 Double deck coaches. I watched dispatch. There were no platform staff I could see. The driver has to look out of his cab window until the train has reached about 5-10kmh. Time came to go. No whistle, but the 'guard' at the back waved, the driver, waved back and the doors closed. There were some latecomers, so the driver reopened the doors, no sign of the 'guard'. He then closed the doors again. Still some latecomers trying the doors as it moved. By now the driver was in his seat. And this was not some yokel station, but the main station of Dortmund with busy platforms. H&S and lawyers would have a field day in the UK with a bad dispatch as I saw. . I left the platform shaking my head.

That sounds very much like a new-style DOO operation to me. The driver is fully responsible for dispatch, and it is primarily done with the door interlock (yes, really, that's the hole in it to me) rather than using the Mk1 eyeball. It would seem that, like on the Swiss narrow gauge lines which are near enough all DOO, if there is a ticket examiner on board the driver waits for a tip just in case the ticket examiner wasn't on board or was dealing with an issue, but that tip is not safety-related and does not indicate that the guard has said the train is clear to depart.

In most places (except for some reason Hamburg Hbf, and some S-Bahnen) DB hasn't used platform staff for years, nor do most other European countries.

FWIW you can tell a DOO dispatch from a non-DOO one, because for a guarded dispatch you get the old "An Gleis N bitte einsteigen, Tueren schliessen selbsttaetig..." autoannouncer before the whistle (also absent on DOO) goes.

The guarded DB dispatch process (you'll see this on ICE/IC plus any remaining older regional stock) is much more like the UK one:-

1. Guard operates key in platform box, "An Gleis N..." announcement sounds.
2. Guard blows whistle.
3. Guard checks doors are clear and operates key to close doors except local door. (It is notable that like on Voyagers doors on DB are released, if not done automatically on dropping below 5km/h as on very old stock, by the driver)
4. Guard confirms doors are closed, and either (depending on station) operates key in platform box to give RA, shows the RA bat to the driver, or if very close says clearly "Abfahren, bitte".
5. Driver departs. Guard remains at open local door and watches train out of platform.
6. Guard closes local door and proceeds with other duties.

Notably on DB a guard never dispatches from the cab, only ever from a passenger door.

Also worth adding that under the new DOO the doors close of their own accord like lift doors and will not close if obstructed (both using a beam and edge detection, I think). If they are, the driver has to leave the cab, walk back and operate a switch on the door to override the check. Wouldn't work in the UK - people would deliberately block them. The driver can only lock them from the cab, not initiate a forced closure. This is similar to how rear doors work on German buses.

 

[sarahj]

From the GatEx thread, as it's more DOO/guard related:



That sounds very much like a new-style DOO operation to me. The driver is fully responsible for dispatch, and it is primarily done with the door interlock (yes, really, that's the hole in it to me) rather than using the Mk1 eyeball. It would seem that, like on the Swiss narrow gauge lines which are near enough all DOO, if there is a ticket examiner on board the driver waits for a tip just in case the ticket examiner wasn't on board or was dealing with an issue, but that tip is not safety-related and does not indicate that the guard has said the train is clear to depart.

In most places (except for some reason Hamburg Hbf, and some S-Bahnen) DB hasn't used platform staff for years, nor do most other European countries.

FWIW you can tell a DOO dispatch from a non-DOO one, because for a guarded dispatch you get the old "An Gleis N bitte einsteigen, Tueren schliessen selbsttaetig..." autoannouncer before the whistle (also absent on DOO) goes.

The guarded DB dispatch process (you'll see this on ICE/IC plus any remaining older regional stock) is much more like the UK one:-

1. Guard operates key in platform box, "An Gleis N..." announcement sounds.
2. Guard blows whistle.
3. Guard checks doors are clear and operates key to close doors except local door. (It is notable that like on Voyagers doors on DB are released, if not done automatically on dropping below 5km/h as on very old stock, by the driver)
4. Guard confirms doors are closed, and either (depending on station) operates key in platform box to give RA, shows the RA bat to the driver, or if very close says clearly "Abfahren, bitte".
5. Driver departs. Guard remains at open local door and watches train out of platform.
6. Guard closes local door and proceeds with other duties.

Notably on DB a guard never dispatches from the cab, only ever from a passenger door.

Also worth adding that under the new DOO the doors close of their own accord like lift doors and will not close if obstructed (both using a beam and edge detection, I think). If they are, the driver has to leave the cab, walk back and operate a switch on the door to override the check. Wouldn't work in the UK - people would deliberately block them. The driver can only lock them from the cab, not initiate a forced closure. This is similar to how rear doors work on German buses.

The only thing I missed watching that departure was if the ZP9 (RA) light was lit. I saw it light up for an ICE departure earlier, but did not watch the actual dispatch sequence for that.

 

[Carlisle]

I think deep down people like to see others suffer, but maybe that's just my observations.

I think on this forum anyway theres no truth in that whatsoever , none of us have advocated compulsory redundancies, sackings pay cuts etc and pretty much everyone agrees Southern have been too harsh in removing travel and car park passes

 

[ComUtoR]

I think deep down people like to see others suffer, but maybe that's just my observations.

I'm not sure on that front. I see it more on the lines of "it happens to me" so "it should happen to everyone" rather than taking the stance of "it shouldn't happen"

 

[455driver]

It's unusual to see an SWT guard with their head out of a window as the train leaves the platform. And while it would be possible when despatching from a cab on Desiros and Junipers it's not possible with 455s as they are instructed to close the cab door before giving the bell.

When I was a guard on SWT it was permissible, actually expected, for us to remain at the open door and watch the train leave the platform and only close the door once the whole train was seen to be clear.

It is a simple change of instruction to go back to that, but of course health and safety would never allow it now.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That was also normal practice on Merseyrail. It was a significant safety step-back for the PTI when it was banned, and in my view there should be serious consideration given to modifying all stock without droplights in the cab (where dispatch is usually done from the cab) to retrofit them in some way, or as an alternative to fit DOO-style bodyside cameras but with the screens positioned for use by the guard.

As a possibly cheaper alternative, some kind of manual folding "barn door" could be added just inside the sliding cab door, perhaps?

 

[ComUtoR]

to retrofit them in some way, or as an alternative to fit DOO-style bodyside cameras but with the screens positioned for use by the guard.

Seems kinda pointless when Guards will no longer exist anywhere....

 

[Bletchleyite]

Seems kinda pointless when Guards will no longer exist anywhere....

There is that. But I do think a member of on-board staff (the Guard, preferably) should always be in a position to watch the train out of the platform and drop the tap if there is an emergency, until such time as the train is fully out of the platform, particularly at very busy locations where someone could be knocked/pushed/fall against the train after the RA has been given. If there is a concern about them falling out while doing so, that needs to be solved while allowing it to continue (e.g. by installing droplights), not banning it and thus making the PTI less safe.

 

[455driver]

There is that. But I do think a member of on-board staff (the Guard, preferably) should always be in a position to watch the train out of the platform and drop the tap if there is an emergency, until such time as the train is fully out of the platform, particularly at very busy locations where someone could be knocked/pushed/fall against the train after the RA has been given. If there is a concern about them falling out while doing so, that needs to be solved while allowing it to continue (e.g. by installing droplights), not banning it and thus making the PTI less safe.

Or just sue the driver because it is their responsibility, I mean there are loads of people that want to be drivers so replacing the few a year that get locked up wouldnt be a problem.

 

[ComUtoR]

But this entire debate is about DOO. I assume by your post you advocate for Guards to be retained and working practices increased for safety purposes. Everything you say makes absolute sense and perfectly valid but in a railway where DOO is the inevitability then its a total waste to retrofit or make any changes to working practices. Just remove the Guard and have DOO. Saving time, effort and oodles of cash in the process.

Any concerns you have simply don't exist on the DOO railway as its perfectly safe.

not banning it and thus making the PTI less safe.

Removing it altogether is the option they are going for.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, my post did assume that the train would have a guard. If it doesn't, that is another kettle of proverbial fish

 

[sarahj]

Well in another turn of events, on the day RMT os meeting with GTR another letter has been handed out to conductors.

Imagine low, then sink lower.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm glad I don't use SN very often, I think this is going to be a long period of pain

 

[driver_m]

Well in another turn of events, on the day RMT os meeting with GTR another letter has been handed out to conductors.

Imagine low, then sink lower.

Seen it. Horton will be getting the chance to pick the plank that he's going to walk at this rate. I feel so sorry for you having such appalling employers.