Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[ungreat]

No it is perfectly fair. The attitude of Southern / DFT / Wilkinson / Grayling / Perry and so on is a mixture of greed, outright nastiness and incompetency.
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I do not want the duties and stress (and criminal / legal liabilty) of the guard (nor the platform dispatcher and general station staff - because they are at risk too) of their job on top of my own.

Neither do I want nor demand massive pay rises (which in fact are usually given in return for handing all your conditions over). In fact I am personally quite happy with what I get, and my conditions of service.

I am quite willing to modernise by using proven modern driving techniques (press and call and risk triggered commentary). I am quite willing to use new technology such as GSMR and TMS systems. I'm even quite willing to open the train doors, or closing them (after receiving the 2 -1 bell code from the guard). I am open to the possibility of Sundays in the working week, and having to do more depot work on nights or whatnot. I am not interested in striking or screwing the job up for the sheer sake of it.

And yet I am portrayed as some dinosaur / union militant / hard leftist / Trotskyite / luddite / commie thug for being anti-DOO, a position shared by my driving colleagues, guard colleagues and station colleagues, the vast bulk of line managers (including my current ones) and regional managers I have spoken to on the topic.

And as for the guards' wanting more for less - in many cases gone are the days of riding in a van having a fag - modern "train managers" use all the latest ticketing equipment, have access to PIS equipment, smartphones filled with programs to find out about journey information and disruption, on many trains are situated in the train in public offices easily accessible to the public. The grade has modernised and is quite willing to use technology and has in many cases become far far more customer focused, than about coupling up buckeyes or whatever. Rather than wanting more for less, the guards are simply wanting to continue doing their duties safely in accordance with their contract, and are open to new ways of working, technology and whatever helps them ensure great customer service is provided, whilst having the support and backup to challenge anti-social behaviour. Even on franchises which may not have all the bells and whistles and modern stock, the grade is quick to modernise and make the most of new things - I have regularly taken trips out on the Northern 319s in the last year, and on every trip the guard has always been using intermediate door controls doing revenue and being visible, whilst ensuring train dispatch is safe too.

Much of the language against guards or unions or drivers assumes that all of us are all sat there chain smoking and playing cards, flying the red flag for communism whilst refusing to take the 47 and rake of Mark I's out, because a manager dared to enter the drivers' messroom without knocking on a Tuesday, or some other trivial rubbish. It's a complete nonsense.

This says it all for me.Top post

 

[gtr driver]

Generally I like to think I'm mostly obliging and progressive, I just don't agree that progressive means getting rid of a role I do well and see the value of every day.

And doesn't that say it all about this affair? There is NO progress in losing guards. It puts more stress on the drivers in so many ways. It makes the experience even less pleasant for passengers. Delays and cancellations will start increasing from drivers not being happy with their view of the train and failure of DOO equipment instead of the FAILURE of the company to provide a guard due to poor planning, rostering, recruitment etc. It is only a backward step.

If someone could say this will lead directly to a tangible cost saving for every passenger, I could understand why the public would support it, human nature being what it is, much as I would personally disagree, but there will be no such saving! Unless of course the guards are being sacrificed to pay for the ridiculous 15 minute delay repay. Which means Southern are going to be losing a hell of a lot of revenue during every rush hour and sometimes between.

 

[Robertj21a]

You're the only one making that assertion here. I don't know what the heck Scargill has to do with a dispute between GTR/DfT and the train guards...

Sorry if you couldn't understand the reference.

There have been assertions on the forum to the effect that many RMT members are 'dinosaurs', preferring to live in times long gone and not wishing to join 'the real world'. To many, Scargill probably epitomises that era.

My comment was just to recognise that not all RMT members are 'dinosaurs'. I hope that's clearer for you.

 

[Tetchytyke]

So why bother introducing the OBS role why not make all guards redundant or displace them if they are not required?

Move them to the OBS role, freeze their pay and take away their perks, and the good ones will probably leave of their own volition. Statutory redundancy can be up to £14,500 per person, contractual redundancy will be higher, but if you offer them "suitable alternative work" you don't need to pay it. That's a huge wedge of cash to save.

There is also the PR benefit. You can reduce it to "this is an argument about who closes the doors"- an argument you yourself have lapped up enthusiastically- which undermines the position of the staff.

ETA I'm not railway staff so I'm not as eloquent on the matter as Don King and LowLevel, and what they have said has smashed the nail on the head with a geet big hammer.

 

[Carlisle]

And as for the guards' wanting more for less - in many cases gone are the days of riding in a van having a fag - modern "train managers" use all the latest ticketing equipment, have access to PIS equipment, smartphones filled with programs to find out about journey information and disruption, on many trains are situated in the train in public offices easily accessible to the public. The grade has modernised and is quite willing to use technology and has in many cases become far far more customer focused, than about coupling up buckeyes or whatever. Rather than wanting more for less, the guards are simply wanting to continue doing their duties safely in accordance with their contract, and are open to new ways of working, technology and whatever helps them ensure great customer service is provided, whilst having the support and backup to challenge anti-social behaviour. Even on franchises which may not have all the bells and whistles and modern stock, the grade is quick to modernise and make the most of new things - I have regularly taken trips out on the Northern 319s in the last year, and on every trip the guard has always been using intermediate door controls doing revenue and being visible, whilst ensuring train dispatch is safe too.
.

I completely agree that the vast majority of guards do a graat job day in day out and sometimes in very challenging circumstances, However that doesn't automatically translate to GTR/ DFT/ Wilko or whoever being worse than scum simply for standing up to the unions attempts to grind them into submission over a long period, merely for having the nerve to propose reasonable change that many within the railway expected to happen years ago on the likes of Southern

 

[Deepgreen]

No it is perfectly fair. The attitude of Southern / DFT / Wilkinson / Grayling / Perry and so on is a mixture of greed, outright nastiness and incompetency.
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I do not want the duties and stress (and criminal / legal liabilty) of the guard (nor the platform dispatcher and general station staff - because they are at risk too) of their job on top of my own.

Neither do I want nor demand massive pay rises (which in fact are usually given in return for handing all your conditions over). In fact I am personally quite happy with what I get, and my conditions of service.

I am quite willing to modernise by using proven modern driving techniques (press and call and risk triggered commentary). I am quite willing to use new technology such as GSMR and TMS systems. I'm even quite willing to open the train doors, or closing them (after receiving the 2 -1 bell code from the guard). I am open to the possibility of Sundays in the working week, and having to do more depot work on nights or whatnot. I am not interested in striking or screwing the job up for the sheer sake of it.

And yet I am portrayed as some dinosaur / union militant / hard leftist / Trotskyite / luddite / commie thug for being anti-DOO, a position shared by my driving colleagues, guard colleagues and station colleagues, the vast bulk of line managers (including my current ones) and regional managers I have spoken to on the topic.

And as for the guards' wanting more for less - in many cases gone are the days of riding in a van having a fag - modern "train managers" use all the latest ticketing equipment, have access to PIS equipment, smartphones filled with programs to find out about journey information and disruption, on many trains are situated in the train in public offices easily accessible to the public. The grade has modernised and is quite willing to use technology and has in many cases become far far more customer focused, than about coupling up buckeyes or whatever. Rather than wanting more for less, the guards are simply wanting to continue doing their duties safely in accordance with their contract, and are open to new ways of working, technology and whatever helps them ensure great customer service is provided, whilst having the support and backup to challenge anti-social behaviour. Even on franchises which may not have all the bells and whistles and modern stock, the grade is quick to modernise and make the most of new things - I have regularly taken trips out on the Northern 319s in the last year, and on every trip the guard has always been using intermediate door controls doing revenue and being visible, whilst ensuring train dispatch is safe too.

Much of the language against guards or unions or drivers assumes that all of us are all sat there chain smoking and playing cards, flying the red flag for communism whilst refusing to take the 47 and rake of Mark I's out, because a manager dared to enter the drivers' messroom without knocking on a Tuesday, or some other trivial rubbish. It's a complete nonsense.

I agree with the bulk of this commendable post. However, regarding Southern in particular, and several other TOCs more generally, "modern" guards/TMs/OBSs/Conductors all too rarely actually use these pieces of equipment. Those that do, almost by definition, are very diligent and a credit to the railway, but far too many simply do not do ticket checks, or even move away from whichever door they are using for their operations, even on stretches of journey where the inter-station times are easily sufficient to permit this - e.g. (to cite my specific daily experiences) Coulsdon South to East Croydon (including the usual several minutes' stop at Stoats Nest Junction), East Croydon to Clapham Junction, London Bridge to East Croydon, and so on.

I would prefer the retention of traditional guards, but OBSs, or whatever they are to be called, need to demonstrate that they actually are more visible on-train presences, or the entire shoddily-executed campaign by Southern will have been in vain.

 

[BestWestern]

I completely agree that the vast majority of guards do a graat job day in day out and sometimes in very challenging circumstances, However that doesn't automatically translate to GTR/ DFT/ Wilko or whoever being worse than scum simply for standing up to the unions attempts to grind them into submission over a long period, merely for having the nerve to propose reasonable change that many within the railway expected to happen years ago on the likes of Southern

GTR could have achieved their aims without the malicious and downright nasty attacks on their own people. Staff will strike if you attempt to force them out of their jobs, whether some might agree with the end goal or not. Removing the basic provisions that allow those staff to attend work (parking permits, staff travel passes) and taking excessive amounts of money from them is a deeply, deeply unfortunate way to behave. Followed by launching a social media campaign that was, frankly, disgusting. GTR are picking a fight with their staff, not the other way around, and they have behaved with all the dignity and professionalism of a gang of thugs. Your calls of sympathy for them will find few friends here I'm afraid.

 

[Antman]

GTR could have achieved their aims without the malicious and downright nasty attacks on their own people. Staff will strike if you attempt to force them out of their jobs, whether some might agree with the end goal or not. Removing the basic provisions that allow those staff to attend work (parking permits, staff travel passes) and taking excessive amounts of money from them is a deeply, deeply unfortunate way to behave. Followed by launching a social media campaign that was, frankly, disgusting. GTR are picking a fight with their staff, not the other way around, and they have behaved with all the dignity and professionalism of a gang of thugs. Your calls of sympathy for them will find few friends here I'm afraid.

Well I'm obviously not involved in this, and I might obviously feel differently if I were, but from a public perspective it's hard what GTR have done that is so dreadful?

 

[BestWestern]

Well I'm obviously not involved in this, and I might obviously feel differently if I were, but from a public perspective it's hard what GTR have done that is so dreadful?

You don't think that taking parking permits from your own staff, for absolutely no valid reason whatsoever, so that they have to pay every day merely to park their vehicle at their place of work, where ample facilites exist, is unreasonable? And at the same time removing their travel passes, so they cannot even travel on their own employer's services - the very trains they work on each day! - and instructing your revenue staff to make sure they target those staff when they travel. You don't think that is a pretty disgraceful way to behave? And the Twitter campaign, deliberately stoking the flames with the travelling public, which only a total idiot would think isn't going to incite anger towards frontline staff. You think that's perfectly reasonable, seriously?

As I have explained previously, GTR has a duty of care to it's staff. Yes, it's a pain in the backside for them that those pesky staff are taking industrial action and not just bending over for them, but that is what happens when you mess with people's jobs. It isn't rocket science. The aim here is, ultimately, to put those people out of work. It's very simple. Resisting that because they'd rather not be unemployed does not make those staff bad people, or the RMT a big bad monster. If an employer chooses to target the jobs of some of it's employees, there is a very good chance they will take some form of action. They are allowed to do that; they are all the 'small people' while their employer who makes millions. Staff relations comes with the territory. So do the huge profits and fat paycheques. Staff going on strike does not mean it's fine to use guerilla warfare tactics to wipe them out.

You should apply for a GTR management role.

 

[Deepgreen]

You don't think that taking parking permits from your own staff, for absolutely no valide reason whatsoever, so that they have to pay station parking prices every day merely to attend work, is unreasonable? And at the same time removing their travel passes, so they cannot even travel on their own employer's services - the very trains they work on each day! - and instructing your revenue staff to make sure they target those staff when they travel, is a pretty disgraceful way to behave? Seriously?

You should apply for a GTR management role.

It would be interesting to know which elements of the punitive measures taken genuinely emanated from GTR itself, and which were from the HMG puppet masters. While I am not defending GTR in the slightest (acknowledging that their performance and general attitude was dire well before this dispute), it may be unfair to attribute every single element of the disgraceful campaign to their management rather than HMG mandarins.

 

[BestWestern]

It would be interesting to know which elements of the punitive measures taken genuinely emanated from GTR itself, and which were from the HMG puppet masters. While I am not defending GTR in the slightest (acknowledging that their performance and general attitude was dire well before this dispute), it may be unfair to attribute every single element of the disgraceful campaign to their management rather than HMG mandarins.

Very true. But when I say GTR - and I would imagine this probably applies to many of us here - I'm referring rather specifically to a few very senior individuals who are behind all of this. Beyond Connex Charlie, the witch (who I think has now taken her 'management skills' on to some other poor godforsaken organisation?) and junior henchman McCarthy, I doubt there are very many others who like what is going on at all.

 

[Antman]

You don't think that taking parking permits from your own staff, for absolutely no valid reason whatsoever, so that they have to pay every day merely to park their vehicle at their place of work, where ample facilites exist, is unreasonable? And at the same time removing their travel passes, so they cannot even travel on their own employer's services - the very trains they work on each day! - and instructing your revenue staff to make sure they target those staff when they travel. You don't think that is a pretty disgraceful way to behave? And the Twitter campaign, deliberately stoking the flames with the travelling public, which only a total idiot would think isn't going to incite anger towards frontline staff. You think that's perfectly reasonable, seriously?

As I have explained previously, GTR has a duty of care to it's staff. Yes, it's a pain in the backside for them that those pesky staff are taking industrial action and not just bending over for them, but that is what happens when you mess with people's jobs. It isn't rocket science. The aim here is, ultimately, to put those people out of work. It's very simple. Resisting that because they'd rather not be unemployed does not make those staff bad people, or the RMT a big bad monster. If an employer chooses to target the jobs of some of it's employees, there is a very good chance they will take some form of action. They are allowed to do that; they are all the 'small people' while their employer who makes millions. Staff relations comes with the territory. So do the huge profits and fat paycheques. Staff going on strike does not mean it's fine to use guerilla warfare tactics to wipe them out.

You should apply for a GTR management role.

I don't know the full story behind the car park and travel permits and from what I saw of the twitter campaign it wasn't that bad. Passengers are pretty angry at both sides.

 

[Carlisle]

I don't know the full story behind the car park and travel permits and from what I saw of the twitter campaign it wasn't that bad. Passengers are pretty angry at both sides.

Yes don't forget Scotrail tried to implement a similar DOO/DCD scheme without any of the so called Southern anti staff negativity and still couldn't make any progress with the unions

 

[Tetchytyke]

Yes don't forget Scotrail tried to implement a similar DOO/DCD scheme without any of the so called Southern anti staff negativity and still couldn't make any progress with the unions

Except they did, because that dispute was resolved...

 

[cjmillsnun]

I don't know the full story behind the car park and travel permits and from what I saw of the twitter campaign it wasn't that bad. Passengers are pretty angry at both sides.

The details are in this thread. http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=2540368&postcount=470

 

[Carlisle]

Except they did, because that dispute was resolved...

That's your opinion, I think realistically most railwaymen would admit privately anyway they simply caved in for the quiet life

 

[Tetchytyke]

I think realistically most railwaymen would admit privately anyway they simply caved in for the quiet life

Compromise is always about both sides getting what neither of them wanted.

Both DCO disputes on Scotrail were resolved. The GTR dispute is not resolved.

 

[Mintona]

That's your opinion, I think realistically most railwaymen would admit privately anyway they simply caved in for the quiet life

I've lost count of the number of posts you've made where you appear disappointed at the Scotrail resolution. And how terrible it is that staff keep their jobs, trains are still fully crewed and the passengers have a point of reference on every train.

A compromise has been reached, which works for both sides, and it doesn't matter how many times you post about it on an enthusiast's forum, the outcome won't be changed.

 

[Carlisle]

I've lost count of the number of posts you've made where you appear disappointed at the Scotrail resolution. And how terrible it is that staff keep their jobs, trains are still fully crewed and the passengers have a point of reference on every train.

A compromise has been reached, which works for both sides, and it doesn't matter how many times you post about it on an enthusiast's forum, the outcome won't be changed.

It's not really a compromise though is it ? it's more just caving in, a genuine compromise would have resembled something like a garunteed conductor on every train in service with drivers doing the doors like the Javelins , I guess your not too happy Southern aren't following suit

 

[Don King]

I completely agree that the vast majority of guards do a graat job day in day out and sometimes in very challenging circumstances, However that doesn't automatically translate to GTR/ DFT/ Wilko or whoever being worse than scum simply for standing up to the unions attempts to grind them into submission over a long period, merely for having the nerve to propose reasonable change that many within the railway expected to happen years ago on the likes of Southern

There is nothing reasonable about DOO. Us who actually do the job who have experienced the reality of what goes on out there know it is inherently dangerous and has zero benefit except to a tiny minority at the very top of the pyramid. It beggars belief that handing PTI duties (the most dangerous part of the network) onto drivers using useless CCTV - the worst form of dispatch possible - when the industry is already worried about driver distraction, spads and fatigue, not to mention making them the sole person with PTS and authority to protect the line and evacuate the train. No driver I speak to wants DOO, and many drivers I know have transferred to other depots or companies purely to get away from it - simply because the risks involving the additional duties are just too high - both to their job, overall driving career and ultimately personal liberty, let alone the risks of assault and abuse.

Wilkinson is a thug who used his high profile position to lie, abuse, insult and threaten drivers and guards. If Whelan or Lynch said they would smash Wilkinson in the same way, it would be treated in the media as union hate crime. His words were as far as I am concerned a declaration of open warfare on me and my collegues. The politest thing I can say about him is that he is a liar who shows complete contempt for us.

The DFT and GTR have hardly behaved honourably either. The behaviour shown has been nothing but brutal.

Should the union do everything it can to scupper DOO and station destaffing. Yes they should. They are reflecting the views of traincrew regardless of grade, experience, political affilation and so on. Ultimately Wilkinson and friends will not be on a CDP, demoted, sacked or in the dock due to their changes. My colleagues and I will be the collateral damage in them.
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It's not a compromise it's just caving in to union pressure and your just bitter Southern aren't following suit

Why do you have such a love for DOO? Have you ever dispatched or evacuated a train?

 

[Robertj21a]

There is nothing reasonable about DOO. Us who actually do the job who have experienced the reality of what goes on out there know it is inherently dangerous and has zero benefit except to a tiny minority at the very top of the pyramid. It beggars belief that handing PTI duties (the most dangerous part of the network) onto drivers using useless CCTV - the worst form of dispatch possible - when the industry is already worried about driver distraction, spads and fatigue, not to mention making them the sole person with PTS and authority to protect the line and evacuate the train. No driver I speak to wants DOO, and many drivers I know have transferred to other depots or companies purely to get away from it - simply because the risks involving the additional duties are just too high - both to their job, overall driving career and ultimately personal liberty, let alone the risks of assault and abuse.

Wilkinson is a thug who used his high profile position to lie, abuse, insult and threaten drivers and guards. If Whelan or Lynch said they would smash Wilkinson in the same way, it would be treated in the media as union hate crime. His words were as far as I am concerned a declaration of open warfare on me and my collegues. The politest thing I can say about him is that he is a liar who shows complete contempt for us.

The DFT and GTR have hardly behaved honourably either. The behaviour shown has been nothing but brutal.

Should the union do everything it can to scupper DOO and station destaffing. Yes they should. They are reflecting the views of traincrew regardless of grade, experience, political affilation and so on. Ultimately Wilkinson and friends will not be on a CDP, demoted, sacked or in the dock due to their changes. My colleagues and I will be the collateral damage in them.
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Why do you have such a love for DOO? Have you ever dispatched or evacuated a train?

I've been very supportive of many of your posts, but not this one. You're now harking back to the personal abuse and accusations against named individuals - which tends to be a regular, and very regrettable, undercurrent in postings from many union members. It comes over (to me at least) that the union 'dinosaur' can't actually now be dead after all as the ancient terminology and name-calling is back with a vengeance.

 

[Deepgreen]

There is nothing reasonable about DOO. Us who actually do the job who have experienced the reality of what goes on out there know it is inherently dangerous and has zero benefit except to a tiny minority at the very top of the pyramid. It beggars belief that handing PTI duties (the most dangerous part of the network) onto drivers using useless CCTV - the worst form of dispatch possible - when the industry is already worried about driver distraction, spads and fatigue, not to mention making them the sole person with PTS and authority to protect the line and evacuate the train. No driver I speak to wants DOO, and many drivers I know have transferred to other depots or companies purely to get away from it - simply because the risks involving the additional duties are just too high - both to their job, overall driving career and ultimately personal liberty, let alone the risks of assault and abuse.

Wilkinson is a thug who used his high profile position to lie, abuse, insult and threaten drivers and guards. If Whelan or Lynch said they would smash Wilkinson in the same way, it would be treated in the media as union hate crime. His words were as far as I am concerned a declaration of open warfare on me and my collegues. The politest thing I can say about him is that he is a liar who shows complete contempt for us.

The DFT and GTR have hardly behaved honourably either. The behaviour shown has been nothing but brutal.

Should the union do everything it can to scupper DOO and station destaffing. Yes they should. They are reflecting the views of traincrew regardless of grade, experience, political affilation and so on. Ultimately Wilkinson and friends will not be on a CDP, demoted, sacked or in the dock due to their changes. My colleagues and I will be the collateral damage in them.
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Why do you have such a love for DOO? Have you ever dispatched or evacuated a train?

This may or may not be true, but, assuming for a moment that it is, it is hard to see why the regime has not therefore been raised long before this as a 'to-the-death' strike issue.

 

[387star]

Are the INTERCITY 800s equipped with door control panels at all doors?

 

[BestWestern]

I don't know the full story behind the car park and travel permits and from what I saw of the twitter campaign it wasn't that bad. Passengers are pretty angry at both sides.

The 'full story'? What else are you expecting/hoping for, just out of interest?!

 

[ainsworth74]

Are the INTERCITY 800s equipped with door control panels at all doors?

I'm not sure what an INTERCITY 800 is but assuming you mean a Class 800 (and derivatives) then the technical specification has the following to say:

Door controls must be provided at each guard’s position, which shall as a minimum be at vehicle length intervals on passenger carrying IEP Vehicles each side of the IEP Train. These controls must allow for guard releasing and closing of the passenger doors.

 

[alastair]

There is nothing reasonable about DOO. Us who actually do the job who have experienced the reality of what goes on out there know it is inherently dangerous and has zero benefit except to a tiny minority at the very top of the pyramid. It beggars belief that handing PTI duties (the most dangerous part of the network) onto drivers using useless CCTV - the worst form of dispatch possible - when the industry is already worried about driver distraction, spads and fatigue, not to mention making them the sole person with PTS and authority to protect the line and evacuate the train. No driver I speak to wants DOO, and many drivers I know have transferred to other depots or companies purely to get away from it - simply because the risks involving the additional duties are just too high - both to their job, overall driving career and ultimately personal liberty, let alone the risks of assault and abuse.

Wilkinson is a thug who used his high profile position to lie, abuse, insult and threaten drivers and guards. If Whelan or Lynch said they would smash Wilkinson in the same way, it would be treated in the media as union hate crime. His words were as far as I am concerned a declaration of open warfare on me and my collegues. The politest thing I can say about him is that he is a liar who shows complete contempt for us.

The DFT and GTR have hardly behaved honourably either. The behaviour shown has been nothing but brutal.

Should the union do everything it can to scupper DOO and station destaffing. Yes they should. They are reflecting the views of traincrew regardless of grade, experience, political affilation and so on. Ultimately Wilkinson and friends will not be on a CDP, demoted, sacked or in the dock due to their changes. My colleagues and I will be the collateral damage in them.
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Why do you have such a love for DOO? Have you ever dispatched or evacuated a train?

You have previously made interesting points but I think you have lost the plot here.

How can you possibly say that a procedure that operates thousands of times a day and has done on innumerable services for 30 plus years is "not reasonable" and is "inherently dangerous"? If CCTV is really "useless" then why isnt ASLEF for example shouting about it,briefing journalists ect.

You give the impression that DOO drivers are at risk of prison if they make a mistake with PTI/dispatch. Please tell us how many existing DOO drivers have been imprisoned,or even charged with this type of offence.

 

[Chrisgr31]

You have previously made interesting points but I think you have lost the plot here.

How can you possibly say that a procedure that operates thousands of times a day and has done on innumerable services for 30 plus years is "not reasonable" and is "inherently dangerous"? If CCTV is really "useless" then why isnt ASLEF for example shouting about it,briefing journalists ect.

You give the impression that DOO drivers are at risk of prison if they make a mistake with PTI/dispatch. Please tell us how many existing DOO drivers have been imprisoned,or even charged with this type of offence.

It is a big surprise to me that the drivers in some of the cases that the RAIB have not been charged. In a number of cases the RAIB have concluded that the driver should have seen the person who was trapped and dragged but didnt. Reasons for this have been thought to be the drivers looking at the screen and seeing what they expected to see rather than what was there, and potentially not looking at them.

The charging of a guard who appears to have followed the correct departure procedure has I suspect worried drivers that they might be charged. That case has yet to reach courts so we wait to see what they say.

The risk of a trap and drag case is relatively rare, but seems to be more common with DOO bearing in mind that the RAIB have investigated more DOO cases than they have guard cases and DOO affects only 30% of trains.

 

[Don King]

I've been very supportive of many of your posts, but not this one. You're now harking back to the personal abuse and accusations against named individuals - which tends to be a regular, and very regrettable, undercurrent in postings from many union members. It comes over (to me at least) that the union 'dinosaur' can't actually now be dead after all as the ancient terminology and name-calling is back with a vengeance.

I suggest we go back to what Peter Wilkinson actually said:

http://www.croydonadvertiser.co.uk/department-transport-says-break-train-drivers/story-28783309-detail/story.html

Firstly Peter Wilkinson has chosen to put himself in the public eye with his statements at a public meeting. He is a very highly renumerated senior public servant, not some unfortunate lower level member of staff who has been unfairly outed. So yes he is a "named individual" by choice.

Secondly I described him as a liar. This is a statement of fact. Wilkinson stated "train drivers are paid high salaries of about £60,000 a year or more to work three days a week, with no obligation to work on Sundays. He told the meeting drivers still have the same "fire break" rest stops as they did when trains were run on coal.". This is a lie. Wilkinson is a senior official - he is not speaking from ignorance. Very few drivers are paid £60,000, bar possibly Virgin West Coast and Eurostar.

No one works a 3 day week unless they job share, or are part time i.e. childcare or winding down for retirement. They would not earn £60,000 per year even if it was the basic salary, but would earn pro rata what the basic salary is. In some companies they would even earn less than this, due to not getting shift allowances. The least full time drivers work is a 4 day week. Otherwise they work a 5 day week. Again Wilkinson tells a lie.

Wilkinson states drivers have no obligation to work Sundays. This varies massively. It is in many cases also a lie - many of these 4 day week drivers are obliged to work their Sundays, if they cannot be covered - in other words they work a 7 day week. Perhaps Wilkinson would like to take a look at a few traincrew rosters, local agreements and contracts before spouting his mouth off. I am sure the drivers who have had their Sunday N/A declined would have something rather blunt to say to him about it.

Wilkinson also lies about "fire breaks". There is no such thing. The official position is that the conditions surrounding breaks are negotiated between Unions and TOCs, taking into account EU and UK law, and the small matter of the recommendations by Sir Anthony Hidden QC after the investigation into the Clapham Junction crash revealed staff were working ridiculous hours. Rather more boring and less sensational than Wilkinson's claims.

Thirdly I described him as a thug and his behaviour was abusive. Again from the article, Wilkinson states that "Over the next three years we're going to be having punch ups", "we have got to break them", "They have all borrowed money to buy cars and got credit cards, "They can't afford to spend too long on strike and I will push them into that place", and "They will have to decide if they want to give a good service or get the hell out of my industry."

The inferance from these statements, is that Wilkinson is looking for a fight, wants to smash the drivers and portrays them as reckless spenders, who he can toe into line by the threat or action of rendering them impoverished. This would be described as bullying and threatening. He also implies that the rail industry is his, and everything he says is the law, and anyone who disagrees should be smashed and thrown out of a job. This is not the behaviour of someone who wants either a reasoned discussion, or to argue respectfully about why his changes are to be embraced.

You would have a very valid point about the use of language in my post if Peter Wilkinson said "I wish to implement reforms and work with the TOCs, unions, staff and passenger groups to achieve them - even if they may not be universally popular", or words to that effect - implying that adult discussions with all stakeholders is the way forward, even if there were disagreements. He did not. He deliberately sought to abuse and intimidate train drivers, and lie about their pay and conditions to stoke the fire. His words were not those of debate, but were words of war.

As for the actions of GTR - people have mentioned it before, but docking money from staff for work they actually did, seizing their car park passes and travel passes so they cannot get into work, and then having a very public campaign encouraging people to harass the union lead to actual physical violence against their staff. This is not the actions of a responsible employer, but of bullying, incompetence and thuggery. I disagree vehemently with the conversion of the North London Line and Gatwick Express to DOO and increases in DOO in C2C, but there was none of this sort of behaviour when it happened.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You have previously made interesting points but I think you have lost the plot here.

How can you possibly say that a procedure that operates thousands of times a day and has done on innumerable services for 30 plus years is "not reasonable" and is "inherently dangerous"? If CCTV is really "useless" then why isnt ASLEF for example shouting about it,briefing journalists ect.

You give the impression that DOO drivers are at risk of prison if they make a mistake with PTI/dispatch. Please tell us how many existing DOO drivers have been imprisoned,or even charged with this type of offence.

The CCTV is useless. I have seen it from the driver's viewpoint. Rain, sunlight, snow, fog, even passengers with umbrellas distort the view. It is impossible to tell from it, if someone is jabbing a door button or has something trapped in the doors. It has blind spots. It also has a time delay. It has no proper field of vision, no way of seeing the wider platform - e.g. entrances and exists so impossible to see the late runner / stumbling drunk until too late. Even DOO mirrors at least give a view of the whole train and a large amount of the platform, and they are hardly brilliant. Not to mention the issues with the driver having no direct contact with the passengers on the platform anyway.

If we look at the RAIB reports for dispatch related incidents, the bulk are where the method is self dispatch using CCTV - both on the mainline and tube - Huntingdon, West Wickham, Hayes and Harlington, and the numerous tube ones for starters.

As for imprisonment, yes it is a realistic prospect - and I also mentioned the fact that PTI incidents lead to CDP's, demotions and sackings which is very common - I have it on fairly good authority that the drivers at both the West Wickham and Hayes and Harlington incidents were dismissed, and the CPS did get involved but no charges brought.

Certainly drivers have been demoted for PTI related incidents as well, or for SaSpads caused by being distracted due to passenger behaviour on platforms. We are not in the old days where such things are brushed under the carpet, or a "don't be an idiot" dressing down and then forgotten about say no more style of old school management. Such things can have very very serious ramifications for a driver's job.

As for imprisonment - the case of Christopher McGee. Now we can debate all day whether he was a madman / reckless / incompetent / treated too leniently or a scapegoat / made an honest mistake / should never have been done - but the blunt reality is that make a PTI mistake and this is what happens. There is no way that a lone driver locked away in a cab - on the offside in this case, using CCTV is somehow going to be in a better position to deal with drunks / vulnerable minors on platforms, than a guard who has direct contact with the individual and knows to a greater or lesser extent what passengers he is carrying and what state they are in. CCTV will not tell a driver if someone is a vulnerable minor, whether they are drunk / on drugs / have learning difficulties or mental health issues or anything much else.

Martin Zee is also facing court too, and it appears for merely following the rule book - traincrew I am afraid are well aware of exactly what the risks are - and please bear in mind that PTI / trap and drag and the threat of dismissal and prosecution, are brought up regularly in safety briefs by managers. This is not some hypothetical scaremongering. If your own company are telling you, you can risk imprisonment for making a mistake during dispatch, do you think drivers want to take on the liablity for this on top of everything else? I spoke to a manager a while back who said he was concerned that some very new drivers thought that if they had a spad or make a mistake that the worst would happen to them would be suspension and retraining - it hadn't been fully drummed into them that the worst that could happen would be either their own death or the death of a member of the public or another member of traincrew - and the subsequent fall out. Management are playing the hard line ramming it through now about the ramifications of such things - and I agree 100% with them for doing so.

It is by luck that no drivers have to my knowledge actually been jailed for anything of this nature - though it should be noted that drivers who have caused train crashes in the past have rarely been prosecuted - and even if they have, the sentences have been fairly trivial, so harsh sentencing for staff is a fairly new phenomenon. The Zee trial regardless of which way it goes will be very interesting and will almost certainly lead to even more caution and unwillingness to take on extra duties which could land someone in the dock.

 

[Carlisle]

I suggest we go back to what Peter Wilkinson actually said:

http://www.croydonadvertiser.co.uk/department-transport-says-break-train-drivers/story-28783309-detail/story.html


You would have a very valid point about the use of language in my post if Peter Wilkinson said "I wish to implement reforms and work with the TOCs, unions, staff and passenger groups to achieve them - even if they may not be universally popular", or words to that effect - implying that adult discussions with all stakeholders is the way forward, even if there were disagreements. He did not. He deliberately sought to abuse and intimidate train drivers, and lie about their pay and conditions to stoke the fire. His words were not those of debate, but were words of war.

Ok Wilko and Southern haven't handled things particularly well , but that's all a bit of a sideshow, the unions were digging in for this fight in a major way ever since the mc nulty report was published in 2011 and even if Mother Teresa had been at the helm of the DFT I doubt it would have made much difference unless she'd capitulated to virtually all the unions demands

 

[Don King]

Ok Wilko and Southern haven't handled things particularly well , but that's all a bit of a sideshow, the reality is that the unions were digging in for this fight ever since the mc nulty report in 2011 and even if Mother Teresa had been at the helm of the DFT I doubt it would have made much difference unless she'd capitulated to all their demands

The unions represent their members - which are drivers, guards, dispatch staff and even managers (TSSA) - who do not want DOO and / or removal of dispatchers.

The McNulty report is not a bible to run the railway by, in the same way the Serpell report was not. It is fundamentally a set of suggestions, in the same way the IEA can argue for the privatisation of Network Rail or the privatisation of the police.