Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[DT611]

So GTR has a signed agreement from Mick Whelan to operate 12-car class 377s DOO on the Brighton mainline for Thameslink service. Now they are seeking exactly the same for further GTR services on the BML and they are causing this much chaos.

Because times have changed and what they agreed to then isn't workable now.

Mick Whelan do the honourable thing and resign .... you have made yourself a laughing stock ... hang your head in shame!

changing ones mind on the basis of evidence from those who have day to day experience doesn't make one a laughing stock i'm afraid. Mick won't be hanging his head in shame and hopefully he will not resign.

With guards then causing issues just for the remaining 27% of Southern services ... I bet the users of those services will be calling for them to go DOO so they can no longer cause them further misery

They may do so, but they don't make the decisians.

Exactly, commuters now rather than feeling sorry for people who will be losing their jobs down the line just want to see the back of the onboard staff.

Even before the strike action trains were routinely cancelled because an irrelevant member of staff had been displaced or was ill.

In what way are drivers irrelevant members of staff? Maybe if GTR employed enough of them they're wouldn't be cancelations.

 

[maniacmartin]

Excellent news that RMT are striking next week. It will save the taxpayer a great deal of money,cost RMT £18,000 in strike pay & prove to the public how pointless the guards' job is as 75% of trains will run. ( if ASLEF settle & they may not)
Tuesday will be interesting. Allegedly a full service, but will Network Rail mess it up as they have oddly & regularly during the dispute?

I bet there won't be a full service and it won't be excellent news for commuters. I'm not so sure taxpayers will be so keen on the loss of economic activity caused by people having to take the Monday off work.

 

[Astradyne]

Because times have changed and what they agreed to then isn't workable now.



changing ones mind on the basis of evidence from those who have day to day experience doesn't make one a laughing stock i'm afraid. Mick won't be hanging his head in shame and hopefully he will not resign.



They may do so, but they don't make the decisians.



In what way are drivers irrelevant members of staff? Maybe if GTR employed enough of them they're wouldn't be cancelations.

Times have changed have they. Where has anyone ever claimed that Thameslink services were unsafe. None that I know of. Only a few staff members on here whose qualification to make such judgements has been regularly overstated. What Thameslink incidents have there been on the Brighton Mainline?

73% of Southern services are now DOO. As you used to tell me 30% does not matter, so 27% now matters even less.

Seriously are you proud of the ASLEF union and their leader ... maybe only if your expectations are so low.

 

[DT611]

Times have changed have they. Where has anyone ever claimed that Thameslink services were unsafe. None that I know of. Only a few staff members on here whose qualification to make such judgements has been regularly overstated. What Thameslink incidents have there been on the Brighton Mainline?

73% of Southern services are now DOO. As you used to tell me 30% does not matter, so 27% now matters even less.

Seriously are you proud of the ASLEF union and their leader ... maybe only if your expectations are so low.

It's not up to me to be proud of the ASLEF union and their leader. It's up to the members to be proud of the ASLEF union and their leader.

 

[BestWestern]

So agreement to run TL services as 12 car DOO when they come to the BML? Forgive my ignorance and skim-reading; what has that to do with Southern? And is not highly likely to be the case that there is the dreaded 'agreement' for Thameslink stuff to be DOO, which Aslef just may feel could end up with another loss in court? Just a thought.

 

[Carlisle]

I bet there won't be a full service and it won't be excellent news for commuters. I'm not so sure taxpayers will be so keen on the loss of economic activity caused by people having to take the Monday off work.

Maybe not, but it's pretty clear by now the RMT don't give two hoots about any of those consequences you mention either

 

[Monty]

Excellent news that RMT are striking next week. It will save the taxpayer a great deal of money,cost RMT £18,000 in strike pay & prove to the public how pointless the guards' job is as 75% of trains will run. ( if ASLEF settle & they may not)
Tuesday will be interesting. Allegedly a full service, but will Network Rail mess it up as they have oddly & regularly during the dispute?

You truely are a piece of work, there are many here who have differing opinions but for the most part habe kept the discussion constructive and respectful. You on the other hand continue to take pleasure out of winding up members of this forum as they engage in a discussion about the future of their careers and livelihoods.

 

[BestWestern]

Maybe not, but it's pretty clear by now the RMT don't give two hoots about any of those consequences you mention either

Perhaps you could name for us those trade unions who, in recent times, have tailored their industrial action so that it doesn't cause inconvenience? The teachers?; the doctors?; the fire service? What type of successful industrial action are you aware of which occurs without causing a fuss?

You truely are a piece of work, there are many here who have differing opinions but for the most part habe kept the discussion constructive and respectful. You on the other hand continue to take pleasure out of winding up members of this forum as they engage in a discussion about the future of their careers and livelihoods.

The [insert preferred description here] - lets say 'the guy' - has an agenda. As they say, don't feed the troll!

 

[maniacmartin]

Maybe not, but it's pretty clear by now the RMT don't give two hoots about any of those consequences you mention either

Of course, but the whole point of a strike is to cause disruption. Otherwise, there wouldn't be any point in striking. My post was more aimed as a retort to XDM's gloating about how great the dispute supposedly is for everyone.

 

[Chester1]

What has Aslef been offered to suspend the strike? If they are seriously considering settling the dispute there must be a reason. Could it be more pay, door sensors, platform dispatchers or a mixture? Judging by the RMT reaction they are expecting a deal that suits drivers and shafts conductors and OBS.

 

[physics34]

So GTR has a signed agreement from Mick Whelan to operate 12-car class 377s DOO on the Brighton mainline for Thameslink service. Now they are seeking exactly the same for further GTR services on the BML and they are causing this much chaos.

Mick Whelan do the honourable thing and resign .... you have made yourself a laughing stock ... hang your head in shame!

With guards then causing issues just for the remaining 27% of Southern services ... I bet the users of those services will be calling for them to go DOO so they can no longer cause them further misery

Mick Whelan has done well. NO reason for him to resign. Mick Cash is a different kettle of fish though...

Your "hate" for guards is odd.. and obsessive for some reason.......

Milton Keynes services will eventually go DOO i presume when the London Midland side gets sorted....

Uckfields and Ashford - Hastings dont have incab monitors so are safe for now.

Not sure what is stopping the Leatherhead to Guildford line TBH.

 

[Llanigraham]

The slightest hint of a problem of their making (i.e.;infrastructure etc) and they demand GTR reduce the service.....

Oh dear!
Chip, shoulder!!

NR deal with whatever problems that occur in the best way they can, and if that means that they have to cause a reduction in service, then so be it. Perhaps you would prefer it if they said "Close the line completely"?

:roll::roll::roll:

 

[Andrew32]

What has Aslef been offered to suspend the strike? If they are seriously considering settling the dispute there must be a reason. Could it be more pay, door sensors, platform dispatchers or a mixture? Judging by the RMT reaction they are expecting a deal that suits drivers and shafts conductors and OBS.

Can't understand why RMT have been excluded and at the request of Aslef too.

 

[BestWestern]

As a side note here, and perhaps one for XDM; what has happened with the seemingly rather significant issue of Drivers requiring DOO training on quite a large scale? It appeared not long ago that this was another mess GTR had fumbled their way into. But now we have fanfares about 'normal service', which would rather suggest the problem has gone away?

 

[Andrew32]

Read it again, I've misunderstood.

 

[AlterEgo]

What has Aslef been offered to suspend the strike? If they are seriously considering settling the dispute there must be a reason. Could it be more pay, door sensors, platform dispatchers or a mixture? Judging by the RMT reaction they are expecting a deal that suits drivers and shafts conductors and OBS.

Seems too early to say. I expect they will have negotiated technological mitigation as a minimum and possibly a pay and/or terms deal to reflect the increasing responsibility.

We should wait for confirmation first.

 

[Juniper Driver]

You truely are a piece of work, there are many here who have differing opinions but for the most part habe kept the discussion constructive and respectful. You on the other hand continue to take pleasure out of winding up members of this forum as they engage in a discussion about the future of their careers and livelihoods.

There are a few on here who are taking great delight out of this.

Ironically an old school guard I worked with ignored me all day yesterday....I can't say I'm really surprised.

 

[tsr]

Milton Keynes services will eventually go DOO i presume when the London Midland side gets sorted....

Uckfields and Ashford - Hastings dont have incab monitors so are safe for now.

Not sure what is stopping the Leatherhead to Guildford line TBH.

Class 171 operated services can't run DOO because of the door deselect and release system for short platforms, of which there are many. This is also an important distinction.

I wouldn't be so sure about the services to Milton Keynes. I think it's more likely that the services to Watford Junction or Shepherd's Bush would go over to DOO first, as those routes are either cleared for DOO for other stock, or run parallel with lines which are. However, reading between the lines, it doesn't look like an important objective at the moment.

As for Guildford, a few DOO test trains have run, but I believe that under the theoretical full timetable, conductors are still meant to head down there on all of Southern's services. All bar one return trip is formed of 455 stock anyway, so you'd have to introduce fully-functioning DOO monitors at all the SWT-managed stations, which wouldn't go down very well, of course! Let alone the requirements for mandatory platform staff dispatch for Southern services on certain platforms at Guildford, which might not work with DOO either.

As a side note here, and perhaps one for XDM; what has happened with the seemingly rather significant issue of Drivers requiring DOO training on quite a large scale? It appeared not long ago that this was another mess GTR had fumbled their way into. But now we have fanfares about 'normal service', which would rather suggest the problem has gone away?

It hasn't gone away - it still crops up occasionally but I'd suggest there is always a chance for it to bubble up a bit more when the full planned DOO service is attempted. That last point is, I should add, speculation. Up until this week, it was causing some quite interesting problems, but presumably a stable number of briefed drivers is now available.

At the moment certain routes do not need the maximum potential number of appropriately trained drivers, so I guess the plan until next Tuesday is to select DOO-trained drivers only. The briefings seem to have been keeping a fairly low profile on the overall scale of things, and don't seem to be taking up excessive amounts of time when they are done.

 

[Carlisle]

Perhaps you could name for us those trade unions who, in recent times, have tailored their industrial action so that it doesn't cause inconvenience? The teachers?; the doctors?; the fire service? What type of successful industrial action are you aware of which occurs without causing a fuss?

Yes, that's true, but the crucial difference is that aside from the 1984 miners strike, has there in recent times been another such high profile dispute that's lasted for so long without agreement?

 

[BestWestern]

Yes, that's true, but the crucial difference is that aside from the 1984 miners strike, has there in recent times been another such high profile dispute that's lasted for so long without agreement?

What happened with the doctors in the end? Was that resolved somehow?

A very significant part of the problem with the Southern situation, of course, is that GTR's own deep incompetence has played a big part in the disruption, and has ensured that the service has been awful all the time, strike days or otherwise. Despite what the assembled battery of executive liars tells us, we know very well that they lack staff and have done for years. The problems are not being caused just by the strikers, although of course the strikes have hit hard.

 

[pompeyfan]

It would appear the whole situation is a mess, apparently trains between Havant and Portsmouth are currently double crewed with both a Conductor and an OBS!

There's numerous local stories of Wheelchair users being unable to board or overcarried, the OBS (ex RPI) have no emergency protection training and have little route knowledge (other then a list of stations with short platforms!

Interestingly too, a conductor (note not OBS) said the he would be happy not to do the doors, providing all current rules and competencies were retained.

 

[Robertj21a]

It would appear the whole situation is a mess, apparently trains between Havant and Portsmouth are currently double crewed with both a Conductor and an OBS!

There's numerous local stories of Wheelchair users being unable to board or overcarried, the OBS (ex RPI) have no emergency protection training and have little route knowledge (other then a list of stations with short platforms!

Interestingly too, a conductor (note not OBS) said the he would be happy not to do the doors, providing all current rules and competencies were retained.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It would appear the whole situation is a mess, apparently trains between Havant and Portsmouth are currently double crewed with both a Conductor and an OBS!

There's numerous local stories of Wheelchair users being unable to board or overcarried, the OBS (ex RPI) have no emergency protection training and have little route knowledge (other then a list of stations with short platforms!

Interestingly too, a conductor (note not OBS) said the he would be happy not to do the doors, providing all current rules and competencies were retained.

I thought the Havant - Portsmouth trains had OBS under training from a guard at present ?

 

[Astradyne]

Mick Whelan has done well. NO reason for him to resign. Mick Cash is a different kettle of fish though...

Your "hate" for guards is odd.. and obsessive for some reason.......

Milton Keynes services will eventually go DOO i presume when the London Midland side gets sorted....

Uckfields and Ashford - Hastings dont have incab monitors so are safe for now.

Not sure what is stopping the Leatherhead to Guildford line TBH.

Why is it odd ... Yes I hate them with a passion, they have caused nothing but grief and misery to Southern passengers for the past 12 months .... Their actions have convinced me DOO is the only way to go.

 

[pompeyfan]

Why is it odd ... Yes I hate them with a passion, they have caused nothing but grief and misery to Southern passengers for the past 12 months .... Their actions have convinced me DOO is the only way to go.

So you believe every single guard across national rail services should lose their jobs because the guards on one TOC went on strike to try and defend people's safety.... right.... I'll look forward to you paying my dole money then

Havant - Portsmouth is Guard with an OBS travelling as passenger, there's issues with dispatch from Southsea and the Harbour due to it being mandatory dispatch, but SWT dispatchers aren't trained in DOO-P dispatch.

 

[BestWestern]

Why is it odd ... Yes I hate them with a passion, they have caused nothing but grief and misery to Southern passengers for the past 12 months .... Their actions have convinced me DOO is the only way to go.

Just Guards, or Drivers as well?

 

[XDM]

Havant - Portsmouth is Guard with an OBS travelling as passenger, there's issues with dispatch from Southsea and the Harbour due to it being mandatory dispatch, but SWT dispatchers aren't trained in DOO-P dispatch.

Untrue. Southampton SWT staff are dispatching DOO Southern trains. No reason it can't soon be done in pompeyland.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Why is it odd ... Yes I hate them with a passion, they have caused nothing but grief and misery to Southern passengers for the past 12 months .... Their actions have convinced me DOO is the only way to go.

It's quite understandable why people loathe Southern guards & their union master. These 'guards' go on strike claiming it is to defend safety Yet in the early days of the strike they deliberately forced thousands of vulnerable people to travel by road or walk,both far more dangerous than going by rail,or miss critical hospital appointments. They forced wheelchair users to miss their trips, perhaps to hospital,by messing up the train service. The claim it is,& was for safety, is brazen hypocrisy & the British detest hypocrites. No wonder some people are rejoicing that these RMT people are soon going to have to work properly,i.e. answer questions,collect fares & be visible at last,or else they will have to leave our railway. In the past the RMT has threatened strikes over the sacking of the most awful guards. Now with no muscle, the worst can be taken off our railway & the best praised & promoted. As in the real world.

 

[OD2017]

What has the RMT actually done for its members in this dispute?

After months of industrial action the changes have still been forced through and it looks as though Aslef are about to do a deal without them.

The strikes next week won't achieve anything as most of the trains can run without them.

 

[pompeyfan]

Southampton is assisted dispatch, Southsea (and I believe the Harbour) are mandatory dispatch, ie you MUST be seen away by a dispatcher, as supposed to SOU...

 

[KTHV]

the British detest hypocrites.

How do you explain the popularity of Farage, May and Grayling then?

 

[vikingdriver]

Untrue. Southampton SWT staff are dispatching DOO Southern trains. No reason it can't soon be done in pompeyland.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

When I went through Southampton, Southern had a member of staff instructing the driver whilst the SWT staff were giving the tip to this Southern staff member.